HOYS and the overweight debate

irish_only

irish_only

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Not sure if this is the right place to post, but went to HOYS wednesday, and watched the Welsh C and D classes, and the M&M final, and also the Show hunters and final.
Why oh why are so many M&M's still overweight. The hunters I saw looked well, and given a short amount of fittening up mostly looked like they would be ready to go hunting. Sadly the same could not be said for the M&Ms, who if they came to live with me looked like they needed a change of diet and ridden work to get rid of the excess.
Do you think any judge will ever be brave enough to take a stand on this issue?
 
Some do, but rarely the ones at the top end of the job - why is this?

It's not as if there hasn't been a lot of debate about it - some judges have even been published in H&H saying that they wouldn't put an obese pony at the top of the line - where are they at the finals?

Incidentally, who allocates the judges at HOYS - is it the pony societies/associations who are responsible or the organising committee? Whoever it is needs to bring themselves into 21st century regarding the welfare issues relating to obese horses and ponies and realise that it is not acceptable!

I detest seeing a fat animal (can you tell?) being placed over a fit one - something needs to be done!
 
I was also there and thought they were all beautiful but I did drop into conversation with my non horsey mum how similar, in build and condition, they looked to my very fat Welsh at the moment, jokingly!

I thought the Dartmoor/Exmoor/Shettie class was the one with more obese ponies in, in my opinion.

We also had a laugh at Winneydene Maylower when her saddle came off in the championship gallop, just like my mare, when she's a bit porky! Happens to the best!

I was also surprised at their weight but quickly forgot as I was blown away by their beautiful heads and breathtaking movement.

Very pleased Winneydene Mayflower took the class and Res Ch. she did a beautiful show and really held her own against the stallions.

Fingers crossed for Pumphill Buckthorn to take Working Hunter Ch or Supreme POY!
 
irish_only said:
Not sure if this is the right place to post, but went to HOYS wednesday, and watched the Welsh C and D classes, and the M&M final, and also the Show hunters and final.
Why oh why are so many M&M's still overweight. The hunters I saw looked well, and given a short amount of fittening up mostly looked like they would be ready to go hunting. Sadly the same could not be said for the M&Ms, who if they came to live with me looked like they needed a change of diet and ridden work to get rid of the excess.
Do you think any judge will ever be brave enough to take a stand on this issue?
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No, they won't. Sadly. I went last year and could have wept at the obese ponies put forward in ALL showing classes, flat and jumping. Wept and cheerfully thumped their deluded and ignorant owners. I think weighbridges and prosecutions are the way forward.
 
tobysg said:
I was also there and thought they were all beautiful but I did drop into conversation with my non horsey mum how similar, in build and condition, they looked to my very fat Welsh at the moment, jokingly!

I thought the Dartmoor/Exmoor/Shettie class was the one with more obese ponies in, in my opinion.

We also had a laugh at Winneydene Maylower when her saddle came off in the championship gallop, just like my mare, when she's a bit porky! Happens to the best!

I was also surprised at their weight but quickly forgot as I was blown away by their beautiful heads and breathtaking movement.

Very pleased Winneydene Mayflower took the class and Res Ch. she did a beautiful show and really held her own against the stallions.

Fingers crossed for Pumphill Buckthorn to take Working Hunter Ch or Supreme POY!
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In which case you need to do something about your own pony and fast and stop having such a neutral and easily deflected attitude about the weight of a pony.

All owners of fat ponies are sowing the seeds of ill health in their animals. They may not, unlike myself, be left with picking up the pieces after EMS wreaks havoc with the pony.

Makes me seethe. Beautiful heads matter not when they are crippled and sweating with the pain of laminitis. WAKE UP!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
 
Remember I asked before why this cruelty is allowed to go on in the show ring but is picked up and acted upon (mainly) in the other disciplines? Remember the responses I got?

Bring up cruelty in show jumping (i.e. excessive whip use) or dressage (i.e. Rollkur) and in the main you'll get responses from a lot of people actively competing in the same sport condemning the actions of their fellow competitors. Bring up cruelty in showing and in the main, their fellow show riders will deny that it's cruel or, where possible, deny that it happens at all! (I posted about a pony on the yard I worked on having it's mouth cut as it was taking too much of a contact when ridden without drawreins, but apparently I'm a liar and a troll for mentioning it on here.)

Until a higher number of people actively involved in the showing world see their animals as animals rather than trophies, nothing will change.
 
brighteyes said:
In which case you need to do something about your own pony and fast and stop having such a neutral and easily deflected attitude about the weight of a pony.

All owners of fat ponies are sowing the seeds of ill health in their animals. They may not, unlike myself, be left with picking up the pieces after EMS wreaks havoc with the pony.

Makes me seethe. Beautiful heads matter not when they are crippled and sweating with the pain of laminitis. WAKE UP!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
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Thank you for posting this brighteyes - saved me all the typing! Couldn't agree more.

Am also intrigued by the comment about the saddle coming off in the gallop! So not only is it ok to potentially cripple / kill a pony due to weight associated issues, it's also absolutely fine to endanger a child - complete MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I am up against this all the time. I breed connemaras ponies and it really upsets and angers me why these judges are still putting overweight ponies at the top of the line. I concentrate on breeding for performance not showing because until this changes i do not want to be a part of it.
 
I really don't understand this need for show horses to be so well covered, or the need for them to be at the very top of the height limit for their class. A show animal should be judged on its conformation, paces, manners and turnout - surely these can all be judged whether the horse is fat, lean, small or large. :confused: :confused:
 
edenwood said:
I am up against this all the time. I breed connemaras ponies and it really upsets and angers me why these judges are still putting overweight ponies at the top of the line. I concentrate on breeding for performance not showing because until this changes i do not want to be a part of it.
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I used to show connemara ponies and was constantly told that my fit, well schooled ponies were very nice but needed more condition to be in the top placings. In all honesty at that time they were already carrying a little more condition than I really wanted, there was no way I would put even an ounce more on them. Two are now really retired from competition and on loan to friends who hack then and do the odd RC dressage, they are trim and looking great, the 3rd is successfully eventing and is lean and very fit. I would never go back to showing as whatever is said - fat ponies are preferred by judges to fit ponies.
 
Being a Highland owner..well they are delightfully cuddley anyway;Mine has to wear a grazing muzzle in mid summer to have any semblance of a Highland style figure.Years ago one Highland did do endurance rides,it was then that :D her owner discovered that the breed does actually have ribs at all, as they could be vaguely FELT under her skin,no hope of a glimpse though.:D
 
Oh dear, I replied lightheartedly and look what I got!

I just got back from putting my fat welsh out in her muzzle after coming in to straw only and exercise.

Maybe you should read my other post regarding the welfare of my horse before telling me what to do.

In fact, carry on, it's funny!

SORRY for ENJOYING and appreciating the quality of the horses in the Mountain and Moorland Pony of the Year.

Banter on a Sunday whilst doing my uni work :o)
 
Not mentioning what breed, but I saw what should have been a very nice stallion a few years ago, and decided against using it because it moved and dished horrendously. Imagine how surprised I was 2 years later when the same stallion appeared in a stallion parade. With different owners, fit, movement straight as a die, and floating over the ground.
Reason? No huge lumps of fat all over his body, shoulder, chest etc inhibiting his natural movement.
Wonder how much better a show animal would move without the excess pounds?
 
tobysg said:
Oh dear, I replied lightheartedly and look what I got!

I just got back from putting my fat welsh out in her muzzle after coming in to straw only and exercise.

Maybe you should read my other post regarding the welfare of my horse before telling me what to do.

In fact, carry on, it's funny!

SORRY for ENJOYING and appreciating the quality of the horses in the Mountain and Moorland Pony of the Year.

Banter on a Sunday whilst doing my uni work :o)
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Don't worry, you are not the first person Brighteye's has jumped on without asking any questions first!!! She has a very high horse.
 
OP have you ever owned an M&M and tried to get the weight off one?

I know that ponies being overweight is a major problem in showing and I agree that something needs to be done about it. But as a fell owner, I also know the amount of work and effort it can take to get these ponies to be the correct weight. When I first got my fell she was obese. I have had her for 4 years now, and she is still slightly overweight. But what else can I do. She out for a couple of hours a day with a grass mask, on minimal soaked hay when she's in at night and on minimal feed (a balancer). She is also medium/hard work.

This new scheme has only been around for a couple of years now, and we can't expect these ponies to drop down to the correct weight in a couple of months. It takes years of hard work. We forget that they were originally meant to live in the wild on almost nothing. The difference is that these ponies are now overweight, not obese so it is working but i'll will take longer with M&M's than it may with hunters or riding horses.
 
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fuzz said:
OP have you ever owned an M&M and tried to get the weight off one?

Yes I have, and I have also looked after a M&M who I kept trim and in good order for a friend. She used to think I was being mean and not feeding enough, but now she looks after her own and realises that less is much better.

I know that ponies being overweight is a major problem in showing and I agree that something needs to be done about it. But as a fell owner, I also know the amount of work and effort it can take to get these ponies to be the correct weight. When I first got my fell she was obese. I have had her for 4 years now, and she is still slightly overweight. But what else can I do. She out for a couple of hours a day with a grass mask, on minimal soaked hay when she's in at night and on minimal feed (a balancer). She is also medium/hard work.
I sympathise with you, but YOU didn't let her become obese and ended up having the awful problem of sorting it out.

This new scheme has only been around for a couple of years now, and we can't expect these ponies to drop down to the correct weight in a couple of months. It takes years of hard work. We forget that they were originally meant to live in the wild on almost nothing.
That's exactly the point, but the show ponies are crammed full of feed and rugged up to the eyeballs as well so no chance of burning it of that way either.

The difference is that these ponies are now overweight, not obese so it is working but i'll will take longer with M&M's than it may with hunters or riding horses.
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I have also had the awful job of convincing someone to have two very laminitic ponies pts, and being with them at the end. It was avoidable and unneccessary.

Let's hope some of those guilty as charged read this?
 
I remember reading an article in H & H a few years ago, when it said that people were getting vets out to their show horses as they were convinced they back problems, when in fact the problem was that they were on the verge of laminitis.
 
If one goes back to the old days before compound feeds, the excessive use of feed balancers and feed companies sponsoring riders, an obese show horse/pony was an anomaly and dealt with very severely by the judges.
I suggest the digging out of such tomes as Horsemans Year from 1940 to 1954 or any Horse and Hound Year Book of a similar vintage to see what show ring animals should look like.
 
fuzz

I have, though am not the OP, and currently do manage ALL my good doers (one is a native, others native crosses) and the big difference with me and you is we are trying our utmost to beat the genetics which make our ponies put on the fat they need for the winter months during the summer. Only they no longer NEED the fat stores laid down by their dual metabolism as we feed them therough the winter! It's THAT basic element of ponies' makeup which everyone seems to have forgotten and those p!11ocks who insist on packing these ponies til they burst IN THE NAME OF RIBBONS need penalising heavily. Ignorance leading to laminitis is bad enough, to do it deliberately is unforgivable.
My Irish cob pony is on loan to a young girl who lives ON A DAIRY FARM. She can keeps this pony in a condition score of 3, so there's no excuse for anyone else. She is a credit to young pony-owners.

Here she is - sorry front half only!

MerryatGems.jpg
 
tobysg said:
I have a Welsh who is looking very fat at the moment.

She is out with a grazing muzzle on all of the time she's out or stays in at night with a double netted haynet, tonight it was 12 kilos but usually more.
If I don't give her enough hay then she eats all of her bed of straw, she has even eaten shavings...

She is ridden around 5 times a week and is relatively fit. Has had two weeks of no/v light jumping as just done an ODE, show and 3 showjumping competitions in consecutive weeks which is alot for a horse who had never jumped competitively before August and she was placed in every class.
I didn't want her to turn sour so gave her some time of just normal schooling and hacking.

I am doing a showjumping competition next week on her possibly.

I schooled her today and really made her give me her best extended trot on both reins and really made her work properly and quite hard but it was for only 25 minutes as it got dark!
When I got in she was literally completely wet with sweat from ears to the end of the saddle!

I didn't really want to clip her yet as I don't want to rug her as she heats up very fast in rugs and I just prefer her without.

Do I clip and rug a VERY fat horse or rough her out so she loses weight but end up with a very sweaty horse on milder days like this when exercised.

just doesn't seem right putting a rug on such a fattie!

And before anyone queries it's not fat- it is! She has a slight gutter down her back, a huge arse and a massive belly with an extra cresty neck, grrr!

Oh and she doesn't get feeds- ever. She's got too much energy as it is!

Also she can be a real handful to ride due to excess energy. she got lunged twice and hacked and still was like being sat on a rocket in the school.

Please no rude answers, I tried to portray the fact I do not endorse her weight and I don't need reminding or educating on the implications of it.I know, hence why I have posted this and have done what I have done.

Simply a do I/ don't I clip, friendly answer :)
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tobysg said:
Oh dear, I replied lightheartedly and look what I got!

I just got back from putting my fat welsh out in her muzzle after coming in to straw only and exercise.

Maybe you should read my other post regarding the welfare of my horse before telling me what to do.

In fact, carry on, it's funny!

SORRY for ENJOYING and appreciating the quality of the horses in the Mountain and Moorland Pony of the Year.

Banter on a Sunday whilst doing my uni work :o)
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I don't think anyone is knocking you for appreciating the M&M's movement etc
but the issue of obesity is an emotive one.

Part of my business (in addition to the competition horses) is the rehabilitation of animals with welfare issues and unfortunately I have had plenty of experience with horses that have not only health but psychological problems that can be related directly to inappropriate feeding. So many people don't realise that a horse only requires 2% of it's bodyweight as a maintenance diet (I tend to reduce to 1 1/2% with exercise to get the weight off). These are often the same people who over-estimate the level of work their horses are doing. Ergo, a fat horse.

I commend your efforts to restrict your mare's grazing with a muzzle but, realistically, how did she get that fat in the first place? (If you only recently acquired her then I apologise - it was someone elses responsibility).

Hopefully, people will start to realise that obesity is a human-induced condition and start managing their horses appropriately.

Incidentally, I have 2 Sec D's with me permanently now who arrived grossly overweight with a variety of physiological and psychological problems between them. They can now do serious canter work for an hour without sweating up and they only get 9kg feeding.

Please feel free to accuse me (along with brighteyes) of being on my high horse - I do actually carry a portable soapbox with me when it comes to weight issues.
 
brighteyes said:
fuzz

I have, though am not the OP, and currently do manage ALL my good doers (one is a native, others native crosses) and the big difference with me and you is we are trying our utmost to beat the genetics which make our ponies put on the fat they need for the winter months during the summer. Only they no longer NEED the fat stores laid down by their dual metabolism as we feed them therough the winter! It's THAT basic element of ponies' makeup which everyone seems to have forgotten and those p!11ocks who insist on packing these ponies til they burst IN THE NAME OF RIBBONS need penalising heavily. Ignorance leading to laminitis is bad enough, to do it deliberately is unforgivable.
My Irish cob pony is on loan to a young girl who lives ON A DAIRY FARM. She can keeps this pony in a condition score of 3, so there's no excuse for anyone else. She is a credit to young pony-owners.

Here she is - sorry front half only!

MerryatGems.jpg
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I think you've misread my reply. I AM trying to do all I can to get rid of her weight and get her down to the right weight. I am also aware that I will probably need to get her to be too thin and build her back up to the correct weight.

This is her:

6thJuly2010106.jpg


I also said that I agree that something should be done about it. I was just saying that people should stop expecting it to happen overnight as its takes a lot of time to get these horses down to the correct weight. These horses used to be obese, they are now overweight. It is working, but people have to be patient. Think about it, if you were a judges position for a hoys qualifier what would you do?
 
fuzz said:
OP have you ever owned an M&M and tried to get the weight off one?

I know that ponies being overweight is a major problem in showing and I agree that something needs to be done about it. But as a fell owner, I also know the amount of work and effort it can take to get these ponies to be the correct weight. When I first got my fell she was obese. I have had her for 4 years now, and she is still slightly overweight. But what else can I do. She out for a couple of hours a day with a grass mask, on minimal soaked hay when she's in at night and on minimal feed (a balancer). She is also medium/hard work.

This new scheme has only been around for a couple of years now, and we can't expect these ponies to drop down to the correct weight in a couple of months. It takes years of hard work. We forget that they were originally meant to live in the wild on almost nothing. The difference is that these ponies are now overweight, not obese so it is working but i'll will take longer with M&M's than it may with hunters or riding horses.
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Well said. Making a horse lose too much weight too quickly is also detrimental to its health. Well done you doing it the right way:)
 
I Pm'ed the person who queried my horse politely.

I regret answering in banter and bringing my chubber into this!

I'm tired, it's bedtime and the response with the least brainpower involved is-

Yes, I am a cruel, evil horse owner, along with all the HOYS Welsh D/C owners.
I feed her 4 times a day and turn her out in knee length grass and never exercise her.

Oh, and those suggesting I was cheering on a child getting injured or whatever you were moaning about.
It was man who is a showing producer and his saddle slipped but he got it back again, its in the H&H report if your that 'intrigued'.
Keep your hair on! Haha!
Actually no, yes I am fully FOR children getting injured...obviously, isn't everyone?
jeez.

Can't wait to read the abuse tomorrow :D
 
So a serious post about a welfare issue, which appears to be being ignored by the 'showcase; showjudges turns into rudeness to a poster who quite rightly feels strongly about the issue, and stupidity from an immature fool, wonderful.
If the HOYS judges had been putting up horses which were severly underweight, would the replies have been of the same ilk? I doubt it somehow.
I do wonder if one of the reasons for this is that so many people are above their 'ideal' weight, and convince themselves this is not important and transfer this attitude to their horses weight.
 
One of the resaons I left my old yard was because I was fed up of being told my condition score 3 horses were too thin (poor was the word used!). Of 18 horses there was only one other that didn't wobble when it walked.
Went to visit a friend at the weekend as she reckoned her horse wasn't fat anymore - well on the 1-5 scale I reckon he's gone from a 6 to 5.75! But she is convinced he has lost masses of weight & is slim!
So many people now have a distorted view of what a horse should look like that it is near on impossible to convince them that their horses are overweight at all when, in fact, they are obese. It was good to see Spillers taking a weighbridge to some events this summer, but that still leaves a a lot of people looking at their horse's condition through rose tinted specs.
 
Can I make the point that this post is NOT meant to be personal.
It is a question that is being asked over and over again, and I think two of the main problems are:
Producers / judges with obviously overweight animals
Feed producers with recommended daily feed amounts that do not add up to those recommended by independent nutrionists

ie straight off the bag-
13.2hh 350kg Pony Club Pony in light to medium work
2kg of Horse and Pony Cubes or Cool Mix
5kg of Hay or 7-8kg of haylage

15.2hh 500kg Riding Club Horse in light work
3kg of Horse and Pony Cubes or Cool Mix
7kg of Hay or 10kg of haylage

Both these recomendations add up to the weight/feed advised, but would you really feed that amount of hard feed? And doesn't everyone add sugar beet, high value chop etc etc which pushes the weights up and up.

If anyone entering the world of showing sees over topped animals constantly winning, they will join the club because you can't beat it any other way.
 
yorksG said:
................................
I do wonder if one of the reasons for this is that so many people are above their 'ideal' weight, and convince themselves this is not important and transfer this attitude to their horses weight.
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Not exactly a response to the thread, but Sky 3 had a programme on last night called "Fat Animals, Fat People" - it was dealing with exactly the above issue but I couldn't bring myself to watch!
 
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