HOYS and the overweight debate

Well we do try,but Morag just wants to look as a Highland should;we don`t feed anything until she starts to show a bit of shape,never hard feed either,just hayledge. It is very difficult indeed to keep a native bred to survive a Scottish winter outside on heather and rubbish grazing at a slim weight.They are a strong ,tough breed,live on air alone..and actually we love our deep yellow dun cuddly girlie,with her yards of black mane.
She was shown ,and did really wellin her youth,Highlands are beautiful !
 
Highlands would definitely be on my shopping list if I had endless time and resources, lovely creatures.

What about the Burghley YE in hand classes - they manage to not look like something being prepared for the fatstock class? Maybe their judges could organise seminars on conditioning?
 
I have a poor doer and a good doer. The poor doer is definetely the easiest to manage. The good doer had PSD and has never come fully sound so I can't work it off her. She is out in a muzzle overnight in the summer, in with soaked hay during the day and overnight in the winter.

She is fed one scoop of Dengie good doer so that I can give her the supplements she needs and she is still overweight.

We don't have lush grass she is just a very, very good doer. I am taking her barefoot and I think once she has got used to it and I have got my hoof boots I will have to start walking her out in hand. It is a constant worry. Before the PSD I could lunge her when i couldnt ride.

Give me a poor doer anyday.
 
yorksG said:
So a serious post about a welfare issue, which appears to be being ignored by the 'showcase; showjudges turns into rudeness to a poster who quite rightly feels strongly about the issue, and stupidity from an immature fool, wonderful.
If the HOYS judges had been putting up horses which were severly underweight, would the replies have been of the same ilk? I doubt it somehow.
I do wonder if one of the reasons for this is that so many people are above their 'ideal' weight, and convince themselves this is not important and transfer this attitude to their horses weight.
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Of course they do - I find it in my own family, even. Which is sad as ponies don't understand about metabolism and calories, EMS and laminitis. That is in our hands and they are at the mercy of our conscience, awareness and, I'm afraid in lots of cases morals and scruples. I don't find any degree of fatness, chubbiness, peachy-bottomed lardiness - call it what you will - funny in the slightest. It is frankly appalling that it is allowed to happen at all, never mind condoned/encouraged in competitive spheres.

A saddle slipping round a fat pony - shocking, and any degree of similarity between that pony and one's own should be a source of grave consternation, not amusement. Sorry. Well, actually, NOT sorry. And I'll get on as high a horse as you care to provide on this matter.
 
Its not just the overweight issue that needs addressing - its the overheight one too! 15.1 cobs... what a joke most of them look much bigger than that... Why oh why do people feel the need to get them so fat and to keep putting oversize horses into cob classes especially...:(
 
I'm not sure how we can end what has become accepted as 'normal.'

Once upon a time "topline" was something that was achieved through hours of correct work and schooling. Now it is often created by standing horses in side reins in the stable so they learn to hold their heads in the 'right' place, and shovelling food into them so that they have massive crests and backsides.

Jack and I dabble in a bit of showing now and again, in a line up of sec D's he looks like a racehorse compared to the obese monsters that can hardly canter round the ring.
 
Every sport can have potential abuse, but that is no excuse to ignore it. I knew a smashing new forest on loan to a friend. Did sj, xc etc, was a star. Her feed was appropriate & in the summer she wore a grazing muzzle (livery yard had large lush fields). Went back to owners as their daughter had grown tall enough for her, all they did was feed her (with little exercise & turn her out in same livery yard fields with no muzzle. Was very obese when they moved her to another yard, heard through farrier by the end of the summer he could do nothing to save her (when they eventually called him). Pedal bones rotated etc, terrible laminitis, had to be PTS. Pony was 7 years old.

Abuse in all forms should be addressed, & every effort made to prevent it. Unfortunately where you involve money, prestige etc people will use methods to achieve that bit more (than maybe the horse is actually capable of) to win. I was told obesity in show animals was used to hide faults. If it can be on the mark sheet as a fault in its own right, then obese animals will be penalised & ther will be positive reason for people to produce an animal in good condition.

In an ideal world, & if there was space (which there never is), a true test would be a circuit of 2-3 miles which the horse would have to complete within a set time, then it's pulse would have to be under a certain rate (say 64 beats per minute as used in endurance) within 20 minutes of finishing. Only horses proving this level of fitness would then be allowed in the ring. It would certainly sort the fat from the fit!

Can you tell I come from endurance where obesity just doesn't happen? I find it a real shock walking around shows at just how many fat horses there are. Endurance horses are reknown for their long competative careers. The father of my girl came 3rd in a 100 mile race aged 19, another horse Appalousie Firefly is still doing competative rides (albiet shorter these days) aged 28 & looks fantastic. Could the fact they don't carry excess weight be a factor? They do mare miles over any terrain than all other horse sports so it's not like they aren't exposed to wear & tear.
 
Here is my fat pony story

I came to my current job last year, one of them is\was a very overweight polo pony, and i mean over weight. She is roughly 18.

Over the last year she has been mostly in continual work, i feed her very little hard feed and she gets small amounts of hay when she is in.
She has now lost about half the weight that i want her too, her bum no longer looks like 2 hillocks and you can see her stomach muscles when she is working. I am of the opinion that is better that she loses the weight slowly through work and little regular feeds than to starve her. Now my boss wants his horses out as much as possible, we have loads of grass and there is no way that he would allow a grazing muzzle. All he ever says about her is that she is fat, it really p****s me off, i know she is and i am working on it FGS!

I also have an older TB who is on box rest after an op, he commented the other day that he is too fat also, he gets fat lad feed and chaff and small amounts of hay through the day, i cant feed him any less as he would be kicking the walls down which would do his poorly pin no good.

I think that was just a bit of a rant, dont even think it makes sense!!:D
 
I dipped my toe in the waters of showing and was very disheartened and I wouldn't bother again. I have a Connie who I mainly event but he does a bit of everything, he is scared of hunting but if not he would be able to spend the whole day out as he so fit he's almost too fit. We did a working hunter with him, we got the only clear round and we were placed 5th. The judge said he wasn't enough of a "show pony" when I asked afterwards what he meant by "show pony." Basically he said he had too much muscle in his legs and not enough condition, well I don't call him Fatty for nothing :S

These show ponies need more muscle, the strain on their legs is disgraceful and I will never do any showing again if this is how they expect the animals to look. They are obese.

A study of a show where they weighed 250 horses, 91% were obese.

And the RSPCA says this on obesity

'Obesity puts a strain on the animal's heart and lungs and can cause laminitis, a condition where foot bones rotate and push through the sole.'

Why is something not done?
 
I actualy did my dissertation on this subject.

I found out some interesting things - one that stood out to me was that if you ask someone their horses height they tend to know instantly what they think it is, if you ask the weight they have to check. Weight is needed for worming, feeding, vaccinations, yet people rarely have any idea what the weight might be.

Also a lot of people will read a feed packet and think 'medium work, my pony does two lessons and a hack every week - thats medium work' it isn't, it is light or maintenance. Hard work in the nutritional sense pretty much only applies to competing eventers, racehorses or endurance horses during the relavant seasons. Most show ponies however regularly schooled, are maintenance or light work.

I was shocked at myself when I went to ireland and worked a show jumper yard out there for a couple of months. I have always been very anti-fat ponies, I think it is cruel. When I first got to the yard I caught myself thinking that the horses looked a bit thin. Then I looked again and thought no they really aren't. You could see the muscles and they were shiny, lean and fit. It is kinda worrying really.
 
Lillith you have so hit the nail on the head. Most equines in this country live very cushy lives, not much in the way of work and food aplenty.

The question still remains though - when are judges going to start penalising overweight animals?

Do we need to lobby all the individual breed societies and showing panels, or do we lobby WHWelfare and ask them to attend shows?

Or do we think sod it?
 
At some endurance rides this year (such as Golden Horseshoe), there was a weighbridge (for horses). They were weighed (if owners wanted to) before & after ride to see how much they had lost. They were also fat scored. Now I'm not talking hard fit top endurance horses here, but those doing the pleasure ride (20 miles over Exmoor), which are often family horses who want a ride. It would be interesting to compare the fat scores of theses 'average family horses' who are fit enough to do a steady 20 miles compared to 'working hunters' who in theory are meant to be suitable to spend a whole day hunting. GHS weighing done by Dodson & Horrell, anyone know who fat scored the show ponies? See if we can get a comparison.
 
Have found a picture of Wembley pony of the year 1969

1969ponyoftheyear.jpg


No fat there then.................
 
Any horse that can complete 25 miles in the time parameters (these vary according to horse/rider grade, novice time slower than advanced time) & not have any heart rate penalties after has excellent underlying heart rate. Some horses have naturally lower heart rates, but these tend to be smaller lightweight athletic animals (such as many arabs though not exclusively before someone has a go), unlike your tall strong chap. This would therefore indicate he has a good level of fitness, & that speed/distance were easily within his capabilities. If he has a natrual talent for endurance, try increasing the distance & moving eventually to races. You'd be surprised where you find talent. Margaret Montgomerie (sadly now passed on) had brilliant success in 100 mile races on her hunter/cob type, Tarquin.
 
My vet, who doesn't say much, but what he does say is to the point, said "choose between the health of your pony (Connie) and success in the show ring".

Nuff said!!
 
I show M&M's and have a super smart new forest. She has slimed down alot this year with her loaners. When I had her she was round but also very muscley. She won a lot at affiliated and un-aff level and was a real favourite with judges.

Now she is very slim and in the show ring this year has been placed last!!!! One judge said she needs to be a lot bigger and another said a M&M shouldn't look slim.
 
ThoroughbredStar said:
I show M&M's and have a super smart new forest. She has slimed down alot this year with her loaners. When I had her she was round but also very muscley. She won a lot at affiliated and un-aff level and was a real favourite with judges.

Now she is very slim and in the show ring this year has been placed last!!!! One judge said she needs to be a lot bigger and another said a M&M shouldn't look slim.
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Well we rest the case here.

Maybe we should send all these comments to the relevant societies?
 
Unfortunately I dont think wee will be able to reduce the weight of our equines when so many of them are kept on full livery where the YO/YM seems to like them fat.
Im having a rough time of it at the moment as the morbidly obese pony on the yard where I work has been proclaimed to be "looking much better" (after I have stripped 5kg off her massive bulk) and has been returned to her previous diet and rugging.
I feel sick being surrounded by over weight, over rugged and under worked horses, especially when I am looked down on for keeping my girls out and minimally rugged/fed to keep their weight down.
If I could afford to leave I would, but I cant, and it wouldnt help the horses if I did.
 
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Some of you asked why horse's tend be so 'overweight' in show ring?
1) If your horse is too long in the back, if it is carrying ALOT of weight will make it appear more compact and therefore look like it has better conformation. My freinds horse did really well showing despite its awful conformation and it was Obese to say the least! My freind now has it and events it so its a fit as a fiddle now.
2) You have 15.2hh, not quite a hunter?? Fatten it up and its a show cob. Freind of a freind of a freind has done this. My friend saw it a few years ago as WH pony, fit but not quite as flashy as some others so its now a cob.

In no way am I encourging this, I am just saying why. It REALLY annoys me! My horse was a Show hunter who I now event. He has excellent manners, movement etc and hunts regualry. I have had comments all year about how well he is looking, with plenty of topline (from schooling), yet is eventing. He carries no extra weight yet judges say he needs more weight on him. He is a hunter who HUNTS!!!! arrghhh!
http://johngracing.thirdlight.com/viewpicturepreview.tlx?z=1&albumid=280385&pictureid=13414050
 
dominobrown said:
Some of you asked why horse's tend be so 'overweight' in show ring?
1) If your horse is too long in the back, if it is carrying ALOT of weight will make it appear more compact and therefore look like it has better conformation. My freinds horse did really well showing despite its awful conformation and it was Obese to say the least! My freind now has it and events it so its a fit as a fiddle now.
2) You have 15.2hh, not quite a hunter?? Fatten it up and its a show cob. Freind of a freind of a freind has done this. My friend saw it a few years ago as WH pony, fit but not quite as flashy as some others so its now a cob.

/QUOTE]

I would ALWAYS prefer to buy something that is slightly underweight than overweight as any confo faults are there to be seen. I know why some people do it, but the question is, why do the judges then place an animal that is obese, and hiding confo faults?
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I do not do showing, I have no need to hear another persons opinion on my horse, so see this from a very 'innocent' perspective I suppose. Surely judges of the standard of class being talked about here can see past the blubber? If a horse is meant to be a working hunter, doesn't it need a ticket to prove it goes hunting? If not, then instigate this. It is meant to be a WORKING hunter. When I do watch these classes, they seem to go at showjumping pace (ie they set the horse up & pop the fence like a showjumper), & the fences are often a mix of brown poles. Portable fences for xc, such as brushes, styles, gates, are readily available these days, so why not use these? They are much more true to life in terms of obstacles encountered. They should be solid fences, not many knockdown poles on a hunt. Local shows probably can't afford them, but county level plus should certainly keep a set. Also there should be a time limit for the round, set at hunting pace. If you are too slow time penalties should be awarded. A working hunter should be able to jump first & foremost, it is only amongst those who've proven their 'hunting ability' over fences that in then should be a beauty contest. If they can't jump, they shouldn't be considered.

Showing should bring in a fat score test, like the height certificate. A representative should be present at each major show & the horse should be fat scored when it is stripped. Optimum weight is the aim, & any overweight (ie those with higher than 'normal' scores) should be awarded penalities sufficiently big to affect the final judging. In that way people will not want to present a fat horse as they will receive a penalty as big as the fault they were trying to hide. In the event of a tie for a place, the fat horse should always be placed below the fit horse.
 
That's what you'd call a perfect world Pip; sadly it's not so it just won't happen.
I agree about WH certificates too, point to pointers have to have them, why not WH too and don't tell me they're too valuable, that's tosh.
 
I agree about the hunting certificates.
All hunters should have hunted- talk to some of the older judges will tell you this.
Broodmares should but obviously youngstock can't but all show hunters *should* of hunted. There is a judge near me who asks this, and if the horse hasn't hunted, they will quite often get dropped.
 
I dont get the desire to see them soooo well covered. I mean, it is not like we are going to eat them or use the fat for anything! So why have them fat? Serves no purpose!

I have a cob, and I like him to be sleek and fit. I had him once with what I would say was a good covering when he was not worked too much and I was told that was still too thin!
 
My gorgeous cob mare is a hefty girl - fit and fast. She can hunt all day and then hack home with a spring in her step. She's an all rounder, dressage, SJ and hunter trials moving onto hunting through the winter. Everyone kept telling me I should try the show ring so off we trundled to a cob class.

.. to be told she was wonderful, perfect, amazing conformation, well mannered, incredible movement, responsive etc etc etc ... AND MAYBE IF I COULD GET SOME WEIGHT ON HER WE'D DO WELL IN THE SHOW RING. We were not placed even though imo all six horses in the placings looked semi-lame and like their legs would not be able to support their weight. In comparison, my mare is 13 years old, clean limbed, sound, energetic and athletic. First and last time for us!
 
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