HOYS Amateur classes have mostly pro's in them

Escada2004

Escada2004

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I hae been competing in the HOYS amateur qualifiers for the last two years and this year will be my third year trying to qualify. They are 1.20m in the first round and the jump offs are usually 1.35m. Thats all fine however you are jumping against 100 plus other entries and the majority are pro's! Its not fair as the jump offs are so hot that even going flat out and turning up as tight as i could at the weekend at Southview i still only managed 11th out of 107! I have one horse at that level and about 1/2 to 3/4 of the entris are pro's and some have three or fours horses each in them. Why call it an amateur class when near enough anyone can jump in it??? And believe me these are not amateur courses. Dont get me wrong, i love a challenge and i will give it my best and im determined to qualify this year but its so hard only having one horse and also these pro's are used to galloping round 1.40m classes yet us 'true' amateurs dont get that sort of experience as we dont have the time/money/horse power. Whats everyone elses thoughts on this?? I have heard the BS are looking at changing the rules next year to make it a proper amateur class!
 
I don't show jump nowadays and have no idea about what the restrictions for the classes are but I agree very much with you that it is difficult if you just have one horse at that level as you don't get the "match practice" as it were at that height. Years ago I was at a BSJA regional meeting and I can't even remember what the subject under discussion was but I remember making the point that the pro speaking probably rode as many classes in a month as a one horse person rode in a year.
 
It drives me mad and is totally unfair, I don't blame the Pros for entering they are after all eligible but the BS need to re think the rules to make it a true amateur class. In my eyes anyone who works full time riding horses is a professional. I don't think they should go by rider rankings but i guess if they don't how would they police it? Good Luck and i hope you qualify I am going to enter the one at Patchetts but i have no great expectations of getting placed let alone qualify but we can dream!
 
Its the wording of the restriction on who can enter that needs looking at.

I think maybe a wording like 'rider not to have competed at 1.30 or above in the last 2 years' would really let the true part time amateur in which is what I thought it was meant to be aimed at.
 
It used to be riders not in the top 100 (I think might have been less than that - it's years since I looked at a rule book) - which at least ruled out the "big boys" as it were but still left it open to people who were making a living out of horses.
 
I know how hard the winner of this at HOYS last year had to work to qualify, she travelled all over the country to get to the finals, and even then only managed it in the last qualifier by coming 2nd. Just because they do horses "full time", doesn't mean they should be turfed out from these classes, although I agree the people with strings of horses competing at that sort of level should be restricted.
 
the thing is though, i wouldnt class ANYONE in the top 250 an amatuer by any stretch of the imagination.

Also the rankings list leaves alot to be desired i think - only 1.30 + on an A or B counts for anything.
So those amazingly good producers who ride a ton of grade c's in any kind of class...where does that leave them?
 
KatB said:
I know how hard the winner of this at HOYS last year had to work to qualify, she travelled all over the country to get to the finals, and even then only managed it in the last qualifier by coming 2nd. Just because they do horses "full time", doesn't mean they should be turfed out from these classes, although I agree the people with strings of horses competing at that sort of level should be restricted.
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i would class about half the final list (judging on previous years) amatuers. but not the other half. it must be very soul destroying for the true amateur though. like the op!
 
KatB said:
I know how hard the winner of this at HOYS last year had to work to qualify, she travelled all over the country to get to the finals, and even then only managed it in the last qualifier by coming 2nd. Just because they do horses "full time", doesn't mean they should be turfed out from these classes, although I agree the people with strings of horses competing at that sort of level should be restricted.
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I do agree with you Kat that she must have worked very hard to get there but in my eyes she is a professional and makes a living out of show jumping. You and I are amatuers and she is in a different class.
 
It's very tricky to get the balance right. The rule in Canada is ANYONE who makes any money off riding in not an Amateur BUT it's changed so many times over the years to accommodate/exclude people who make a bit camp teaching, run a yard, gallop racehorses or similar. Short of looking at someone's tax returns it's very difficult to police - generally, people get ratted out! ;)

I was very surprised to learn that people who are established riders and trainers can jump in "Amateur" classes - as above, why don't they just give the class another name? I presume it's to follow the FEI model and basically exclude only people who could technically be living ONLY off their competition/riding earnings.
 
who won last year???

I must say i had a young rider jump Gadget in some - i walked the course at vicarage farm and it was more technical than the Grade C qualifiers we did last year !! all the lines were dog legs related distances etc etc - funnily enough if you looked who got through to the jump off was mostly as you say Pro/Am people then in the jump off they galloped round like loonys - i must say i would prefer to win a class on good riding rather than going flat out ..........
 
I dont bame the pro's at all for jumping in it as at the end of the day the actual rule allows them to. What frustrates me is that it is an 'Amateur' class so the BS should change the rules so only true amateurs can jump in it. At the end of the day there arnt many amateurs out there that have young horses good enough to qualify for HOYS in the Newcomer/grade C etc as you have to have something pretty special so the only class they have a chance in is the Amateur classic which was why i thought they did it. I have a lot of friends that do horses for a living but i wouldnt necessarily class them as pro's in showjumping. I think in Ireland they have a limit on the height classes you can jump to be classed as a pro and i think that that would possibly be the fairest way of doing it as its the ones that have 1.40m horses that then drop them down to the amateur class just to get a HOYS ticket that are making the class unfair. I am friends with the last two years winners and agian, i wouldnt class them as what i call 'pro's' not because they arnt very good, but because they arnt the ones dropping their horses down a grade just to get through!
 
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Tinks81 said:
who won last year???

I must say i had a young rider jump Gadget in some - i walked the course at vicarage farm and it was more technical than the Grade C qualifiers we did last year !! all the lines were dog legs related distances etc etc - funnily enough if you looked who got through to the jump off was mostly as you say Pro/Am people then in the jump off they galloped round like loonys - i must say i would prefer to win a class on good riding rather than going flat out ..........
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Yes these arnt even built as amateur tracks, they are very technical but i think thats a good thing as you should be able to ride a technical track if you are jumping 1.20m's. Di Fairclough won last year.
 
Escada2004 said:
Yes these arnt even built as amateur tracks, they are very technical but i think thats a good thing as you should be able to ride a technical track if you are jumping 1.20m's. Di Fairclough won last year.
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Yes but i think this was a little over the top on the technical side - 1.40m classes lou has jumped gadget in arent as bad as this !! I thought it was very unfair actually as the only people who had a chance were the more pro ones .....

I would say all the people qualified so far i know from the SJ circuit meaning they are on it 99% of the time and all ride for a living x
 
Tinks81 said:
Yes but i think this was a little over the top on the technical side - 1.40m classes lou has jumped gadget in arent as bad as this !! I thought it was very unfair actually as the only people who had a chance were the more pro ones .....

I would say all the people qualified so far i know from the SJ circuit meaning they are on it 99% of the time and all ride for a living x
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I jumped the Southview one at the weekend and every line was a dog leg related and yes it really did take some riding. Out of the 107 in it there wre about 50 clears, and if you looked at the clears, there wernt many true amateurs there! I work full time and have three horses, two are youngsters and the other is one i have brought through the ranks and has just hit grade a last weekend. She is amazing and very fast and i have watched my jump off back over and over again and i still cant believe i was only 11th! Ok i did miss two turns but these were turns inside to an upright where you had one stride but not even straight and had to jump it on an angle and the other was in to a huge true paralel going in to a double where you would have possibly one straight stride, both fences were at the 1.35m mark so you tell me how many amateurs can turn in to fences like that and get away with it? When i went in (23rd) no one had got away with those turns
 
We plan to jump the Rowallan one on our mare who is about £100 out of Newcomers. She won a blistering 1.20 Fox RHS qualifier on Sunday but if she had to go any faster than that I'd tell son not to. End of. Not in her best interests as a novice, but then we don't usually have a few spare Grade A's to gallop round 1.20!

Best of luck to everyone and huge celebrations if anyone does qualify.
 
measles said:
We plan to jump the Rowallan one on our mare who is about £100 out of Newcomers. She won a blistering 1.20 Fox RHS qualifier on Sunday but if she had to go any faster than that I'd tell son not to. End of. Not in her best interests as a novice, but then we don't usually have a few spare Grade A's to gallop round 1.20!

Best of luck to everyone and huge celebrations if anyone does qualify.
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woo hoo, well done for sun, thats great!! These are so hot! And to be honest i wouldnt gallop a novice round and turn up the way they do. will upload it to youtube then post the link, would be great to see your sons round from the weekend :) my next one will be Patchetts, Scotland just a little too far for me :(
 
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That was a great JO i wouldn't have taken those inside turns either! Maybe you could have gone i little tighter to the oxer in the middle of the course and taken a stride out to the last but that is being ultra critical and i could never go that fast! Well done :)
 
Escada2004 said:
I work full time and have three horses, two are youngsters and the other is one i have brought through the ranks and has just hit grade a last weekend. She is amazing and very fast and i have watched my jump off back over and over again and i still cant believe i was only 11th!
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Have I completely misunderstood this thread or did you drop your grade A (call it established B grade) into the C grade class? Or did you jump one of the youngsters? The brain's gone to cotton wool with study, so sorry if I've misread this :o

Your horse is stunning! As frustrated as you are with the 11th, you must get tingles watching that back!
 
I was in two minds about entering that class, im glad i didnt if that only got you 11th! I told trainer there wasnt any point because people go crazy fast in those qualifiers! (i wasnt far wrong!)
I know your horse, have competed against you and know that your quick! People must of be board rocket propelled horses! lol!
All the best, hope you manage to qualify.
 
GreyCoast said:
Have I completely misunderstood this thread or did you drop your grade A (call it established B grade) into the C grade class? Or did you jump one of the youngsters? The brain's gone to cotton wool with study, so sorry if I've misread this :o

Your horse is stunning! As frustrated as you are with the 11th, you must get tingles watching that back!
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Ha ha its ok, basically i have 3 horses, 2 are novices and the one in the video is a horse i have had for two years. she was grade c and now i have just got her to grade a. No way my novices are ready for that! That class is open to any grade horse :)
 
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I was over the moon with her and yes i admit, i could have shaved a little off of that but seeing as we have been to only 6 shows since the amateur finals at aintree last nov and the last time i did a jump off round that height was last summer in the same qualifier. I was pretty pleased with myself and her and not to mention she had 4 weeks off in April from a bruised sole! She is an amazing mare and really deserves to qualify, im just hoping we have a bit of luck and do it :) think we will take our wings with us next time!!
 
I can see why you were frustrated, that jump off was amazing! Good luck with the rest of the qualifiers.

The other thing that annoys me with BS is that second rounds are so much bigger than the the class that you have qualified in. I was at Towerlands the other day and they had a normal Discovery in one ring and a Discovery second round next to it. The difference between the two was ridiculous and that was just in it's first round! It difficult for people competing true to that level to progress any further, which I think links back to your point in that real amateurs are not always well catered for. I know eventing is different, but the difficulty off the regional finals and grassroots finals at lower levels are not vastly different to the qualifying rounds which I think is a much fairer way of doing it, although I'm not sure how well this would work out at BS.
 
Katie_B said:
The other thing that annoys me with BS is that second rounds are so much bigger than the the class that you have qualified in.

I totally agree with you there. I have a 7yo and she is a lovely mare, comfortably jumping newcomers at the moment but to jump the regional finals next year she needs to be winning at 1.35m level and i really cant see that happening! Mainly because i have to work full time so dont get out to as many shows so she is progressing slower than she would with a 'pro' and secondly because i havent the funds to travel the country every weekend!! Its great that they have a class at HOYS for amateurs, but it isnt really an amateur class at all.

I was very frustrated with just 11th place as personally i think it deserved more :( i can only get to two more of the qualifiers (patchetts and field house) so fingers crossed! The BS are supposed to be changing the rules for next year so we will just have to wait and see what they come up with!
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