How will France respond?

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Rollin

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You may have seen the thread started by Ciss on the Informed Opinion sent to France by the EU.

My husband was notified on 1st December 2001, by SANCO that the letter had been sent and France had two months to comply. We had not seen the wording and so I base my comments on the Press Information on this forum.

We think France will respond, 'we do not prevent people from obtaining their passports from PIO's in other member states. If you do however and the covering certificate is with the UK PIO who have not informed us they have issued the passport, as required under EU legislation on the identification of equidae, (regulation 504/2008) we cannot assume this a pedigree horse and will register it as ONC' Origin Unknown.

This has already occurred with a number of Fell ponies and in particular a Welsh Section C, born in France but with a passport issued by WCPS in Wales.

To compete in top competition it is necessary to have an OC, origin known passport or full Cheval de Race passport. OC horses cannot take part in breed championships.

ONC horse are restricted to Le Trec, Amateur Endurance, Western Riding.

We watch with interest.
 
We too are are breeding in France and whilst I find the SIRE mighty slow, they are pretty effective at managing and keeping consistent and coherent the complete registration and database.

Hence, my apologies if I sound a bit harsh but, my feeling is that the French position seems reasonable. I guess I dont have the full picture, but from what you say in respect of the CB is that SIRE open up the possibilities to discuss, but there seems to be no response from the CB stud book. This does not seem right.

As I posted on the other thread the problem here seems to be a minority of UK PIOs that are either not bothered or reluctant to discuss with SIRE. I would even suggest that some uk stud books do not get involved as they do not really want their breeding lines continued overseas, as ultimately it means some loss of control. For example the dutch bred NF is a good example of what can happen where the line is becoming finer and somewhat distinct from the traditional native breed. I am not saying this is a bad thing, but clearly I guess some stud books want more protection over their breeds. Opening up of Europe in this sense is not only an opportunity to maintain the breed, but it is also paradoxically a potential risk.
 
ReggieP said:
We too are are breeding in France and whilst I find the SIRE mighty slow, they are pretty effective at managing and keeping consistent and coherent the complete registration and database.

Hence, my apologies if I sound a bit harsh but, my feeling is that the French position seems reasonable. I guess I dont have the full picture, but from what you say in respect of the CB is that SIRE open up the possibilities to discuss, but there seems to be no response from the CB stud book. This does not seem right.

As I posted on the other thread the problem here seems to be a minority of UK PIOs that are either not bothered or reluctant to discuss with SIRE. I would even suggest that some uk stud books do not get involved as they do not really want their breeding lines continued overseas, as ultimately it means some loss of control. For example the dutch bred NF is a good example of what can happen where the line is becoming finer and somewhat distinct from the traditional native breed. I am not saying this is a bad thing, but clearly I guess some stud books want more protection over their breeds. Opening up of Europe in this sense is not only an opportunity to maintain the breed, but it is also paradoxically a potential risk.
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I don't disagree with you at all. We finally made a complaint to the EU because CBHS would not even meet with HN. The Director of International Relations offered to travel to Yorkshire and meet them all(two years ago) and his offer was rejected.

During the past two years, only 33 pure bred foals have been registered annually WORLDWIDE. We bought this stud to breed CB's I have 4 pure-bred mares a purebred stallion and a part-bred filly and have poured huge amounts of money into the project.

We are very frustrated by the whole pantomime.
 
Have you taken legal advice?Possibly this is a uk court issue. CB PIO have not responded to repeated requests to inform SIRE as they are oblidged and consequently you have suffered a loss. What about starting a small claims for the loss in value. Maybe this will spurn them into action.
 
Rollin said:
You may have seen the thread started by Ciss on the Informed Opinion sent to France by the EU.

We think France will respond, 'we do not prevent people from obtaining their passports from PIO's in other member states. If you do however and the covering certificate is with the UK PIO who have not informed us they have issued the passport, as required under EU legislation on the identification of equidae, (regulation 504/2008) we cannot assume this a pedigree horse and will register it as ONC' Origin Unknown.

We watch with interest.
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Rollin which section (number) does this statement appear in the regulation 504/2008)

I wasn't aware that PIO's had to notify governing PIO's in other Member States that a passport had been issued?

I was on the understanding that the UELN was universally recognised, that the EU legislation is in place to facilitate fair trade between members states and that as an authorised PIO by DEFRA and therefore EU recognised that all Member States needed to accept and recognise all equines and their recorded parentage registered in a recognised EU stud book.

We have colleagues in France that have experienced similar difficulties as yours with foals born in France registered KWPN, and registered SIRE ONC. They were informed that had the foals been born in the Netherlands the foals would have been registered OC. They are following your case with interest.

Just trying to figure which part of the legislation allows France to take this stance and why the problems only seem to exist with France and not in other countries.
 
Opie

Article 21 para 3 states

"Immediately after recording the information referred to in para 1 of this article, the issuing body shall communicate the information referred to in points a to f and n of that para to the central data base in the member state where the equine animal was born, if such central data base has been made available in accordance with article 23".
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France actually does have an excellent and comprehensive database. Para 1 concerns the minimum information held on database. In fairness, we don't think any of the UK PIO's were aware of this.

Background

I should explain that my filly was born in March 2009, HN accepted the CB as a pedigree horse for the first time in Jan/Feb? 2009 after my letter to a Senior French Minister, which included three years of correspondence!!!!!

The meeting took place in Stoneleigh in June 2009 between British Breed Societies, HN and SIRE and was chaired by Jan Rogers, BEF. CBHS sent a representative. I met with Xavier and Caroline from HN and SIRE in October 2009 because certain questions had not been asked.

DEFRA told me there was no hurry to obtain a passport for Little D until the end of the year, we expected a decision from the Commission and by this time saw no reason for an agreement not to be made between CBHS and HN. Finally I obtained her passport from CBHS with great difficulty as no progress was made BUT I asked my French vet to prepare all the registration papers for HN at the same time. I then sent all the documents off together to HN.

CBHS refused to make an agreement with HN saying they would wait for a Commission decision. In February 2012 SIX years will have elapsed and in spite of all this to and fro - no complaint had been made to the EU. If one had been made three years ago the Commission would have already made a ruling as they must take action within 6 months.

My husband wrote on 9th February 2011, received a reply from Bernard van Goethan in April; notified CBHS in April and May 2011of the need to make formal notification of Little D's passport; in July we were sent a list of questions by the legal dept at the Commission and sent them a comprehensive file; in October DEFRA advised CBHS for the second time, to come to an agreement with HN 'in the interests of the member in France'.

1st December, SANCO notified my husband that a letter had been sent to the French Authorities.

As far as Little D is concerned she has not yet been registered as ONC because we are all still hoping that common sense will prevail and we have maintained cordial relations with HN AND SIRE.

I would never have fought so long and so hard were it not for the fact the Cleveland Bay is on the RBST critical list. I have a very nicely bred filly who should be flying the flag for Britain.

Actually we already are, I was on French TV last October, when a local station came to film the Queen's horses.


PS The UELN is universally recognised and CBHS have been told that France are happy for them to issue the UELN for foals born in France.
 
Opie said:
Rollin which section (number) does this statement appear in the regulation 504/2008)

I wasn't aware that PIO's had to notify governing PIO's in other Member States that a passport had been issued?
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It seems to me that France is following the rules exactly. What France needs (as required in the regulation) is an official website published list by UK government (DEFRA) of all PIOs and their associated details.

It seems that the UK has not provided this official list of PIOs, because if you
go to the EC website, set up specifically for this regulation for sharing of information

http://ec.europa.eu/food/animal/identification/equine/ms_information_en.htm

and you click on the UK you will get a copy of a FAX sent by the EC on the 7th October 2011 to remind countries to provide the information required.

France and most other member states have provided (as is required) all the necessary information. Where France has not had access to such a list this it has been "generous" ;) enough to enter into bi-lateral agreement with each PIO.

Surely one must ask why something as simply as a link to a list of PIOs has not been provided by the UK to the EC in the 2 years since this regulation came into force, notwithstanding as as said above that some PIOs are probably not even aware of their obligation to make their details officially public.
 
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Reggie, France has one PIO and the passport issue and database go hand in hand.

Xavier actually asked me if I knew how many PIO's there are in the UK, at that time I think it was over 50. I was shocked.

Many are dependent on volunteers which means that moving things forward depends on 'goodwill'.
 
Rollin said:
Reggie, France has one PIO and the passport issue and database go hand in hand.

Xavier actually asked me if I knew how many PIO's there are in the UK, at that time I think it was over 50. I was shocked.

Many are dependent on volunteers which means that moving things forward depends on 'goodwill'.
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OK, and I agree that this is part the problem, but after 2 years of the regulation in force there should not be any more excuses. There is an obligation for a) the uk government to provide an official list on a public website and b) for each PIO to provide its details. This is a basic requirement for the regulation. If this has not been done, then for me this is not a French problem, but a UK one. If it were me I would be complaining to the EC over the UK failure to meet the regulation in the provision of information to other member states. The French position whilst perhaps a little ....... well french :) ... seems legally sound.
 
Our complaint was based on the fact that we are between a rock and a hard place and have been unable to move forward in terms of breeding Cleveland Bays until the issue is resolved.

We supplied the legal dept with facts and the actions we had taken to resolve the situation.
 
Thanks for that, Rollin that was the missing link I needed to gain a better understanding.

ReggieP I'm not sure that there is any confusion as to which PIO's are recognised by France and other EU member States including the DEFRA list of recognised stud books as have not come across any difficulties with the registration of foreign registered horses born and passported directly with the HN nor animals born bred and registered in other Member State countries.

It appears that difficulties only arise when foals are born in France but passported with other Member State Stud Books and in light of the information provided by Rollin, it appears that each registration must be notified by the stud book issuing the passport to the NH, if a PIO fails to do so then the foals are documented as ONC. If this is the case it does appear that CBHS are non compliant with EU legislation and that France are operating within their rights.

I understand the need for your horses to be identified as purebreds Rollin quite right too. Is there any possibility that the NH would consider creating their own division for the CB as they have done with other breeds, in order that purebred papers could be issued directly by the HN? Is this something that you could discuss with Xavier?
 
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the basis requirement in terms of information sharing as laid down in the regulation concerns the official publication of PIOs and the submission of this list to the EC.

For example : Germany has a very large list of PIOs, as it is split up into different Laender. Nevertheless, for each there is comprehensive information in respect of details and registration number of each PIO. This is the official publications required. All member states must provide this - the UK has not. It was sent a reminder on the 7th October 2011.

The fact that there are not problems with other States is legally irrelevant. Yes you can argue that this is down to some French obstinacy, but clearly if the UK is not providing this information then why should they. I suspect the problem is compounded by the fact that many more UK origin horses being bred in France, compared to elsewhere in Europe, as in recent years many brits have moved here, and the SIRE is getting a bit fed up with having to deal with a large number of disparate, unorganised UK PIOs some of which show no willingness to cooperate.

I am not fully defending the French, but the UK seems clearly at fault, and for this reason and unfortunately (for Rollin) I do not see this going anywhere fast until the UK gets its own house in order.
 
This problem does not exist soley with UK horses and UK PIO's, the example provided earlier was for foals born in France issued with KWPN passports and at the time of registration with the HN in order to obtain their S.I.R.E number they were registered as ONC. I can only presume this is on the basis of the legislation that Rollin has highlighted Article 21 para 3 of regulation 504/2008

This highlights that the problem occurs on an "individual" basis if and when the Stud Book doesn't notify the HN that a passport has been issued.

For your SSH horses born and bred in Scotland or the UK passported with an SSH SHB GB BWB-UK stud book or other, there never appears to be any problem with registering the horses as OC with the HN because the HN have the DEFRA list and publish the recognised breeds. Most commercial enterprises have a copy of the list and refer to this prior to purchase as not to can become problematic if the stud book is not recognised as an official EC PIO whereby the horses are being purchased specificaly for sport.
 
The problem here is perhaps trying to be too generic, and assuming that the reason it did not work in one case is the reason for another.

KWPN is a clearly a registered and properly communicated NL PIO.
Was this problem recent or some time back? Did the breeder question this and present the regulations to SIRE. Was the information on the PIO available to the SIRE at the time of registration.

We have not had a problems with UK origins and the fact that SIRE does properly register so many breeds born to foreign imports leads me to think this is more due to incomplete data or possibly human error, rather than deliberate malice or protectionism. Remember the french are fairly keen to get in good new imports, so they can class the products as PFS ;-)
 
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The foals were born in 2009 & 2010.

The breeders are French and have survived having their stallion pass from reproducteur en SFA demoted to CS, passing their foal registrations to Zangersheide & KWPN only to have thier stallions' status reinstated two years later as reproducteur SF. :rolleyes:

Thier foals born & bred in France when registered directly with the HN are registered OC no problems, no dispute, no arguements, no discussion, however the foals bred, born & registered with another Member State PIO in this instance the KWPN despite having exactly the same parentage have been registered ONC.

Initially there was a great deal of confusuion following the implemetation of the commission decision 96/78 Januray 2006 that breeders have truly struggled to keep up to date with all the changes within the HN. In recent years it has become easier and have yet to encounter a problem with registration or overstamping any horse when the horses are born out with France & passported with an EU Member State but foals born in France & registered with other Member State PIO's is and always has been problematic as is the case for Rollin.

The only option they have at present to avoid conflict is to register the foals directly with the HN and provide them with the KWPN covering certificates. Their hands are tied.
 
Opie, I thought KWPN had an agreement in place with HN, such as has been offered to CBHS.

If an agreement is in place HN should issue a full Cheval de Race passport, which will include a logo from the breed society and registration into the mother stud book. The management agreement is quite recent. In effect HN acts as an 'agent' for the mother stud book.

Pre-dating that are daughter stud books e.g WCPS, Connemara. Is there a KWPN daughter stud book? The daughter stud books are run like separate stud books and there is no automatic registration with the mother stud book. This is what alarmed me when I first started doing my research. I learned from Xavier that France will provide the data if asked I suspect the UK breed societies have a poor understanding of what happens and have not asked for the data.

We visited EquitaLyon a year ago and I spoke to a French breeder of Welsh Ponies and she showed me the passports for the French and Welsh born ponies.

The advantage of the Daughter Stud Books is that HN gives money to the top breeders each year and where a DSB exists it is possible to run Breed Championships and take advantage of the funding.
 
How recently, do you know Rollin? As yes they operate the same process for the Akhal Teke in agreement with the mother stud book in Russia and it's very efficient.

This case was certainnly prior to any agreement, the foals have KWPN passports sent from Holland, not issued by the HN, so might be worth them going back to the drawing board and see if they can make progress as at present the youngsters have little value as cannot compete in the young horse classes and as breeders of show jumpers its important that they can.
 
The new agreement was first offered at the meeting in Stonleigh, June 2009. Your friends should ask KWPN to take up their case.

The Dales pony Society now has an agreement with HN and all the ponies born in France prior to the agreement have had their passports changed and are now correctly registered so I believe.

You can double check this with Mrs. Ashby the very helpful secretary at DPS. I know that one of their French breeders gave up breeding Dales, as your friends and I find it is an impossible situation for the breeders.
 
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