Alec Swan
...
Word perfect, Paddydou, and Id be interested to hear a counter argument, should there be one.
Alec.
Alec.
Hunt in France 2010 with FREEDOM
- Thread starter Judgemental
- Start date
Millyard Rejects
Well-Known Member
Im absolutely disgusted!!! a collie dog supporting blair!!!
My eldest collie-McCoy was brought up around sheep, hounds,horses and has behaved impeccibly throughout his life.
He went to all the game fairs throughout UK and even had a few spins round Bramham, Badminton and Burghley in his younger days.
Making him a true 4star dog! He certainly didnt vote for Blair and as such is happy to be in Ireland the place of his birth where he is allowed to follow the scent and give charlie a run for his money. However he has no intention of moving to France for the hunting-he said something about garden pests and extra worming tablets??
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Erm.. that'll be me then. Firstly, I'd take issue with Paddydou's inference that the vast majority of city slickers are anti towards their rural friends. Many country born and bred people do not support hunting, some may have been inconvenienced or alienated by first hand experience when encountering the hunt. Some of those city slickers are hunt supporters and may also hunt. Thats what horses on hunting livery are for. I am friends with a few of them who never see or ride their horses in summer, and indeed,a couple who, quite literally only see their horses being loaded onto the box, plaited and tacked up. The image of knowledge country folk supporting the traditions of the countryside are not entirely correct.
Secondly, this preserving tradition is. for me, what alienates many desenters. The image of snobbery and previledge is deliberately cultivated by the hunting faternity. Decide what you want. Is hunting primarily a sport or a tradition with no relevance to the countryside today ? Farmers have moved on, embracing change. Ploughs and heavy horses are a hobby. Equestrianism has moved on. Clothing is about functionality and safety. New textiles have been designed to keep us warm and dry. Modern riders wear hi Viz to be seen and as courtesy to road users, who they hope will slow down for them.
Because riding is seen as elitist by some of the public, many of us try to dispell this image. Dressing up in clothes that are unsuitable for the sport in the 21 st century is vanity.
Do eventers and endurance riders not wear functional kit ? Is visability not a priority for riding out in the country these days ? Should horseowners be prevented from hunting because paying for livery and feed is more essential than a woollen hunting jacket and the rest of the kit ?
Do you want people to hunt or play dress up ? Kindly permitting new comers not to adhere to the correct attire for the first few outings is not enough. If I could hunt regularly without expectation to 'posh up' and bring my unplaited horse ( standing on somefreezing winter morning pulling my horses mane into a series of tight plaits leaves me cold.) - then I'd be there twice a week instead of once in a very blue moon.
Paddydou
Well-Known Member
Ah horserider you are correct in so many ways however one is always forced to generalise when trying to make a point and there will as ever be many exceptions to the rule!
I have just met so very many people who have no clue what it is about. I have met people who claim to be country folk who have no clue how to tell the difference between grass and crop (when it is fully grown I hasten to add!). All very scary!
I agree with many of the comments you make however I do think that there also needs to be a standard. You don't go to a dressage test in muddy brushing boots nor would you go show jumping without your jacket! The same applies to hunting. Keep it as an event and mark the day as special by dressing up for it a bit. This could change slightly to accommodate other tastes in clothing but I do believe that it is important to maintain that distinction between going for a hack and going hunting for the day. There are a number of ways of doing this. Hunt colours for example, keep them but have a smart modern jacket instead of hacking jacket. It would be a shame to go this way but thats just me and my love of history and trying to protect anything that is a tradition! Please bear in mind that I want to rip out my central heating and go back to a Rayburn or Aga as I find them far more efficient! I am of the mind that plaiting for open meets and lawn meets should remain but plaiting for the rest would serve no purpose and a neatly pulled/ groomed mane would suffice. I prepare to be shot down by those who I know would disagree and I see their points!
You are absolutely right about alienation of folk. It really is a crying shame and I am sure that others as well as I would welcome fresh ideas and fresh views. I also agree that feeding and bedding your horse is far more important than rider attire! Time and money are things that are both in very short supply these days. Horses in general, I agree, are still seen as elitist. It is still assumed that I am rolling in cash because I own my own but if you count 3 jobs and being frugal into that... I guess it is just the perception that people have.
I have just met so very many people who have no clue what it is about. I have met people who claim to be country folk who have no clue how to tell the difference between grass and crop (when it is fully grown I hasten to add!). All very scary!
I agree with many of the comments you make however I do think that there also needs to be a standard. You don't go to a dressage test in muddy brushing boots nor would you go show jumping without your jacket! The same applies to hunting. Keep it as an event and mark the day as special by dressing up for it a bit. This could change slightly to accommodate other tastes in clothing but I do believe that it is important to maintain that distinction between going for a hack and going hunting for the day. There are a number of ways of doing this. Hunt colours for example, keep them but have a smart modern jacket instead of hacking jacket. It would be a shame to go this way but thats just me and my love of history and trying to protect anything that is a tradition! Please bear in mind that I want to rip out my central heating and go back to a Rayburn or Aga as I find them far more efficient! I am of the mind that plaiting for open meets and lawn meets should remain but plaiting for the rest would serve no purpose and a neatly pulled/ groomed mane would suffice. I prepare to be shot down by those who I know would disagree and I see their points!
You are absolutely right about alienation of folk. It really is a crying shame and I am sure that others as well as I would welcome fresh ideas and fresh views. I also agree that feeding and bedding your horse is far more important than rider attire! Time and money are things that are both in very short supply these days. Horses in general, I agree, are still seen as elitist. It is still assumed that I am rolling in cash because I own my own but if you count 3 jobs and being frugal into that... I guess it is just the perception that people have.
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Paddydou, I agree with you on every point, just about. Most of my hunting friends are sane, down to earth folk , like yourself, who are great ambassadors for hunting.
I am a traditionalist too, but the practical side of my nature overides the need for making life hard for oneself. Keep the ceremony and dress standard for open and lawn meets and compromise by having days for those of us who avoid like the plague, activities like showing, where preparation is mind numbingly dull. I just want to ride, on heathy, groomed horses and couldn't give a toss about the correctness of the type of boots or the colour of the jacket I'm wearing.
I am a traditionalist too, but the practical side of my nature overides the need for making life hard for oneself. Keep the ceremony and dress standard for open and lawn meets and compromise by having days for those of us who avoid like the plague, activities like showing, where preparation is mind numbingly dull. I just want to ride, on heathy, groomed horses and couldn't give a toss about the correctness of the type of boots or the colour of the jacket I'm wearing.
Paddydou
Well-Known Member
Ah see I do... I would hate to let my old boy down...
Mind you he hates plaits and just wants to get going at the biggest hedges and gates he can find be it out hunting, on a hack, show jumping (bit dull for him as he cant gallop) or his most favourite thing going cross country... He will even make up obsticals to jump such as a photographers car, a trailer, the odd sheep... So you see it can get a bit hairy at times and I want as much to grab onto as I can! We tend to get into a bit of trouble when we go out together as we are always looking for the next adventure hence why I don't ride much at all these days - we just have fun remembering instead!
Its seems we are singing the same song but my version is from memory which is a touch rose tinted I will admit!
Mind you he hates plaits and just wants to get going at the biggest hedges and gates he can find be it out hunting, on a hack, show jumping (bit dull for him as he cant gallop) or his most favourite thing going cross country... He will even make up obsticals to jump such as a photographers car, a trailer, the odd sheep... So you see it can get a bit hairy at times and I want as much to grab onto as I can! We tend to get into a bit of trouble when we go out together as we are always looking for the next adventure hence why I don't ride much at all these days - we just have fun remembering instead!
Its seems we are singing the same song but my version is from memory which is a touch rose tinted I will admit!
Millyard Rejects
Well-Known Member
I wasnt going to get involved but alas....here i am!
Having been a groom for an event rider and for 2 hunts when I lived in Uk I do think a dress code is required and I think people should make the effort of turning out their horses correctly.
Please feel free to shoot me down but my reasons are-
If everyone in the field wears the same type of jacket,same shade etc it means there is none of the nonsense of people turning up in horrendous coloured attire that some dodgy celebrity endorses and the ensuing competion between people of who spent the most money on their disgusting pink/baby blue jacket! Remember school uniforms? and days where we went uniform free and the worry we might not be trendy??
Most riders wear backprotectors under their hunting jackets..although i know several who claim they dont? and stocks tied correctly are used on the hunting field as in horse trials.
I think it would be better if hunts were to adopt the approach of some of the racing yards-and all wear a waterproof type jacket?
Ive found the yards who turn out their horses in the correct manner-plaited, tails trimmed etc. also have one thing in common-well behaved horses? if people "fanny" around plaiting and trimming for the hunting season then chances are horses are fit for their job and better schooled. If they worry about the little things then chances are the bigger jobs are done correctly too.Meaning horses behave when asked to stand and wait, and dont kick hounds etc.
ok...il get off my soapbox now and go feed the horses...
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
He sounds like a fun boy - bit too fun for me !
Alec Swan
...
h_r,
I fail to see your argument with P_d's post. The two run, more or less parallel!! A good post, none the less.
Alec.
I fail to see your argument with P_d's post. The two run, more or less parallel!! A good post, none the less.
Alec.
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
A few tweaks Alec, call me contrary, I love debate with open minded people.
Judgemental
Well-Known Member
Alec I have lost interest - nothing is going to change legally before 2012 and even then, I have my doubts.
John Holliday's piece in the H & H of 28 October, page 21 reflects my current and future views, in particular where he says and I quote from his penultimate paragraph, "anybody who thinks the status quo is better than repeal is an idiot".
rosie fronfelen
Well-Known Member
thats a fine thing,leaving people in the lurch who believed in you and listened to you-( not including me i hasten to add) you are unbelieveable, literally, a person not to be trusted or listened to!!
Judgemental
Well-Known Member
Rosie, my view is a direct refelection of the announcement, since this thread was started, that nothing legally will be attempted to be resolved prior to 2012.
Tell me what I should now be advocating. If you want honesty, I am completely lost as to what is the right line to follow.
I am a follower (reader of H &H) of John Holliday, who writes in H & H and is clearly the one chosen by the Editor to reflect views. I share John's views, what more do you want in terms of transparency?
Furthermore, I was invited by Alec to contribute as a matter of courtesy.
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rosie fronfelen
Well-Known Member
i can read posts actually, but for someone who has always had plenty to say i find it strange that you "have lost interest"! or, is it for some other reason? remember, we know nothing about you!!!So, what and where are you doing til 2012?
EAST KENT
Well-Known Member
Oh b......r,just when it looked safe to go in the water.......
Judgemental
Well-Known Member
Well there's an question. Allow me to gaze into my Crystal Ball.
Pottering after hounds hither and thither perhaps with some visiting thrown in for good measure. But by the sound of things I will not be welcome in the Welsh Hills?
Pottering around on the horses.
For the avoidance of doubt, the "lost interest" refers to arguing the toss on this thread and elsewhere.
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Simsar
Well-Known Member
Going back to the original post (kind of). If they were to try and ban hunting in France, do we think they would block the ports again as they seem to do for most things?
Why are we as British not more inclined to fight for what we believe in, perhaps we should follow our foreign friends lead!?
Why are we as British not more inclined to fight for what we believe in, perhaps we should follow our foreign friends lead!?
rosie fronfelen
Well-Known Member
you are most welcome here to hunt as long as we know who you are, thats not too much to ask surely? As a matter of interest, how many horses do you have and i assume you have grooms?
Paddydou
Well-Known Member
Because we all drink tea then hope the nasty little anoyance will go away... Its the British way.
If there is one thing I admire about the French its their balls. They really do know how to throw a good protest don't they. We just plod along with a few placards and the odd larger lout. Nope - got to hand it to the French for their passionate demo's. They do them very well.
EAST KENT
Well-Known Member
Oh come off it Rosie..we`ll never get the truth on that,reckon my theory is probably very near it!
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
Mmm - with a notable handful of exceptions they didn't do so well against the Nazis!
I think the British ARE prepared to fight - it's their good manners and readiness to listen to their leaders that lets them down! (I can say that because I'm not British!
)Think back to the Countryside Rally of 1997 and the first BIG March (the March, March!) of 1998! Blair and his Cabinet were bricking it after that - the dear old BFSS had cast aside its pipe and slippers and rallied the troops - and the troops responded amazingly! If we'd KEPT that momentum - and kept Labour SCARED of us - the ban would not have happened!
But what did we do?? We merged the BFSS with the totally pointless (and broke) Countryside Movement and the equally irrelevent Countryside Business Group to form the 'Countryside Alliance' - pi**ing off the NFU, CLA, and a plethora of other rural organisations which were our natural friends and allies in the process. We got a nice new cuddly image and a host of new (largely irrelevent) issues to 'fight' - and we LOOKED like hunting was not THAT important to us!
We got Labour friendly leaders and a wet and useless CE to replace RH-T - and adopted a softly/softly approach - let's be FRIENDS with Labour!! It was the stupidest idea ever - who on earth cuddles up to a piranha!
It was SO obviously a disaster from the start!
A couple of years later I was doing a debate with that RARE animal - an intelligent Labour MP (sadly, he's dead now!) He told me afterwards that Labour was no longer afraid of the hunting issue - as all they would have to do was to provide some extra funding for rural transport and rural services and the CA would 'rollover' on hunting!! And the majority of Labour MPs BELIEVED it!The ban on hunting did not happen because our supporters wouldn't 'fight' - it happened because of lousy leadership!
rosie fronfelen
Well-Known Member
Oh come off it Rosie..we`ll never get the truth on that,reckon my theory is probably very near it!
Isuppose you are right--as soon as i ask a question he goes under the bridge, IF he wants a days hunting then we are obliged to know who he is!
Paddydou
Well-Known Member
Those are times that will never be forgotten. The first and last times my father has ever been to London! Seeing him on the underground was a revelation I can tell you! Trying to convince a colour blind old man that we are on the right train and those ones are different ones was interesting I can tell you!
We were marching with a real mix of people and I remember the only trouble I saw being from the antis (about 20 that I saw on a bridge). I was so very proud to be a part of them.
Perhaps we should march again. The bit that struck me the most was the bit where we were all silent. Not one peep was heard but the marching feet. It was amazing. Truely remarkable.
Labour is full of fools. The only one I have ever had any respect for is Tony Benn.
Saucisson
Well-Known Member
Please don't go this way. I am not a big Thatcherite but I do believe that she really took the country forward by killing the power of the unions.
These big strikes do nothing more than put money in the pockets of the union leaders and cripple small businesses who are trying to make an honest living.
Personally, I think it's one of GB's biggest strengths that they don't fall foul to this mass manipulation. For me, it's what Sarko wants for France now because it's impossible for them to move forward without risking mass protests.
If you think it's a brave act of defiance then please try running a small business when the post workers/airport workers/council workers go on strike.
Paddydou
Well-Known Member
There are massive differences between Thatcher being forced to close down the mines (because once again Labour had gotten us all into trouble while they were in power... lets not forget that) and Labour buggering about with things that quite frankly need to be kept out of the house of commons... Its like banning conkers... can someone please tell me why there were debates held on that? ok they were small ones but what a waste of time that was...
I am a bit of a thatcherite but I also think that sometimes it would be much better for us to stick up for ourselves and not allow ourselves to be walked all over... pass me a cup of tea the blood pressure is rising!!
Saucisson
Well-Known Member
There are massive differences between Thatcher being forced to close down the mines (because once again Labour had gotten us all into trouble while they were in power... lets not forget that) and Labour buggering about with things that quite frankly need to be kept out of the house of commons... Its like banning conkers... can someone please tell me why there were debates held on that? ok they were small ones but what a waste of time that was...
I am a bit of a thatcherite but I also think that sometimes it would be much better for us to stick up for ourselves and not allow ourselves to be walked all over... pass me a cup of tea the blood pressure is rising!!
You aren't being walked over. I know it must feel like that but to me, the UK is one of the last bastions of freedom left in Europe. I realise that the hunting ban was a big blow for the rural comminity but unfortunatly, Labour said they were going to do it and they won.
Please don't have a revolt! A lot of people here in the continant love the UK for what it is......stoic and sensible. If the hunting ban is too be repealed, I am sure it will be done correctly, by the correct terms and in the correct manner.
Sorry, one of my few other posts on the hunting forum was to blast the horrible old ferts that I had the misfortune to work for in the past and I think you were very much a voice of reason which I do respect.
I am not against hunting myself, although I admit I'm not keen on cubbing. Please bear in mind that an awful lot of Europeans are strongly socialist ( and not "New Labour" socialists). GB is hanging in there and fighting for business and trade, please don't knock 'em down for this.
There are folks over here who won't even say "bonjour" because I'me riding a horse and am therefore bourgouisie. (I'm from flippin Grantham, Lincs
).Our UK politicians are fighting a very tough war here in Brussels, give them a chance.
rosie fronfelen
Well-Known Member
Excuse me, but tell me how farmers have moved on- bar having up to date machinery and tractors etc? Is there a new and modern way to keep foxes at bay, if so, please tell me about it?
Alec Swan
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Saucisson,
....stoic and sensible.... is what got us into this mess. To support that, consider the last, factual and excellent post from Mrs. George.
We've been led like sheep. Enough.
Alec.
....stoic and sensible.... is what got us into this mess. To support that, consider the last, factual and excellent post from Mrs. George.
We've been led like sheep. Enough.
Alec.
Simsar
Well-Known Member
Ooooo it's starting to sound a little like a revolution here!!!
Are people starting to realise that it will take a lot more people to storm the HOP to get our point across??
We have been on every march going and it hasn't made a difference is now the time to fight for what we all believe in rather than rolling over and playing dead?
Everything that has been tried so far hasn't worked, why?
Oh yes coz we are British and we go at things TOO stoic and sensible, why haven't we done more to show our outrage at the ban, a few dead carcasses in London, a few people break into the HOP, a few people riot, it goes on and on, a few, a few, a few, we need to stand together and take action and like Alec says stop being sheep!!
Are people starting to realise that it will take a lot more people to storm the HOP to get our point across??
We have been on every march going and it hasn't made a difference is now the time to fight for what we all believe in rather than rolling over and playing dead?
Everything that has been tried so far hasn't worked, why?
Oh yes coz we are British and we go at things TOO stoic and sensible, why haven't we done more to show our outrage at the ban, a few dead carcasses in London, a few people break into the HOP, a few people riot, it goes on and on, a few, a few, a few, we need to stand together and take action and like Alec says stop being sheep!!
rosie fronfelen
Well-Known Member
The French do seem to get things done, by fair means or foul,we are too laid back and polite as a nation, but its time to go pass that and make our feeling felt!!!