HOYS Amateur classes have mostly pro's in them

measles said:
Just shows how fast these classes are and what risks riders have to take to be faster than that. Eek!

Great round and good enough to win a class on many a day...
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Thanks measles, yep i have won many a good class at that speed, and to think i was 6 seconds off the winner!!!! I am really going to have to up my game for Patchetts!! :(
 
I was talking to my trainer last night re this thread, he is in top 40, he was saying amateurs should up the game and not be bitter, thoughts??
 
JulieH said:
I was talking to my trainer last night re this thread, he is in top 40, he was saying amateurs should up the game and not be bitter, thoughts??
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Top 40 riders?! I think he probably doesn't have any idea what it is to be an amateur, especially one who isn't cash rich! Its not bitter - its just that we all pay the same fees as pros and expect to also have a fair chance if you are up to scratch. Competing against a pro who may have 5 horses in the JO is really not the same - 1 horse amateurs get 1 crack at getting the turns/experience round the JO, pros may get several gos before they get a fast enough round.

to the OP - that JO was fab, but as you've had more practise now, the next one you'll just have to put your foot down more. I'm only saying this in the hope that you'll post the vid! :)
 
JulieH said:
I was talking to my trainer last night re this thread, he is in top 40, he was saying amateurs should up the game and not be bitter, thoughts??
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I've heard that argument before but why call it amateur classes when anyone can enter. As for 'uping their game' I agree with the sentiment but someone working fulltime is only going to be able to up their game a certain amount compared to someone who is riding all day everyday and is arguably in a better position to get their horses ready.
 
The problem is the prize is so high....the chance to ride at HOYS, even for many pro's is little more than a dream.

It also doesn't really matter where you draw the line.....there will always be those who push the boundaries.

Think of it this way, if you get 100+ people chasing a 1.20m class, how many do you think you'd get chasing a 1.10m amateur class or smaller?

At Hickstead they stipulate you mustn't be competing at 1.30m or above at the same show (easy for them to stipulate and police when there are so many 1.30m classes at Hickstead) and that you haven't ridden on a team for the past 5 years. You will still find numerous 'full time amateurs' as I call them chasing the classes though.
 
Escada2004 said:
I think in Ireland they have a limit on the height classes you can jump to be classed as a pro and i think that that would possibly be the fairest way of doing it as its the ones that have 1.40m horses that then drop them down to the amateur class just to get a HOYS ticket that are making the class unfair.
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To compete in amateur classes under the SJI you have to register as an amateur at the start of the year, and then you cannot jump 1.20m or above for that year. Amateur classes fall into two height ranges, 1.05m and 1.15m, afaik, and prizes are in kind rather than cash. I think it's a lot fairer in some ways, as pros can't enter, but it is usually the same people who win every class, and they go crazy fast to do it! I was registered as an Am in my first year competing, but I was riding a very green 4yo, so never got to the height range, and realised very quickly that there was no way I was ever going to be able to rally him around like poop off a shovel to win a class! Maybe if I buy a more experienced horse I would go back to the amateurs, think it would be good experience :)
 
Escada2004 - Great round, can't believe that only got you 11th!! I was at SV on Sunday and I thought i heard that Sarah Williams had won the HOYS qualifier - is that right?
 
They are quick classes, and well supported as there aren't that many of them in a year.

You could argue as well that a 1 horse amateur owner has a better chance as they know their horse inside out and what it can do. I've watched a few of these classes and one of them there was only 3 DCs, and one of them wasn't fast. So you proabably need a bit of luck and a jump off that suits your horse.

I watched the final at HOYS one year and the course looked jumpable - it doesn't get stupid big if you make it that far.
 
Katie_B said:
The other thing that annoys me with BS is that second rounds are so much bigger than the the class that you have qualified in. I was at Towerlands the other day and they had a normal Discovery in one ring and a Discovery second round next to it. The difference between the two was ridiculous and that was just in it's first round!
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Yes - that's exactly what I think! There is nothing remotely 'amateur' about these classes.

We affiliated to BS a few years ago, and went to a show on grass and qualified at 1m for the amateur championships. Naively we went off to the 2nd round all excited, and found they were 1.10, indoors, and so technical and tightly built you had to do practically do a canter half-pass to get to fence 1. It was all too much and our fault for not reading the rules, but I stupidly thought a class called a 1m class was a 1m class. Silly me.

I have since been told you should qualify at a level below which you are capable of, so you can manage the next round, but does that mean we spend our summer jumping 10cm below what we want, just for a shot at a championships that we will never get to? Or just not bother with the National Amateur qualifiers and just do the normal classes? Most of our local shows only seemed to put on the Nat Am stuff, so we didn't bother to renew our membership and have retreated to the safety of Pony Club where we understand the rules (just!).
 
JulieH said:
I was talking to my trainer last night re this thread, he is in top 40, he was saying amateurs should up the game and not be bitter, thoughts??
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Hey, im not saying im scared of taking on the pro's and i will give it my all as i love a challenge. What i am saying is what has been mentioned that a pro riding all day every day with a number of horses in a class is obviously going to have more of a chance than an amateur who only competes a couple of times a month and has one horse at that level. I competed on the teams as a junior in ponies and i know how hard it was and back then i was out competing every weekend and travelling the country. Now im just a 'part time' competitor i can see the difference when i havent been to a show for a couple of weeks it does make it harder to be on form in a jump off where you are practically flat out turning up on nothing to a decent fence. So having been a full time rider and now a part time rider i can compare and i definatley say there is a dissadvantage to the true amateurs who dont get to compete so often and on a number of horses.

Thanks to all for your nice comments on my round and yes now ive had a good one i will be even more confident to turn a bit tighter next time! Last year at southview there were only 4 double clears, yet i thought it was bigger this year! So im just hoping either Patchetts or Fieldhouse will be one of those with not so many double clears :) i watched the final the last two years and no they dont stick it up and its been a good class.

Sorry i cant remember the name of the winner, she wasnt someone i knew :confused:
 
JulieH said:
I was talking to my trainer last night re this thread, he is in top 40, he was saying amateurs should up the game and not be bitter, thoughts??
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i think thats not a very productive thing to say , putting it politely!

(im not a bitter amateur either so no axe to grind!)

I'd love to know how can a one horse owner / rider with a full time job, limited funds to spend on horses, who probably does one third of the amount of shows as a seasoned rider does, meant to 'up their game' to the extent to which they can beat the kind of rider who jumps 3+ horses in over 1.30 classes week in week out?!
 
Llewelyn said:
Yes - that's exactly what I think! There is nothing remotely 'amateur' about these classes.

We affiliated to BS a few years ago, and went to a show on grass and qualified at 1m for the amateur championships. Naively we went off to the 2nd round all excited, and found they were 1.10, indoors, and so technical and tightly built you had to do practically do a canter half-pass to get to fence 1. It was all too much and our fault for not reading the rules, but I stupidly thought a class called a 1m class was a 1m class. Silly me.

I have since been told you should qualify at a level below which you are capable of, so you can manage the next round, but does that mean we spend our summer jumping 10cm below what we want, just for a shot at a championships that we will never get to? Or just not bother with the National Amateur qualifiers and just do the normal classes? Most of our local shows only seemed to put on the Nat Am stuff, so we didn't bother to renew our membership and have retreated to the safety of Pony Club where we understand the rules (just!).
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I do believe that the 2nd rounds should be higher, however not as high as the novice classes go. The Amateur qualifiers arnt too bad, i guess it depends on where you go as i have qualified 90cm, 1m, 1.10m and 1.15m finals for the last two years on my two horses and not noticed a difference in the height in the 2nd rounds (maybe the 90cm was a little higher). The finals at Aintree have been very good and its only the grand final on the last day that ends up being higher than the qualifiers really. I think they should make it a little more difficult for 2nd rounds/finals as it pushes you that little bit more which is good
 
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claire_p2001 said:
I found this on You Tube the winning round of the Summer House qualifier

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuSH3-SPi_k

Escada - i think your round looked just as fast as this so maybe SouthView had really hot competition. Fingers crossed for you for Patchetts maybe see you there :)
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Thanks Claire, my friend was second at summerhouse and he said it wasnt as fast as southview! So fingers crossed i can go as fast next time and leave them up :) Yes def let me know if your at Patchetts :)
 
OMG just watched it again, i wish i had gone!! Wasnt as big either - my mare had only just come back in to work as she was off for 4 weeks with a bruised foot - how frustrating!!
 
Yes, it was Sarah Williams who won at SV.

This is a common subject between me and my trainer as it can be frustrating when you see the start list and almost know who the top 3 will be before the class starts!

I think the only way they can restrict it to 'proper' amateurs is to have amateurs classed as jumping 1.20 and below and if you want to jump bigger then you move into the next grade and are no longer able to jump amateur classes.

On a positive note, good luck at Patchetts and Fieldhouse! We will come and cheer you on at HOYS when you qualify. :)
 
Escada2004 you deserve to qualify, you ride yor little socks off! And I agree, why they bother calling it an amateur class I would love to know. It should be called amateurs give it a go and pros have an easy ride.
 
Thanks BuckingHorse, just hope i get there and do all my fellow amateurs proud :D

And well said nothing but horsey ;)

i cant believe how many views this post has and i really hope that something is done about it! I dont blame anyone who jumps in it and isnt breaking the rules, its the BS who need to decide if its a proper amateur class or an open to anyone who wants a HOYS ticket!! And i agree BuckingHorse that it should be limited to people jumping a certain height, i think thats the best and only way of policing it :)
 
I'm afraid that I have to agree with a previous thread who commented that her trainer (who is in the top 40) believes that amateurs need to up there game. If an amateur were to be classed as a rider who had a full time job, but had a very good horse, was an experienced rider and presented them self in a very professional manner would that be okay?

Why can a true amateur not be jumping 1.40ms and being competitive at that level? As amateurs are we not selling ourselves short by saying that we need to make it easier to qualify?

Nicky
 
NickyClassic13 said:
I'm afraid that I have to agree with a previous thread who commented that her trainer (who is in the top 40) believes that amateurs need to up there game. If an amateur were to be classed as a rider who had a full time job, but had a very good horse, was an experienced rider and presented them self in a very professional manner would that be okay?

Why can a true amateur not be jumping 1.40ms and being competitive at that level? As amateurs are we not selling ourselves short by saying that we need to make it easier to qualify?

Nicky
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As amateurs we are not selling ourselves short, all we are saying is that there needs to be more of a define between who is an amateur and who is a pro - i have jumped big tracks in the past many years ago, but dont now have the time or money to keep more than one horse going at that level and i think a lot will agree with me. Like i have said before i love a challenge and it feels real good if im in a class against pro's and and beat them, however when you are in a class that is technically supposed to be for people who dont compete for a living as such, it is very dissapointing when you are against people who are out every weekend with 3/4/5 horses and have that many horses in a qualifier at that level. Surely if you are competing a horse at 1.40m you are selling yourself short by dropping your horse down to 1.20m just to get a HOYS ticket????? It works both ways ;)
 
''I'm afraid that I have to agree with a previous thread who commented that her trainer (who is in the top 40) believes that amateurs need to up there game''

erm,
did you even watch that video???!!!!!!!!!!!!
if those amateurs up their game much more, there wont be a job left for the pro's! :D

and lets face it, which of us amateurs can afford multiple owners and 30k + horses?
cos if you checked the start list at sview, they made up most of the numbers.
i think all is being asked for is a level playing field, not an easy option!
 
The difference between the amateurs and the pro's is simple...

After the pro's have ridden their 8-10 horses a day and are snuggled up at home in front of the tv by about 7pm, I (the amateur) get off my train and make my way to the yard to ride my one half-decent horse. I left home at 5.30am and have done a full days work and some by the time I get to the yard at 7pm. I then have to motivate myself to ride for another hour, skip out two, and generally 'spend some time with the horses'. When i'm done I make the 20min drive home and cook dinner.....around 10pm my 'day' is over and i can 'relax'....or perhaps I should say 'go to bed' LOL!
 
In some respects I do agree, but how do you draw a line between the ams and pros. Should an amateur jumping at 1.30m/1.40m not be recognised for hard work and commitment and possibly many years of producing a good horse?

I actually think that the heights of amateur classes could be raised to offer something then to the amateurs that struggle to be competitive at 1.40m but don't want to fly round like hooligans at 1.20m/1.25m. If you are going to offer a class at HOYS or British Open should it now be for the very best of British amateurs? And accept that they may be jumping higher tracks and dropping there horses down to win a national title that they are entitled to as someone with a full time job?

Nicky
 
the problem is with the clasification of the 'amateur' i would not call every person who works in horses a pro as i have many a friend who does yet they havent got one let along 2/3/4 horses at 1.40m level. Now yes there are the odd one or two amateurs that have been lucky enough to get there hands on a horse at that level, but to be honest if i had one i would feel i was cheating myself and my horse if i dropped it down to 1.20m just for a HOYS ticket?? I thought the whole point of this class was to give the amateurs of the sport that are at the 1.20m ish level a chance to qualify for HOYS as there are so many classes for the higher level already? So if practically anyone can jump in it whats the point in having an amateur class??? The national amateur champs are more restricted and none of the pros are interested in jumping and qualifying for that, yet its still a good title to hold dont you think???
 
how about the following classification for entitlement "riders are not eligible if they have competed more than 2 horses at 1m30 level+ within the last 6 months from date of the qualifier"

You will always get some who creep through but that should eliminate most of the pros who currently can enter and I doubt there are many true amatuers who would get excluded by it either!
 
Santa_Claus said:
how about the following classification for entitlement "riders are not eligible if they have competed more than 2 horses at 1m30 level+ within the last 6 months from date of the qualifier"

You will always get some who creep through but that should eliminate most of the pros who currently can enter and I doubt there are many true amatuers who would get excluded by it either!
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Its a good idea, however it would be very hard for the BS to police it i think
 
Escada2004 said:
Its a good idea, however it would be very hard for the BS to police it i think
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you would also find a lot of pro give their horses to friends etc to compete on in these classes !!! well known (think brittish no1) wife competes in them a lot she wont be jumping big classes but funnily enough im sure the horse she had in it at Vicarage Farm one the Derby last year !!
 
wouldn't take long to check record of qualifying riders as there are what 20/30 total for final? and if someone found not to be eligible it passes down the line simples ;)

as for top horses being given to other riders to ride well nothing wrong with that if rider is eligible as you can put anyone on a top horse but doesn't mean it will jump/win ;)
 
shark1 said:
Its the wording of the restriction on who can enter that needs looking at.

I think maybe a wording like 'rider not to have competed at 1.30 or above in the last 2 years' would really let the true part time amateur in which is what I thought it was meant to be aimed at.
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I agree with this ^^^

I also think maybe only let riders have one horse in the qualifying classes. I know they're only allowed one in the final but if you've got 3 horses in the class you're likely to have a better chance than those with one horse. I know show jumping isn't really fair in many ways but i don't really see the point in the class if it's just pros dropping down to jump 1.20m at HOYS on a 1.40m horse.

Having said all of that if i had a 1.40m horse not up to big HOYS classes but had a chance in the amateur would i go for it?.........
 
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