How to stop puppy from biting

MotherOfChickens said:
yes,, this-I wonder if those who like physical reinforcement have never had to deal with a sensitive breed.
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i currently have a very feisty small terrier mix who was very bitey and i tried all other methods first but had to resort to scruffing him and shaking (not roughly) . he is still a bit bitey when he gets exited but now listens to me....i have had mainly sighthounds all of my life and my other current dog is a collie cross and i have NEVER had to be tough with any of them, so i found it quite difficult to change my way of training. i also have had 2 terriers and they were easy to train so i wasnt expecting such a little monster this time...i still love him though..
 
SpringArising said:
It's about just using common sense really isn't it? It should go without saying that someone (e.g. like me) who would use physical reinforcement or punishment or whatever you want to call it wouldn't use it on a nervous dog or on a behaviour that was a fear response.
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is it? I am not talking fearful/nervous dogs-I am talking about 15 week old puppies that might be a of more sensitive breed. it might be about common sense but this thread has those in favour of physical reinforcement continually saying that positive reinforcement doesnt work for bite inhibition generally. I'm saying it can-its worked for every single one of my dogs including older rescue dogs who's bite inhibition wasnt what I wanted it to be, and she was a staffy cross at 22kg if we have to qualify every comment. In the interest of balance and for people wanting information on teaching bite inhibition-one size does not fit all.
 
SpringArising said:
It's about just using common sense really isn't it? …….. .
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Indeed it is! The other point is that it would be unlikely for a shy or retiring or sensitive dog to 'mouth' their owner. 'Mouthing' (play-biting if we like) is generally an expression of frustration, total lack of respect, or possibly even teething. Puppies will also use it as a method of testing the boundaries of what's acceptable and what isn't. I would strongly suspect that 'most' pups which have a modest lesson of discipline installed, probably wouldn't do it, I'd suspect that adolescent biting is more often witnessed from dogs which haven't had the boundaries explained to them.

Getting the balance of, on the one hand a cowed and brow-beaten pup and on the other hand having an ignorant little toad, always seems to me to be a fairly simple process. I'm also convinced that many, in a desire to 'bond' with their puppy (though in reality, they become subservient) allow liberties and then, for what ever reasons, seem unable to tighten the screw of discipline. Better to start as we mean to go on, I think.

Alec.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
is it? I am not talking fearful/nervous dogs-I am talking about 15 week old puppies that might be a of more sensitive breed. it might be about common sense but this thread has those in favour of physical reinforcement continually saying that positive reinforcement doesnt work for bite inhibition generally.
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That also falls under using your common sense on when it is and isn't appropriate to discipline, and how, and how much.

I'm not saying that positive reinforcement doesn't work - I use it all the time. But I don't think that's what it is when you have a dog biting you and you hand them a toy or a treat ball instead to 'redirect'.

The dog hasn't learnt that biting is bad, instead all that's happened is the focus has been put elsewhere.

At no point there has the dog learnt that there will be an uncomfortable repercussion to a bad behaviour, and there are plenty of dogs who need to have bad behaviours nipped in the bud ASAP.
 
GSDs at this age will be wanting to chew, bite and hold things.
Once they get a correction and a firm message that teeth do not touch hands (or furniture lol), to not ever offer an alternative is unfair in my view.

And yes I do work with dogs of usually 30-40kg.
As I said earlier the average GSD will not wither and die with a correction, but if all you ever do is tell it off, it just won't like you very much.

In my view not all biting Is bad. It just has to be directed to the right place.
Good luck developing the ball drive or training the retrieval of an object, with a dog that has been told sternly as a pup that it must never bite, grip or hold anything. All of these exercises are just prey and play drive, modified.
 
Clodagh said:
I have tiome for Cesar Milan, in that somethings he says are good. TBH Monty Roberts sometimes comes out with some sense, too.
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Watch his videos with the sound off. He talks a very good talk but what he says is not what he does.

ILuvCowparsely said:
Many dogs benefit from his training and I am sure they only televise these cases, and there maybe many many cases not screened where he may have failed or something wrong with the dog and he could not help it.
No reasons to slate the guy.
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There are many, many reasons to slate the guy. Mainly the fact that he believes in and pushes a theory that has long since been debunked, and therefore bases all his training on flooding and dominance.
 
Leo Walker said:
…….. There are many, many reasons to slate the guy. Mainly the fact that he believes in and pushes a theory that has long since been debunked, and therefore bases all his training on flooding and dominance.
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Three questions for you;

1: Have you ever seen Milan use his time served methods on a mouthing puppy, or any puppy?

2: Have you ever had to 'force' your way in to and create an immediate relationship with a dog that's so disturbed that it's dangerous?

3: Do you have any relevant and evidenced experience of dangerous dogs which you could put up for all to see?

Alec.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
yes,, this-I wonder if those who like physical reinforcement have never had to deal with a sensitive breed.
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Considering I've had sighthounds for the past 30 years I think that would be a yes? :) Some of my sighthounds have been sensitive and I wouldn't dream of smacking them, raising my voice slightly was enough. Some of them less so, and a smack on the backside was needed (as with current manic lurcher puppy :D)

I suppose this is the disadvantage of a forum - when I respond with what I would do, I assume that everyone has had the exposure and experience I have had. I am not an expert by any means, I've just had dogs for a lot of years, but judging by the way my comments are often misinterpreted or challenged I guess I need to provide more explanation/context? (NOT aimed at you MoC, this is a general observation)

I suggested a smack on the backside in this context because I feel that generally in my limited experience GSDs are not a shy and retiring breed who need delicate handling. I wouldn't have advocated the same approach for a CKCS for example. As SpringArising says, to me it is a matter of common sense
 
Alec Swan said:
Three questions for you;

1: Have you ever seen Milan use his time served methods on a mouthing puppy, or any puppy?

2: Have you ever had to 'force' your way in to and create an immediate relationship with a dog that's so disturbed that it's dangerous?

3: Do you have any relevant and evidenced experience of dangerous dogs which you could put up for all to see?

Alec.
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No to all of those - however I have seen a cracking video where CM TOTALLY handled a dog in the wrong way (I think it was a food aggressive one? ) - at that moment I lost all respect and time for the man, he is an idiot
 
Lévrier;13680124 said:
No to all of those - however I have seen a cracking video where CM TOTALLY handled a dog in the wrong way (I think it was a food aggressive one? ) - at that moment I lost all respect and time for the man, he is an idiot
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I saw it too, it was a Yellow Lab (or similar), he was going to get nailed, that was obvious, he pushed the dog too far, but surprisingly he missed the warning signs …. we get too cocky and dogs can bring us down to earth with such a bump! :D …. BUT, he immediately accepted that the fault laid with him and it did.

Lev, Milan's reputation and for so many, hangs on one major ****-up. Being in front of a camera didn't help and perhaps because of the time constraints, he chanced his arm, and he got it bitten!! He was wrong, most dog owners get it wrong sometimes, they just don't do it on camera.

Alec.
 
Its not one major cock up. Its repeated cock ups based on flawed methodology. He narrowly escaped being prosecuted for cruelty last year.

I've just watched the video with the lab again to make sure I wasnt mistaken. The dogs body language is very clear. CM gets bitten then says "I didnt see that coming" He then carries on using the same methods and gets bitten again. Hes an idiot.
 
I respect your opinion Alec - blimey I never thought I'd say that lol :D :D :D - and I understand exactly where you are coming from

However I have to say I agree with LW far more.

I know everyone will have differing views, that is what makes us human and leads to - hopefully healthy and constructive - debate?
 
Milan. He gets bit. It's an occupational hazard.
He's not using his fingers to tinkle the ivories, he's putting them near the sharp end of an animal with 42 teeth.
He's been bitten a fair few times on camera.

Victoria Stilwell was hospitalised in the USA when she sat next to an operational K9, the handler had strongly advised her not to approach. **** happens.
 
CorvusCorax said:
In my view not all biting Is bad. It just has to be directed to the right place.
Good luck developing the ball drive or training the retrieval of an object, with a dog that has been told sternly as a pup that it must never bite, grip or hold anything. All of these exercises are just prey and play drive, modified.
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Yep - this ^^^^

I have owned the breed for over 25 years and have worked with a variety of types and temperaments. They have all responded well to the loud 'ouch' followed by redirect on to a toy ... which the dog soon works out is much more satisfying to bite and chew as it results in an exciting game of tug (which can then be used for all kinds of reward and training). Perhaps smacking or shaking also works, but I believe it can result in suppressing the prey drive which is a useful training aid, and can damage the bond between owner and dog.
 
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