How to stop horse biting?

[lilly.thompson12]

I have recently started riding a new horse, and he is brill in all ways except he bites my bum when I pick out his front feet!! His owner warned me he is a grump and pulls faces, and that the best thing to do is ignore it when he does as if you move away he does bite. This is true in most cases except when I pick his front feet out, even when I ignore his faces, he bites my bum and quite hard! He is fine when someone is fussing his head but I want to be able to go up on my own.
Any suggestions? I am not about hitting them whatsoever, so any ideas using positive reinforcement would be great

 

[Pearlsasinger]

You really need to find out why he does this.

But to treat the 'symptom' try breaking the process down into tiny steps and rewarding each step when it is achieved without biting. This will probably take several/many sessions. You could try clicker training as well. There are books and You tube videos about clicker training.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Tie it up properly.

 

[lilly.thompson12]

Thanks but I'm looking for helpful suggestions. That will not help me find out why he is biting.

 

[lilly.thompson12]

Also he's not an it

 

[be positive]

Tie it up properly.

Thanks but I'm looking for helpful suggestions. That will not help me find out why he is biting.

But it will keep you from being hurt while you try to find out the reason!!

There are numerous possible causes but unless the owner is prepared to look into it more than she has so far then the behaviour is unlikely to change as he will continue when other people deal with him, it seems to be well ingrained, he has "trained" his owner well, I would tie him up and see if that helps break the pattern of threaten then bite when you move, if he cannot reach to bite the threats may stop and he can then be rewarded.

 

[lilly.thompson12]

Thank you

 

[AdorableAlice]

A helpful answer is the horse has been allowed to get away with bad manners, whether with you or before you owned the animal. A correctly reared and schooled horse will not bite, kick or barge, it will have ground manners and know right from wrong.

If you don't want to be bitten tie it up or muzzle it. Between Be Positive and myself you have decades of experience. Whilst a nip on your bottom may sting, if he gets your fingers, face or chest you will likely be heading to hospital. Don't under estimate the damage a horse can do with it's teeth.

An upturned stiff dandy brush is handy to put against a biting horses mouth as he goes for you. I assume your horse is not a colt. A review of the manners is needed and re establish your space and his space, not just his teeth all of him.

 

[lilly.thompson12]

I don't own him, I ride him and have only been riding him a couple of weeks.
He doesn't kick or bite in any other situation, only having his front feet picked out, which is why I don't believe it is manners, rather maybe a bad experience in the past. Hence why I will not use any form of cruelty. I want to find the root cause and fix it.

 

[Brightbay]

I don't own him, I ride him and have only been riding him a couple of weeks.
He doesn't kick or bite in any other situation, only having his front feet picked out, which is why I don't believe it is manners, rather maybe a bad experience in the past. Hence why I will not use any form of cruelty. I want to find the root cause and fix it.

He's communicating that he's unhappy about some aspect of the process. Without seeing him, it's hard to say what that is, but there are a few things you can try. Provided it isn't because someone (who probably thought of him as an "it" ) did a rushed and rather insensitive job of training hoof handling in the first place, you will find that once you've resolved the issue, the biting will stop - horses do not bite for no reason.

It is likely that he is either uncomfortable taking all his weight on one front hoof, putting more weight on his back legs, or that he is stiff and finds it uncomfortable with the bend to the joints of the leg you want to hold. Does he anticipate the lift? So does he start to warn you off as soon as you approach with the hoof pick, or does he wait until you are actually asking for the lift?

If he's not reacting until you approach and ask for the hoof, you can try a process of elimination. First of all, try standing him on a soft surface (a mat or carpet). This works well with horses who find it uncomfortable to put more weight on the other front hoof - if they are standing on a more cushioned surface, they are usually more willing to offer the hoof you're asking for.

If this doesn't have any effect, go on to the next option - try asking for the front hoof with less flexion and holding the hoof very low (tip of hoof on ground).

Finally, if you think it may be because he doesn't want to take more weight back on to his hinds, try not picking out feet until he has been exercised gently so that possibly stiff joints have been moving.

In all the cases, there is possibly an underlying issue with pain and discomfort - if it's front hoof pain, maybe speak to the horse's farrier or trimmer about what might be causing hoof sensitivity. If it seems to be front leg joint stiffness, that may need a vet to check, and if it's hind leg stiffness, the same.

It is also worth speaking to his owner to see if you can get some history. How old is he? Has he always done this or has it started recently? Is it the same every time or is it getting slightly worse?

Horses only have one way to communicate and as you've said above, investigating the reason they're communicating is a better way forward than expecting them to suffer in silence because you think they should have impeccable manners and never say how they feel

 

[lilly.thompson12]

Excellent answer and much more helpful than the last, thank you lol!

 

[alice.j]

I used to ride a horse that did this. Never even pulled a face at anything else, but pick up a front hoof and it was all teeth. Nothing wrong with him in any way, he'd just done it his whole life.
He just liked to take the p*ss out of people. Told him off a couple of times and that was it, he was fine, never did it again.
Sometimes a firm hand is what's needed. When you're dealing with something as big and strong as a horse, you don't always have time for positive reinforcement, you need them to know that what they're doing is wrong before you get hurt.

 

[Barnacle]

OP, you implied that he does sometimes bite in other contexts, correct? It seems the horse has developed a somewhat defensive attitude when people are around him and will only bite if he feels you are close but not "too" close in other contexts. This is how they are with each other too... They may warn a herdmate to move away by pulling a face and then back that up as the herdmate responds by really going for them to cement the message. The point, ultimately, is to get you out of his space.

It is very possible the horse is mildly inconvenienced (but not in discomfort) by someone coming and picking up his front hoof. I would still want to check, however, that a farrier sees him regularly and there are no sensitivities at play. Assuming that's not the case...

If you were a horse and he bit your backside, you'd thump him square in the chest and he'd never do it again...

Positive reinforcement is a wonderful motivator for horses but it isn't actually that intuitive for them. They are used to negative reinforcement because that is how they interact with each other. As such, it shouldn't be dismissed immediately as it's extremely effective and need not be "cruel". The horse biting you is practicing negative reinforcement. He's annoyed with you so he's biting in the "hope" that if he does so enough, you'll move away. Then he'll stop and relieve the pressure... It may not be a conscious activity for him - it's his instinct perhaps - but that is still what he is doing. So he gets that.

I do not advocate hitting horses except in extreme scenarios, of which this is not one. However, I echo the sentiments of others who have said not to underestimate this behaviour. If it were to escalate, the horse could severely injure - even kill - you.

With that said, I'd try two different things.

First of all, using positive reinforcement, teach the horse to pick up his front feet. This is super easy and can be taught in a matter of minutes to most as long as you have good timing. Have a treat in one hand and use a schooling whip to gently tap the lower leg of the horse. Say "foot" as you do it. The whip is to "point" at the correct place and tickle the foot to encourage the horse to move it. If he does even a slight movement, immediately say "good" (try to use the same tone - you can use a clicker instead if you have one) reward with the treat and back off. If he doesn't react, you need to just be patient and keep going. Keep the same rhythm and ask for the "foot" periodically. Do set him up to succeed. If you need to, use your body to shift his weight a little so lifting the foot you want is more likely. Repeat on both sides. Once they figure out that lifting the foot gives them a treat, they start offering the behaviour on their own. You need to resist the temptation to reward that. Only ever reward the lifting of the foot you've been "pointing" at (make sure you always touch the horse with the whip as this will translate to your hand later) and only after you've actually said "foot".

Once you've trained that (it may look more like a pawing movement - that's ok), you just have to substitute the whip with your hand and then gradually build up the time you spend holding up the foot before rewarding. To start with, don't pick out the hoof at all. Say "foot", support with your hand(s), say "good" and then just hold it until the horse relaxes it and let go and reward. Don't even give him time to think about biting you! Keep it short and (literally) sweet at first and build up slowly. It may be a few days before you can properly pick the hooves out without him even considering biting. Then start introducing the hoof pick. Eventually "foot" will mean hoof-picking time and the horse will love it because he'll know there's a treat in it for him.

However, the second half of this is that if he does got to bite you (in any context), have a whip close at hand and do smack the ground with it in front of him. This doesn't need to be particularly violent smacking but it should be enough that he gets a little startled. Then immediately ask for the "foot" again (if that's what you were doing) and continue as you were. The startle is the equivalent to the sort of warning horses will give each other before they really deliver a connecting kick/bite and you should do it even if he doesn't actually succeed in catching you (so even if he just goes to bite but misses or stops just before). He probably won't get the message immediately if it's an ingrained habit but after a few repetitions of this, he will likely let you do the job. He may relapse a few times, but with consistency, the biting should stop. Teaching the "foot" command first will ensure he doesn't associate the whip-cracking with the hoof-picking specifically, as you definitely don't want that.

Timing is all-important. Whether you are rewarding with "good" + treat or smacking the ground, it has to be immediate to get the association across. As is patience and that you keep with it. But you really do need to realise that horses think differently to humans and you need to be empathetic and interpret their behaviour like it is. It doesn't serve to baby a horse - just as much as it doesn't serve to be violent towards them.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

It is also worth checking the back of his knees to make sure that he doesn't have any sores there.


ETA, I prefer not to tie horses up. I train mine to stand still when instructed, so that I can pick out hooves, groom etc.

 

[lilly.thompson12]

Great answer thank you. Today, I had someone at his head making sure he didn't bite me, and when I picked up his hoof she gave him a treat and let go of his head, and when she had let go he didn't try biting. Did this with all 4 feet and that seemed to work.... However he seems to get bargy when there are treats about! Don't get me wrong I'm not a pussy around him I do tell him off! But before we did the treat thing he was being horrid and kicking out and everything!

 

[Cortez]

Disciplining a horse, including giving him a whack, is not "cruel", it is necessary. AdorableAlice has very kindly given you excellent advice; I would strongly advise you to take it before the horse turns into a bargy, unpleasant, dangerous monster and you, or someone else, gets hurt. Horses in general don't respond well to "love".

 

[lilly.thompson12]

I disagree.

 

[Cortez]

I disagree.

Well, best of luck then