How to stop biting

conniegirl

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Horses only ever bite me once! I make them think the world is ending and if the smack to their nose doesn’t make their ears ring they got off lightly.

As a result i have beautifully mannered horses, who can be handled by anyone, who never even think of nipping no matter how many treats they are fed (and being very sweet, generally beautiful ponies They get fed a lot of treats by passing kids).
 

MiniMilton

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I'm not one for violence, but biting (whether playful mouthiness or not) needs to be stamped out. I'd agree with others, a quick smack on the muzzle would curb this. There is pretty much no other circumstance that I would hit a horse.
A smack on the muzzle absolutely won't hurt your horse, it simply shows the boundary and let's him know he has crossed it. If he were a foal and he crossed the line with his dam, she would give him a bloody good bite, and it would hurt a hell of a lot more than a human smack on the muzzle.

I think the issue here is also consistency. Any sort of clothes pulling is the start of biting and should never be allowed. You are not his herd playmate. As someone else said, removing yourself is actually rewarding his bad behaviour. This removing yourself method would work with a child, but your horse is not a child and should never be treated as one.

In a natural herd, there is always a wise alfa mare, who everybody respects. In the rankings below that there is plenty of bickering between the horses. Your horse seems to think that you are on equal terms and that bickering or horse play is permitted.

When your horse associates a smack with any sort of mouthiness on humans he will know that he is not getting a smack for no reason, so he won't be longterm headshy from this. But this is where you need to be consistent. If every single time he pulls clothes he gets a smack, he will know that his action has a concequence. If you only react every now and then, perhaps when the mouthiness gets bad, then he doesn't know if its okay to do this today or not. It's never OK. Let him chew away at anything he wants in the field or stable, but as soon as its something attached to a human, then it needs to be stamped out.

Depending on what sort of natural horsemanship idealogy you follow, natural horsemanship generally comes from the study of the natural herd dynamics and the communication between the herd members. You don't want to be a lower ranking member. You need to be the alfa mare, and rarely would an alfa mare put up with a lower ranking horse nipping at them. It would have been stamped out very early on.
 

Mule

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I'm usually not one for hitting either but with dangerous things I would, basically because it's unambiguous and quickly stops the behaviour.

I have deployed my elbow at mouthy individuals (not nasty biters) if you do it when you're not face on to them avoids them becoming headshy. They seem to think they're walking in to something unpleasant.

After making contact, when the horse backs off, I keep elbowing the space between us (hard) so the horse realises it's going to keep walking in to something unpleasant if it comes forward again. It's very important to be consistent with it.

If the horse has on a headcollar and lead rope I'd also back it up, meaningfully. I'm sure you can sort it, good luck and let us know how you get on :)
 
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Red-1

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The way I suggested up thread does follow 'natural horsemanship' as in the one who controls the other's feet is the one in charge. Hence, making the horse step back when entering the stable and making sure the horse puts his feet and attention where I want. If you do that consistently, and keep him busy while you are around him (which is where the paying attention not only to his feet but also to where he leans and where his attention is comes in) then he will be busy dancing to your tune and not inventing stuff for himself.

But, as this has been 2 years, I assumed you would not yet have the attention for the minute detail that this entails, which is why I suggested you get help. You thinking one draw blood, a couple of bruises and a lot of ragging round by clothes is acceptable makes me think you are in grave danger.

I do not smack for 'thinking' about biting. I only smack if they actually bite, as I agree that I don't want my horse head shy. But, if they do bite, I 'make space' as quickly as I can, and that can look ugly. But then, as in my up thread post, I would blame myself for not having got a grip f the situation earlier.

Please do get help. Visiting trainers are allowed back out now. I recommend Richard Maxwell.
 

ycbm

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Imagine for a moment you had a dog that bites ....would you hit the dog every time it went for you ? If you did, would it help ? Make the situation worse ? In my opinion hitting confirmed biters makes them worse, it’s different with youngsters but older horses bite for a reason and they won’t stop. Either learn to live with it and work round the horse or find someone who will. If dangerous or has other problems I would pts.

He hasn't been hit once yet and once might be all he needs.

Nobody is suggesting continuing to hit the horse for the rest of its life.

I've been bitten by a lot of horses but never more than once.

.
 

Trouper

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The trouble with "natural horsemanship" is that we are not horses and - try as we might - we can't replicate what other horses would do in a herd to the irritating little git that won't stop pestering. It is one thing to let him have toys in his field to play with but quite another to let him mess around when he is stabled or otherwise under the control and command of a human. He has to learn respect and his place.
I wonder whether some of this might be boredom? Does he have enough to do and enough exercise to get him tired and only too happy to get back to his field/stable to eat and relax? If you are not able to ride much I have known friends who have done horse agility with their stroppy little ponies and it has helped to engage the brain and teach them respect for your space.
Whatever you try - I think you really have to be more assertive in the way you correct him.
 

Cinnamontoast

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Whatever you’re doing to stop him is not working. You therefore need to change what you’re doing. Regardless of fencing, members of the public love trying to get near/feed horses. You’re potentially leaving yourself open to legal problems.

Consistency is key.
 

Mule

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The trouble with "natural horsemanship" is that we are not horses and - try as we might - we can't replicate what other horses would do in a herd to the irritating little git that won't stop pestering. It is one thing to let him have toys in his field to play with but quite another to let him mess around when he is stabled or otherwise under the control and command of a human. He has to learn respect and his place.
I wonder whether some of this might be boredom? Does he have enough to do and enough exercise to get him tired and only too happy to get back to his field/stable to eat and relax? If you are not able to ride much I have known friends who have done horse agility with their stroppy little ponies and it has helped to engage the brain and teach them respect for your space.
Whatever you try - I think you really have to be more assertive in the way you correct him.
I always laugh when I watch the gelding who's the boss in my herd. All he has to do is flick an ear at them and they do what he wants. It's very impressive :D
 

SEH

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Imagine for a moment you had a dog that bites ....would you hit the dog every time it went for you ? If you did, would it help ? Make the situation worse ? In my opinion hitting confirmed biters makes them worse, it’s different with youngsters but older horses bite for a reason and they won’t stop. Either learn to live with it and work round the horse or find someone who will. If dangerous or has other problems I would pts.

I honestly believed that this was the general consensus. And due to it not working with him, it seems counter productive to continue to do something that has no benefit. I was at a yard that very much frowned upon hitting and I don't compete ect so I don't have too much contact with other horsey people. He is not dangerous at all, everyone has gotten the wrong idea about him, I feel bad but that is my fault for explaining badly.

I am well and truly corrected at this point and I thank everyone for their opinion.
 

SEH

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Whatever you’re doing to stop him is not working. You therefore need to change what you’re doing. Regardless of fencing, members of the public love trying to get near/feed horses. You’re potentially leaving yourself open to legal problems.

Consistency is key.

He is completely out of throwing distance of the general public. He had a severe allergic reaction and nearly died so I take no risks.
 

Bellaboo18

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OP you obviously love your horse and in your second description you're clearly defending him.

I am seen as soft with my animals but there's somethings I won't tolerate for mine and others safety. He doesn't know the difference between biting your coat and your face.

I actually think horse are happier when they have clear boundaries and aren't confused. A quick smack a couple of times which he'll understand and then you can move on.

We've all been on livery yards with spoilt horses, that drag their owners about, kick the door and get away with dangerous behaviour... (Not saying your chap does any of the other things) and I actually feel sorry for the horses.
 

SEH

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OP you obviously love your horse and in your second description you're clearly defending him.

I am seen as soft with my animals but there's somethings I won't tolerate for mine and others safety. He doesn't know the difference between biting your coat and your face.

I actually think horse are happier when they understand boundaries and aren't confused. A quick smack a couple of times which he'll understand and then you can move on.

We've all been on livery yards with spoilt horses, that drag their owners about, kick the door and get away with dangerous behaviour... (Not saying your chap does any of the other things) and I actually feel sorry for the horses.

Me too, and I should have made it clear that if it was such a serious problem or had ANY safety issues I would have taken it further and gotten professional help. He is absolutely my best friend, I spend all day every day with him and he is a very very well behaved and steady horse, I have never fallen off him for example (touch wood), I feel terrible that I must have painted him in such a bad light while frustrated about having to refill his buckets god knows how many times times a day! I am not a beginner or new to horses at all. Purely ignorance on my part, having been on the same yard for 10 years, I thought it was a completely unacceptable reaction, where as I now know that not hitting is generally the unaccepted reaction.
 

Shilasdair

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Imagine for a moment you had a dog that bites ....would you hit the dog every time it went for you ? If you did, would it help ? Make the situation worse ? In my opinion hitting confirmed biters makes them worse, it’s different with youngsters but older horses bite for a reason and they won’t stop. Either learn to live with it and work round the horse or find someone who will. If dangerous or has other problems I would pts.

No, I'd have it put to sleep.
I would never have done anything to any animal to make it bite - if it does so, it's not safe to be in this world with other dogs, and humans both adult and children.
 

Pippity

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I had a loan horse who took a serious chomp at my upper arm as I was leading her. It didn't bleed, but I had bruises for a good month, with individual tooth marks visible. It was an automatic response to slam my arm back so she got my elbow in her nose. It wasn't something I'd have done deliberately, but the timing was spot-on, and she never bit again.

It doesn't necessarily have to be hitting - putting the fear of god into them in other ways works as well. My horse had a fieldmate who liked to try to push people around. I wasn't going to hit somebody else's horse, but when she snapped at me while I was in the field, I bellowed, stamped, waved a whip around and made myself as big as I could. She's left me alone since then.
 

Leo Walker

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I had one who was a biter. He had been entire till he was 10 and had been rescued in an appalling state and in a fair bit of pain. I got him when he was looking a lot better, but he was being gotten rid of as they found him difficult. He'd been gelded to try and stop the behaviour and it hadn't worked.

If I'd used the normal methods with him he would have killed me, and I'm not even slightly exaggerating that. I'm happy to use those methods normally, but with this horse it wasn't an option. I was very careful initially, he only actually got me once, and left a huge bruise through jumpers and coats in the middle of winter.

I treated the pain and the aggressive biting stopped. I suspect the biting you are talking about is the other sort he did, more mouthing. Picking up things and playing with them and nipping at people? I clicker trained him so he learnt "face away" so I could redirect him. It took 3 sessions for it to be a reliable behaviour, and I think within a couple of months he had stopped completely. The time line was drawn out as there were pain and soundness issues. Without those I could have sorted it in under a week.
 

ihatework

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Has this horse got equine company? If not I would really suggest he gets turnout with others.

I get the sense you aren’t going to give the bugger a wallop and 2 years of this brattish behaviour probably means it’s pretty ingrained.

So short term, whenever you are handling him, have him in a bucket muzzle and tied up short. Don’t have him in a position where he can mouth anything. Clip buckets etc to the wall.

Then keep his brain occupied by working him harder!
 

conniegirl

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A horse that has drawn blood by biting and then is allowed to continue to bite IS a danger no matter how cute you find it.

None of my horses have ever become headshy and none of them have ever needed more than the initial punishment.

Infact ive had one that came to me headshy and had drawn blood on a former owner. He was treated exactly the same as every other horse. He got a slap and was driven backwards/ screamed at/generally made to think world was ending when he first bit and he never did it again. Didnt make him anymore headshy.
 

Leo Walker

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I just wanted to add that this horse was the love of my life too. I have never ever had a relationship with a horse like I had with him. He worshipped the ground I walked on. He never took his eyes off me. He would have gone through fire for me if I had asked him to. He hated me at first. I think I was the first person in his life that he ever trusted. So there was no damage to our relationship or head shyness caused.

On the other hand my little highland youngster nipped me the other day in a "I wonder what happens if I do this" kind of way, and he got the full works, the world is ending, you are going to die, get put of my space reaction. Hes not done it again.
 

Smogul

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I should have definitely been clear that he has never bitten other people while I have had him, only chewed their clothes.

Any horse who chewed my clothing would get a sharp smack, regardless of who it belonged to. It is not cute or funny. It is dangerous.
 

SEH

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It's great that you are listening to the opinions here, whether you like them or not.

And if you are going to tell me that it's fine, he doesn't bite the vet/farrier/etc. then you might want to have a think about why that is...

I obviously had a problem, or I wouldn't have had reason to ask for advice. I am glad that the problem has been identified. I am only minimising his behaviour because I feel like people have misunderstood me (again my fault). Its not nice for people to say things about your horse, especially when it is my fault for painting him in a bad light. He is not a danger at all, he doesn't bite anyone else. I have learnt my lesson and the source of the problem of him being mouthy has been identified (Me!).

Again, just the way I was taught and clearly this isn't the right way, which is what I now know. I genuinely thought it was animal abuse to react in that way, I am closer to my horse than I am to most people, and I would never hit a person. Just pure ignorance.
 
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ThreeWBs

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I obviously had a problem, or I wouldn't have had reason to ask for advice. I am glad that the problem has been identified. I am only minimising his behaviour because I feel like people have misunderstood me (again my fault). Its not nice for people to say things about your horse, especially when it is my fault for painting him in a bad light. He is not a danger at all, he doesn't bite anyone else. I have learnt my lesson and the source of the problem has been identified (Me!).

Again, just the way I was taught and clearly this isn't the right way, which is what I now know. I genuinely thought it was animal abuse to react in that way, I am closer to my horse than I am to most people, and I would never hit a person. Just pure ignorance.

I know how you feel. My horses are my world and I spend more time with them than I do with my friends and family sometimes! I never chastise my horses harshly for genuine mistakes, but they do get a verbal warning if they're testing boundaries. My youngster was a bugger for nipping and being mouthy when he was around 2yo (still a colt then) and he got his fair share of warnings before he really got put in his place with a leadrope bopped across his nose. It's safe to stay, he's never nipped or been mouthy since (now 6yo) and he's certainly not headshy or scared of me. It's a much safer and more pleasant for all parties involved. Good luck!
 

Lillian_paddington

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I did get very different impressions reading your first post and then your clarifying one so I understand the confusion. He’s just a little nippy right? It’s not acceptable but he doesn’t sound like a huge danger either.
If you don’t want to hit him, what I tend to do if something gets rude is use a sharp tone and take a couple of steps towards them fairly aggressively. I can’t remember the last time the horse didn’t back up and back off. They can read facial expressions fairly well so a nasty face at them can work too.
However, if he didn’t respond to that he’d get a smack on the shoulder first and then the side of the muzzle if he tried it again. I think he’ll learn pretty quickly - if I’m reading this right he just doesn’t seem to know that what he’s doing isn’t acceptable.
 

SEH

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I did get very different impressions reading your first post and then your clarifying one so I understand the confusion. He’s just a little nippy right? It’s not acceptable but he doesn’t sound like a huge danger either.
If you don’t want to hit him, what I tend to do if something gets rude is use a sharp tone and take a couple of steps towards them fairly aggressively. I can’t remember the last time the horse didn’t back up and back off. They can read facial expressions fairly well so a nasty face at them can work too.
However, if he didn’t respond to that he’d get a smack on the shoulder first and then the side of the muzzle if he tried it again. I think he’ll learn pretty quickly - if I’m reading this right he just doesn’t seem to know that what he’s doing isn’t acceptable.

Yes, a little nippy is how I should have described him. He isn't a danger but what he does is annoying. Thanks!
 

Shilasdair

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Yes, a little nippy is how I should have described him. He isn't a danger but what he does is annoying. Thanks!

he bit my hand the first time I rode him and I fainted because of the blood

ETA - And you said 'Sometimes just a nibble, sometimes quite serious' in your first post, too...

No, this is not 'a little nippy'. This is dangerous. Deal with it.
 

Leandy

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He is miles better two years later but still having some problems. Part of me thinks I only think he is better because I am so careful and can sense when he is going to do it. I do natural horsemanship with him to try and teach him respect and boundaries but this is in the early stages. I also do a lot of groundwork with him but it doesn't seem to help.

Seriously, he needs a short sharp shock and zero tolerance of this at all. What ever you are doing, if you are two years on and he doesn't know where the boundaries are you are being way too soft and inconsistent. Do not let him do it - end of. :rolleyes:
 
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