Hunt in France 2010 with FREEDOM

Judgemental said:
Now back to the front; namely hunting in France, is carried on without let or hindrance by any government interference or Gestapo like organisations.

The French are members of the EU and are governed by the same laws that are disseminated to us by Brussels.
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You are a long way behind the times. The UK hunting ban has already been challenged (unsuccessfully) in the European Court! The EU Court held that an individual member country's Parliament is justified in acting on subjective judgments about the morality of an activity in that country.
 
JanetGeorge said:
You are a long way behind the times. The UK hunting ban has already been challenged (unsuccessfully) in the European Court! The EU Court held that an individual member country's Parliament is justified in acting on subjective judgments about the morality of an activity in that country.
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An interesting point. I wonder where the line is, between perceived morality, and human rights.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
with respect, I don't agree. That awful buffoon, Prescot was surrounded by BGs and police. He didn't have to react as he did. Had that been you, or me, we'd have ended up in Court, and been charged with assault. He wasn't defending himself, the attack was over.
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Of COURSE Prescott acted wrongfully - and if the case had come to court he MIGHT have been found guilty of assault. But so would the hunt supporter - who threw the first egg/punch! Prescott's defence would have been that he acted without thinking in response to an 'unprovoked' attack - in self defence!

There's a very good (and I think very accurate) description of the incident and Labour's reaction to it - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-truth-about-prescott-and-that-punch-508156.html

And - for what it's worth - there WAS an element of 'set-up' in the incident - but the Countryside Alliance was NOT involved!
 
Alec Swan said:
An interesting point. I wonder where the line is, between perceived morality, and human rights.
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The case was based on the human rights argument.

The Strasbourg court ruled unanimously that every one of the complaints was inadmissible. The judges said the ban did not affect the right to private and family life because hunting was essentially a public activity, and it did not restrict the plaintiff's right to assemble with other huntsmen.

Freedom of association was unaffected because people remained free to associate with other hunters in many alternative activities, such as drag or trail hunting, without the use of "live quarry".

The judges said that "not every activity a person might seek to engage in together with others was protected" by the convention on human rights.

"The ban had been designed to eliminate the hunting and killing of animals for sport in a manner causing suffering and being morally objectionable," they concluded.

They said it had been introduced "after extensive debate by the democratically elected representatives of the State on the social and ethical issues raised by that type of hunting".
 
Just a point but The European Court of Justice is based in Luxembourg and the European Court of Human Rights is based in Strasbourg, France.

Poor old Brussels always gets battered but they don't make all the decisions there!

Hunting is very popular here too (wild boar, deer, rabbits) but it's mainly on foot and in my experience, they are not at all "horse-friendly".
 
Simsar said:
Pads stunning photo has AS seen it????
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Nope - only you! I am afriad I don't do dresing up all that well! I prefer one a friend of mine took of me in my cowboy hat. He caught me as I was running through a field laughing my head off. Everyone loves that one. Will try and dig it out for you!

Looks as though the conversation may have gotten interesting so will be back after checking the updates!
 
I can honestly say that I can see only one way to change and get the repeal and that is by gaining public support. We should all be embarking on a gentle persuasive arguement through out schools, colleges, have open days etc and keep plugging at it. If we throw our arms in the air and create hoo ha we will never gain the respect required to complete the goal.

If we have invested as much money and time as LACS in education then I can almost guarentee that it wouldn't have happened. Showing the hounds at country events is fantastic but we need to become more main stream and get a greater coverage. Talk to people about it and educate people about it, keep calm and carry on! We need to get into the towns and cities and all those areas that we would normally avoid. We need to bring the countryside to people who have never seen nor experianced it. Maps of the underground are up in London for visitors who don't know their way we need to apply the same principles to our ways of life. Get children onto farms, into kennels, grooming a shetland pony etc. It is so so very important.
 
Janet,

Thanks for the Independent report. I read it with interest, and a degree of amusement, particularly the head line suggestion for Maxwell. Very funny!!

I have no problems with commoners being offered a peerage. None what so ever. I'm tempted to say the commoner the better, but Jesus, there are limits, surely!! I've got a collie dog who'd have supported Blair, were he asked too. Whether he'd have deserved a peerage is another matter!

Alec.
 
Paddydou said:
I can honestly say that I can see only one way to change and get the repeal and that is by gaining public support. We should all be embarking on a gentle persuasive arguement through out schools, colleges, have open days etc and keep plugging at it. If we throw our arms in the air and create hoo ha we will never gain the respect required to complete the goal.

If we have invested as much money and time as LACS in education then I can almost guarentee that it wouldn't have happened. Showing the hounds at country events is fantastic but we need to become more main stream and get a greater coverage. Talk to people about it and educate people about it, keep calm and carry on! We need to get into the towns and cities and all those areas that we would normally avoid. We need to bring the countryside to people who have never seen nor experianced it. Maps of the underground are up in London for visitors who don't know their way we need to apply the same principles to our ways of life. Get children onto farms, into kennels, grooming a shetland pony etc. It is so so very important.
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Blimey, I've found an ally!! You've got it in one, Padds.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Blimey, I've found an ally!! You've got it in one, Padds.

Alec.
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Each year I do pony rides for a Starlight fun day at a local airfield. The children (all suffering life limiting conditions) are invited from all over the South of England and we all give what we have, for a day, for them to have fun and be kids not patients. Airplane rides, motorbikes of all shapes and sizes, jugglers, face paints you name it if we can get it into the space we do. Its fantastic.

90% of the inner city kids have never seen a horse in "real life", those that have its been a police horse... When they get on they are normally terrified, exhilerated, wanting to do more learn more, see more. They love the smell, feel, and sensations they get from riding and being with horses. It also helps that my great friend and I act like complete plonkers and pretend that we are national hunt jockeys, huntsmen, knights of the round table, dresage riders, show jumpers, cowboys anything and everything to help show them the enormous diversity there is within the equestrian world and to feed their curiosity.

How can we possibly expect people who have no concept of our way of life to understand and support us? There is no point in trying to beat it into someone they will only resist and have a bad impression which will then be spread via word of mouth to others and fast!

There will be no quick fix but a long and steady plug. I can see no other way that woudl guarentee the level of sucess we require. It was banned on the hear say of "public out cry" so lets use that very same weapon and concept and use it to our own advantage as well as the advantage of those who would greatly enjoy for us to share what we have with them.

That and shoot everyone you know who voted Labour... ;)
 
Can you imagine the joy on kids faces if their school were flooded with hounds? They would love it and having a go at blowing a horn, shooting a gun at a target, heck even meeting terriers and hawks. Meeting people who are pro but don't hunt people who do hunt people who work in the hunts hearing the tall tales and stories we all share in the pub or at meals, getting to fuss and lead a pony around, learning to pick up its feet etc...

They could meet farmers and see a tractor and a combine. Heck I bet most of them wouldn't even know how to bake an apple pie from scratch. Meet a sheep see a sheep dog work, meet a cow, chickens etc.

They would have an absolute ball! Why are we not doing this? Why are we all not volunteering just one day and what we have to promote our way of life?
 
Paddydou said:
Can you imagine the joy on kids faces if their school were flooded with hounds? They would love it and having a go at blowing a horn, shooting a gun at a target, heck even meeting terriers and hawks. Meeting people who are pro but don't hunt people who do hunt people who work in the hunts hearing the tall tales and stories we all share in the pub or at meals, getting to fuss and lead a pony around, learning to pick up its feet etc...

They could meet farmers and see a tractor and a combine. Heck I bet most of them wouldn't even know how to bake an apple pie from scratch. Meet a sheep see a sheep dog work, meet a cow, chickens etc.

They would have an absolute ball! Why are we not doing this? Why are we all not volunteering just one day and what we have to promote our way of life?
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Actually, i wouldn't be too happy about my 6year old being used as part of a propaganda battle. Education in conservation and wildlife, yes, but to further anyone's political agenda. NO.
Opens the floodgates to everyone else with a mission. Education is for the benefit of the children, not as a means of scoring points.
 
horserider said:
Actually, i wouldn't be too happy about my 6year old being used as part of a propaganda battle. Education in conservation and wildlife, yes, but to further anyone's political agenda. NO.
Opens the floodgates to everyone else with a mission. Education is for the benefit of the children, not as a means of scoring points.
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This is not about propoganda or scoring points its about informed choice. How many 6 year olds have actually had the chance to see hounds?

Are you aware that LACS promote and "educate" within schools, colleges and universities already? They have many "training" videos showing some really vile footage that I am not terribly sure is factual. I am not suggesting that we go recruiting but give people the chance to make an informed choice. If they still want to be anti after getting a better idea of what goes on and why then thats ok but the biggest difference is that it would be an informed choice rather than a choice made because someone screamed louder than the other.

I am sure that the garter tops could wait until they reach 6th form (or whatever its called these days) at the least!!!
 
I have no problem with this being offered outside school, but school is not for various groups with vested interest to use children for their own agenda. Who else wants to have a slot in the timetable ? Misunderstood trainspotters united ?
 
horserider said:
I have no problem with this being offered outside school, but school is not for various groups with vested interest to use children for their own agenda. Who else wants to have a slot in the timetable ? Misunderstood trainspotters united ?
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LACS have been doing this for years and the things they show even youngsters are horrific... Not so much these days but in the run up to the ban... Propoganda at its best.

If you didn't know be warned...

So you don't think its a good idea to show children a different way of life and how it all neatly slots together and how country sports and professions all work together to produce food, clothing, furniture, bricks for houses etc? Or is it just the hunt aspect that you are not keen on?
 
Paddydou said:
LACS have been doing this for years and the things they show even youngsters are horrific... Not so much these days but in the run up to the ban... Propoganda at its best.

If you didn't know be warned...

So you don't think its a good idea to show children a different way of life and how it all neatly slots together and how country sports and professions all work together to produce food, clothing, furniture, bricks for houses etc? Or is it just the hunt aspect that you are not keen on?
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Just re read that and it sounds argumentative which is not the intention just curious to know your ideas and thoughs as a parent.
 
Paddydou said:
LACS have been doing this for years and the things they show even youngsters are horrific... Not so much these days but in the run up to the ban... Propoganda at its best.

If you didn't know be warned...

So you don't think its a good idea to show children a different way of life and how it all neatly slots together and how country sports and professions all work together to produce food, clothing, furniture, bricks for houses etc? Or is it just the hunt aspect that you are not keen on?
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Thats why I choose schools for my children that concentrate primarily on educating them.
I am happy for them to be educated in social history and aspects of modern day living, but not from groups that have an agenda.
Last week one of the dads brought his ferrets into school by invitation. He enjoyed it and so did the children. Another dad brought a lamb in last spring.Another some spiders. No agenda. Just childrens parents showing the little one's something to broaden their knowledge. No one was trying to influence the children, no group with a axe to grind.
I object to any attempts to politicise young minds, before they have the maturity to see the whole picture. Schools are there to teach children to read and write. If they can get that right , then they can fanny about and have a day a week for anyone who wants a shot at them.
 
horserider said:
Actually, i wouldn't be too happy about my 6year old being used as part of a propaganda battle. Education in conservation and wildlife, yes, but to further anyone's political agenda. NO.
Opens the floodgates to everyone else with a mission. Education is for the benefit of the children, not as a means of scoring points.
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It isn't a matter of scoring points, or any form of indoctrination (though for the LACS, it most certainly is), but more a case of offering the facts of a rural existence to children, as many on this forum learnt, and then allowing them to reach a decision for themselves.

I wouldn't suggest, for one moment, that a child of 6 should be taken into an abattoir, and witness a slaughter house in full swing. As a very small child, probably from the age of 6, I watched lambs, puppies, calves and foals being born. I also witnessed how the mothers of these animals got themselves pregnant too! Strangely, at no point, that I can remember, did I link that to humans. That came much later!

To be quite truthful with you, I hadn't considered the aspect of a parent considering that their child may be considered as a pawn, and if that's how you feel, then I for one, understand.

It will be for every caring parent to make the decision on behalf of their child.

Alec.

Ets, I've just read your last post, and whilst i don't understand your last sentence, I would point out that at some stage the learning process for children needs to be a little more than the 3 Rs. The few good teachers who I had, were more generally, outside the class room!! a.
 
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Alec Swan said:
Ets, I've just read your last post, and whilst i don't understand your last sentence, I would point out that at some stage the learning process for children needs to be a little more than the 3 Rs. The few good teachers who I had, were more generally, outside the class room!! a.
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I agree with you, last sentence was aimed more at the PC Education Dept, not quite fair for the purpose of this topic, but do get fed up with the basics being ignored, but thats OT.
 
much as I am loathe to disturb JM (and rouse the currently apparently sleeping beast) I would just like to point out that the critical difference between the French and English attitude to hunting was a revolution (now some time ago!)

The French people believe that the right to hunt is something that was won for the populace at the time of the Revolution, as it had previously been a royal perogative.

In England, the people's perception of hunting has always been that it is a sport of the upper or ruling classes, bringing with that perception, a natural resentment and a feeling of exclusion, which JM, your attitude only serves to promulgate.
 
spacefaer said:
much as I am loathe to disturb JM (and rouse the currently apparently sleeping beast) I would just like to point out that the critical difference between the French and English attitude to hunting was a revolution (now some time ago!)

The French people believe that the right to hunt is something that was won for the populace at the time of the Revolution, as it had previously been a royal perogative.

In England, the people's perception of hunting has always been that it is a sport of the upper or ruling classes, bringing with that perception, a natural resentment and a feeling of exclusion, which JM, your attitude only serves to promulgate.
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Quite agree,hunting needs more pro hunting propaganda,and being snobby and exclusive will only turn possible supporters away.
It used to be quite acceptable,and probably still is in Eire,to grab any old horse and tag along if you heard hounds nearby.
Quite honestly after all the snotty crap JM has bored us with of late I even find myself rather more disinterested than usual.I can well remember John Funnell turning up halfway through a Tickham day on a new three year old,dressed in fancy western fringed chaps and no hat..just to joly around the woods as part of its education.He was warmly welcomed.

Getting people enthusiastic in the first place is far more important right now than all the etiquette stuff;that bit can be worked on as the newcomers realise they have caught the bug.We should just be very pleased and welcoming to anyone trying out a new venture.
Old trouts still firmly entrenched in the 1950`s or before are not assisting our cause at all.
 
EAST KENT said:
Quite agree,hunting needs more pro hunting propaganda,and being snobby and exclusive will only turn possible supporters away.
It used to be quite acceptable,and probably still is in Eire,to grab any old horse and tag along if you heard hounds nearby.
Quite honestly after all the snotty crap JM has bored us with of late I even find myself rather more disinterested than usual.I can well remember John Funnell turning up halfway through a Tickham day on a new three year old,dressed in fancy western fringed chaps and no hat..just to joly around the woods as part of its education.He was warmly welcomed.

Getting people enthusiastic in the first place is far more important right now than all the etiquette stuff;that bit can be worked on as the newcomers realise they have caught the bug.We should just be very pleased and welcoming to anyone trying out a new venture.
Old trouts still firmly entrenched in the 1950`s or before are not assisting our cause at all.
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Too right.
Personally, my feelings are that if you want to take part in the sport, turn up on a fit horse and get out there. If you want to play dress up, stay on the lawn and chat. Perhaps have a best turned out competition, while the others are getting muddy and sweaty.
Ditch the snobbery and get the sport into the 21st century.
 
horserider said:
Too right.
Personally, my feelings are that if you want to take part in the sport, turn up on a fit horse and get out there. If you want to play dress up, stay on the lawn and chat. Perhaps have a best turned out competition, while the others are getting muddy and sweaty.
Ditch the snobbery and get the sport into the 21st century.
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Get them out there to catch the bug,neat and tidy will do ..a hacking jacket and synthetic boots (pass the smelling salts!) is fine for the first days;once they are smitten..then it is time to invest in more correct gear.
Please can we stop frightening people off?

My first day ,a hundred or so years ago, as a just eight year old, was on a 21 year old unclipped Welsh TYPE pony and dressed in a lent hacking jacket a yellow polo neck jumper and (VERY) polished lace up brown shoes. BUT the bug was truly caught.I think the "cap" was a shilling!!
 
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It's funny that JM disappears when threads such as these come on,we had all types out yesterday at our opening meet and every year we have a great deal more followers than the year before, which is the main thing. Bless them all i say!
 
rosiefronfelen said:
It's funny that JM disappears when threads such as these come on,we had all types out yesterday at our opening meet and every year we have a great deal more followers than the year before, which is the main thing. Bless them all i say!
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I suppose, Rosie, that it's a bit like the thinking of the established Church. It doesn't matter how you get them in, just do it!!

A selection of excellent posts. Well said, everyone!

Alec.
 
It really is a case of "bums on seats" isn't it (or in this case saddles and on foot etc).

I feel that the main problem with our "hunting issue" is the barage of very poor press that it has had and the few who are a bit "gung ho" with it all. What right minded person really wants to be "bloodied"? Who would really want their child to have that done to them? Yes it is a bit archaic and I haven't heard of any such things in recent years but those memories will stick with people either as very positive and part of a ritual or as very negative and barbaric...

Because of all the negativity that has been spread much of the positive has been forgotten and left to go by the wayside. Not only do we all need to get with the 21st centurary (getting with the 20th first may be useful) but we should also be careful that we maintain as much of the tradition as possible. After all Hunting is what it is and we should treasure it as such.

There is no point in having a argument with people who are convinced that the upper classes hunted foxes to extinction (in the UK) 100 years ago and then had to import them. I would love to know the basis in fact of this comment which is often thrown at me by staunch antis but have been unable to find anything for or against so can never make any comment. It would be all very good and well to say that didn't happen but somewhere they have seen literature that states it as fact (probably more LACS propoganda pulling on the heart strings again). This is just one of many "facts" thrown at me during debate on the subject. So where has it come from?? "Education" - thats where.

You have to give it to them. LACS has been very proactive in pushing their cause and alienating the vast majority of city slickers towards their rural friends. Divide and rule. The only way we are going to gain any ground is to slowly plug at it, remain dignified and accept that some will never agree with us and educate those who know nothing but the filth spewed forth by those against us. Every arguement always has 2 sides. Much as I am loath to admit it antis have every right to be anti the same way in that we have every right to hunt should we choose to. However we handed it to them on a plate. We let them do this to us so we are as much to blame as they are and we need to take responsibility for teh fact that we didn't do anything until it was too late. Yes those marches were too late. We shoudl have started informing people of the flip side of the argument a long long time ago!

Education and getting into areas that we ourselves are afraid of, the inner cities etc, will only help us to understand where others are coming from and help them to understand where we are coming from. This subject is often placed in the same category as seal clubbing which, I am sure you will all agree, really holds no bearing to what we do and really hunting can not be drawn in comparison.

There has to be a better way. There has to be but we as a group have to keep our cool, stop sulking because our dummy has been taken away and start a reasoned plan of action. There is no quick fix.

I firmly believe in education, being open about what we do and getting on with it. Half the joy of hunting after all is the one that got away, marveling at the chase and how canny Charlie can be. I am sure that each and every person reading this who has watched a hunt has seen Charlie cross his tracks and confuse the hounds. I bet every one of you said "look at the clever fox (or insert apropriate swear word here)!" when you saw him do it. I have yet to meet anyone who enjoys the "kill" - that is the point where hunting becomes a job rather than a sport. It makes me really cross when people try to put hunting into a neat box because its not just sport, its not just a job, its not just a hobby and yet it is all those things and so much more. I bet you LACS has not pointed out that the vast majority of hunting folk revere Charlie and his antics in many ways - a far cry from hating animals and wanting to destroy them all I am sure you will agree! The love that Hunting folk have for their surroundings and everything that lives in it is utterly unique. It is a passion. So much of this has been missed and forgotten in the fight. We need to start remembering why we do what we do, then start promoting it rather than just stamping our feet and screaming "WE ARE RIGHT WE ARE RIGHT" all the time.

I could go on forever but I shall stop before everyone starts stoning me!
 
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