Hunting before the 2005 ban

[Beth_0480]

Hi everyone!
just wondering if anyone hunted before the ban in 2005. Was the hunting different to what it is now?
do you have any story’s from days out hunting before this time?
Read the article on the last day hunting before the ban in 2005 and it really made me wonder
Thank you in advance

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Hunting before 2005 was no different. Which makes me think.... hello and welcome....

 

[rabatsa]

I hunted before the ban. I went a couple of times after and never again as it was not the same.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I hunted back in the mid to late 60's and early 70's. Not very often and only on ponies. Very different then but everything was. Many roads have been built since then and huge housing and warehousing developments gone up which have cut up the country and reduced the area available for farming and therefore hunting. I don't think it is just my imagination but the ground seems to have got a lot wetter too so hundreds of horses across your ground can be a nightmare. Certainly in the time we were farming our farm got much wetter to the point we couldn't take our tractor into some fields in winter without getting stuck.
I loved hunting but really couldn't be bothered now even if I still rode.

 

[Beth_0480]

I hunted back in the mid to late 60's and early 70's. Not very often and only on ponies. Very different then but everything was. Many roads have been built since then and huge housing and warehousing developments gone up which have cut up the country and reduced the area available for farming and therefore hunting. I don't think it is just my imagination but the ground seems to have got a lot wetter too so hundreds of horses across your ground can be a nightmare. Certainly in the time we were farming our farm got much wetter to the point we couldn't take our tractor into some fields in winter without getting stuck.
I loved hunting but really couldn't be bothered now even if I still rode.

thank you, it sounds wonderful. I’m only young so never got the chance to hunt before the ban and I feel envious when reading the story’s of days gone by!

 

[stormox]

I hunted before the ban- not to see a fox killed, all we ever thought about was the fun, crossing country you weren't normally allowed on, never knowing where you'd end up, sometimes hacking home in the dusk. The anticipation- cleaning tack, getting up at crack of dawn to plait, the satisfaction at the end of a long day, the villagers all coming out to watch in admiration...... I never went since the ban.

 

[Beth_0480]

I hunted before the ban- not to see a fox killed, all we ever thought about was the fun, crossing country you weren't normally allowed on, never knowing where you'd end up, sometimes hacking home in the dusk. The anticipation- cleaning tack, getting up at crack of dawn to plait, the satisfaction at the end of a long day, the villagers all coming out to watch in admiration...... I never went since the ban.

I’m starting to wish that I hadn’t asked this question I’m feeling very very jealous!!! Haha

 

[palo1]

I hunted as a child before the ban and as an adult after the ban; intervening years saw me support, oppose and be completely ambivalent to hunting activities but now (and for some years now) I have supported hunting activities.

Hunting before the ban was certainly very different. Before the ban obviously, foxes were hunted and generally there was, in my experience, greater acceptance of that and greater understanding of why hunting was an appropriate form of fox control. The field very rarely saw anything of this part (the killing of foxes) of the hunt though. Hunts tended to be more bound by tradition too - you were far more likely to be told off for some mistake than now probably and there were some really established hierarchies which made being a young member of the field a bit more daunting. In some ways hunting was more professional too - there was more money probably to support hunts though some always struggled and there have always been good and bad huntsmen and kennel management. I think it probably is right to say that hunting had a reputation for being snobby and entitled. That certainly wasn't always the case at all; there are a great many ordinary hunts that are drawn from very working class, industrial or not traditionally wealthy communities. Now I think, there is less sense of entitlement; hunters are much more aware of those that feel they have no right to continue their traditions. Also, back in the day hunting was far more connected to the general rural community; with very direct links to other horse sports and community activities. One of the big changes for hunting has been the movement of people out of the countryside looking for work and the equal movement of people into the countryside looking to escape from the city. This has rather changed rural communities; not necessarily for the worse but rural places are different now to how they were 20 years ago.

In some ways thankfully, hunting hasn't changed a huge amount; tradition is still very much valued as is, with the best hunts, the understanding of the privelege of being allowed access and to cross country not normally available to you. I think there are still many people who love hunting for the excitement of crossing the country, for being able to really gallop and jump a horse, to socialise with like minded people and to get that unique adrenaline rush of hearing hounds on the trail and knowing that you will have to do your best to keep up and work with your horse to stay safe and up together. That is still brilliantly exciting and challenging at times. ETA - I actually very rarely jump anything on a days hunting as I am really essentially in non-jumping country. Hunt countries and hunting days are hugely variable still in this respect.

I think hunting has become more open in some ways - established hierarchies have been challenged by the ban and good hunts want to attract newcomers so work harder to make folk welcome. I think that is a good thing and fairly recent counts have suggested that more people actually hunt now than immediately before the ban. Hunting has evolved. I often see younger people who don't want to commit to a subscription but will come out several times a season and that is fantastic. There are still the same reasons for riders to want to take a horse hunting too; it is still a great education and generally speaking horses love trail hunting - they never cared about whether it was a trail or fox being hunted either lol!!

It is still wonderful to have to prepare your horse, your clothing and tack for a days hunting and to have the business of getting to a meet in good time, to chat with people in a wonderful setting and then to hear the huntsman call hounds. There is still so much to enjoy and watching hounds work is something that gets better and better the more you hunt and understand what is going on. Watching houndwork can be addictive. There are still quite amazing craftsmen and women making a living out of hunting; through the tailoring of hunt coats and other clothes to the specialist (and not entirely necessary) boot makers, whip makers etc. For example: https://www.horacebatten.com/ - other makers available too!! https://showtimetailoring.com/. Side saddle is certainly enjoying a moment in the sun on the hunting field too. You are, however, probably freer now to turn up wearing clothes that may have been frowned upon previously. In my experience in recent years there has been something of a renaissance of 'glamour' in hunting clothes which is lovely for those that want to get into that! Look at Martha Sitwell as an example of that. (https://eventingnation.com/martha-me-part-i-how-i-got-invited-to-foxhunt-with-british-royalty/ and also here: https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/plus/features-plus/style-guru-martha-lady-sitwell-704932 and https://www.horsenation.com/2016/02/19/meeting-martha-part-iii-i-got-leburied-and-i-liked-it/) There are still quite amazing days to be had at the very traditional and usually pretty glamorous hound shows. Get to one if you can!!

Obviously the trail element of hunting now varies enormously; some hunts work really hard to conceal trail laying to try to keep the hunting experience as traditional as possible (I know too that this will attract particular HHO posters to scream that this is a 'smokescreen' for fox hunting but that isn't what your original post was about.) Other hunts have much more public or overt trail laying which makes the experience more like a drag hunt. Drag hunting is great fun, albeit different to trail hunting, and blood hounding is fantastic fun too; out of the two I would always prefer to go bloodhounding but that is entirely personal.

For me the thing that has changed the most has been the hound related stuff; it is so much harder for the huntsman now to train and maintain fox hounds under the ban. The ban was a daft piece of legislation that has left hound managers between a rock and a hard place - hounds can hunt a fox based scent - the premise of which was to maintain their uniquely brilliant scenting talents (which is really the point of foxhound and harrier breeding) but of course this leads to all sorts of trouble with actual and fictional breaches of the ban (breaking the law) as the hunters and antis slug it out in the field and in court. Some acts of appalling behaviour by hunts have been exposed. The antis make the most they can with any accusation of illegal hunting so it can feel like that happens more than it actually does. The antis at the moment have a strong presence in hunting and that can cause issues, though thankfully I personally have not experienced problems with sabs and just about every hunter I know hasn't felt put off by sabs or opponents. Most of the posts and media stuff you read from sabs are old, very heavily recycled or entirely, though loudly speculative. They are certainly very keen but I haven't met any hunters who feel that their activities have really put them off. However, I do think the 'noise' of the sabs and antis makes people more cautious about talking about hunting - it is often very surprising to know how many people like to see the hunt as well as those people you would never expect who go hunting though probably don't make a song and dance about it!!

Along with many other elements of 'traditional' rural life, hunting is more reqularly questioned and optimists say hunting is and will continue to evolve to answer those questions. Pessimists and opponents say hunting has had it's day. If you like the idea of trying hunting, beg or borrow a safe and sensible horse and get in touch with a local pack or a pack that you know is decent and friendly and give it a try. There is really nothing at all like it.

 

[stormox]

I think it depends what area you are in as to whether the sabs put people off.
They seem less annoying in certain areas, up north, or even in Leics, but in my own area just south of there - N'hants Beds Cambs Bucks they are downright threatening and have put a lot of my friends off going and the villagers find people in balaclavas running round the village and through their gardens an awful experience.

 

[palo1]

I think it depends what area you are in as to whether the sabs put people off.
They seem less annoying in certain areas, up north, or even in Leics, but in my own area just south of the Quorn they are downright threatening and have put a lot of my friends off going and the villagers find people in balaclavas running round the village and through their gardens an awful experience.

Yes, that is dire. I am sorry to hear this too. I still can't get my head round how and why this behaviour is tolerated in the countryside where it would result in the arrival of riot vans in the city...I hate the idea of people being put off what is a legitimate activity. Grim. Thankfully it is not like that so much here and I have only seen 2 monitors (very polite ladies who stuck to the footpaths) in the last 7 years. We don't mind that at all of course.

 

[Tiddlypom]

..I hate the idea of people being put off what is a legitimate activity.

Of course, as you well know, palo, not all or even much hunting post ban is conducted in a legitimate fashion .

 

[Billyandme]

I hunted a fair amount pre ban and a fw times post ban. I was immensely lucky pre ban to own the most amazing horse. He was sold to me as a first time owner. I later learnt he had in fact previously been owned by a local hunt. He was an utter tool to hunt and I have so many fantastic memories of days out on him. Sadly he was pts around time of the ban. My 2nd horse I knew had been hunted well. But OMG post ban it seemed as if everyone had lost their manners and the main aim seemed to be to ride as fast as you can and jump as many fences. Not for me thank you very much.

 

[Jellymoon]

I am going to counter this by saying I hunted pre ban, had a great time, then got more into eventing so didn’t hunt much, then started again post ban, had a great time!!
Just pick a good hunt and you will still have a fab time. And I feel it’s less snooty, more friendly now tbh.
I’ve also had a few cracking days drag hunting, almost better than normal hunting in some ways.

 

[ycbm]

I hunted pre ban and had a fabulous time. I was a bit concerned when I saw a fox that was clearly very unhappy, shortly before it was caught by the hounds but I put it out of my mind. Then one day I was invited cubbing by a prestigious hunt, the Berkeley.

We set out at dawn. I was told to join the other mounted followers spread out around a copse at a distance of about 10 metres apart each, and to bang my boot or saddle flap with my whip, talk loudly, or make any other kind of noise. The purpose of this was to keep the fox cubs inside the copse. Then the hounds were put into the copse and I listened while they slaughtered every cub in that wood.

I never hunted fox again.
.

 

[Sir barnaby]

I hunted pre ban and since the ban and definitely prefer before the ban, it was certainly more for fox control which needs to be done regardless, but it was great for teaching young horses most event horses hunted first to teach them different obstacles and terrain. I used to love going on point and watching the hounds work. One particular day out the huntsman sent me to the other side of the wood to stand on point, nobody told me that they had finished sweeping the wood so I got left behind and didn’t see hounds again till the following Saturday!!!!!
I have been recently but it definitely not the same you stay huddled up together and then go hell for leather to catch up, great for horsemanship but not to actually watch hounds and hunt staff work.
they have also included lots of jumping which I’m not keen on these days so it’s geared more for the younger generation that want a good day out.

 

[palo1]

I hunted pre ban and had a fabulous time. I was a bit concerned when I saw a fox that was clearly very unhappy, shortly before it was caught by the hounds but I put it out of my mind. Then one day I was invited cubbing by a prestigious hunt, the Berkeley.

We set out at dawn. I was told to join the other mounted followers spread out around a copse at a distance of about 10 metres apart each, and to bang my boot or saddle flap with my whip, talk loudly, or make any other kind of noise. The purpose of this was to keep the fox cubs inside the copse. Then the hounds were put into the copse and I listened while they slaughtered every cub in that wood.

I never hunted fox again.
.

With the greatest of respect @ycbm, if this was before the ban that practice of surrounding a covert with the field would not have been unusual. If you had been hunting before I wonder why this method of cubbing surprised or shocked you? It was a fairly standard way of keeping young hounds and foxes in the same space, though some young foxes would usually find a gap in the 'line'. A huntsman might often choose not to hunt that depending on what he wanted to 'achieve' with hounds and in relation to landowner requests/preferences. However, I certainly have never encountered a cubbing situation where all the young foxes were killed in a covert - that would be entirely odd and counter productive for a hunt. In my experience cubbing was absolutely organised so that young hounds could hunt in the covert and young foxes would 'learn' about being hunted. Certainly young foxes - not cubs but juvenile foxes were killed but there are not a huge number of cubbing days in a season, generally huntsmen had a number of coverts to put young hounds into and it would be just extraordinary if a huntsman focussed on killing every cub in one place; the idea is also to teach young hounds their country which requires moving on. The only scenario I can imagine this happening was where a landowner was hell bent on killing as many foxes as possible. In that scenario, I agree that it sounds excessive but his land, his rules and before the ban hunting was absolutely about fox control.

I have never hunted with the Berkeley but I have friends who have. It is a pretty traditional hunt with quite a few farming folk and so maybe there were specific reasons why that incident happened. I have no idea but I haven't experienced that myself.

Post ban, similar happens with rifles and for foxers with or without 2 dogs (not hounds and not related to hunting); there is absolutely nothing to stop a party of guns and friends surrounding a covert and moving in to 'slaughter' every cub in the wood. It would certainly not be my choice but banning hunting hasn't stopped that happening in other ways.

 

[ycbm]

Palo I cannot believe you are defending cubbing, never mind that you appear to be blaming me for not understanding the barbarity which I was unknowingly going to be made party to.
.

 

[palo1]

Palo I cannot believe you are defending cubbing, never mind that you appear to be blaming me for not understanding the barbarity which I was unknowingly going to be made party to.
.

@ycbm - I wasn't defending cubbing but explaining what I knew of it. It may well be distasteful; I made no comment on that to be fair. Personally I am certain that hunting with hounds was the most humane method of fox control - I think you know that. I don't want to derail this thread by discussing the various views on hunting, I was just sharing my experience.

 

[paddy555]

The anticipation- cleaning tack, getting up at crack of dawn to plait, the satisfaction at the end of a long day, the villagers all coming out to watch in admiration...... I never went since the ban.

I remember all this so well. Unfortunately I remember the exact opposite. The anticipation. Yes knowing it was going to be another PITA day. The villagers coming out to watch in admiration. Except of course the ones where hounds would run through their gardens, and of course the moggy cats some of which didn't see tomorrow. The admiration as hounds and sometimes even horse riders ran across my fields disturbing my horses and cattle. I remember my poor old Jersey. She didn't seem to have the same degree of admiration but then again she was pretty old, retired and didn't appreciate everything running around her. My horses who normally spent their time quietly grazing charging around and damaging the fields as the hunt riled them up.

I don't remember any admiration as I looked at our single track road completely blocked with traffic for a mile. No way through and no chance the hunt supporters were ever going to move let alone back. Still I was grateful we didn't need an ambulance and the house wasn't burning down.I remember the manners of some of the car followers. One deliberately closed a gate in my face. Extraordinary thing to do but then I was just in my scruffy old jeans on an unplaited horse so I wasn't one of them. The manners of the riders were not much better.

We do agree though on the satisfaction at the end of the long day. I could let the dog (who resembled a fox) and the cats out again and the dreadful performance was finally over until the next time which would come around far too quickly.

 

[Sir barnaby]

When we went cubbing and surrounded a copse or wood we were told by the master it was purely to disperse the young foxes that were still with the parents and it was so they would then leave the area to set up somewhere else and once hounds went in we were to allow any foxes that came near us to pass. There were times when we did have to hold up the fox but it was usually just as palo said on the instructions of the farmer if he was having trouble with a particular fox that had been troubling his lambs or chickens.
I went trail hunting after the ban and as we were following the trail through some woods we came across a pile of about 6 foxes that had been shot by the gamekeepers. They didn’t have chance to escape like the ones did that hounds would find in the covers and to be honest a good healthy young fox would invariably get away as was too ’cunning’ for the hounds.

 

[ycbm]

As if the young foxes wouldn't disperse themselves if that was natural? Or to spread them out deliberately to give the hunt a bigger area to hunt fox in? Just like the "culling the old and weak" argument results in stronger foxes to give hunts more sport.

These threads always go one way, defense of what most people see as indefensible.

 

[palo1]

As if the young foxes wouldn't disperse themselves if that was natural? Or to spread them out deliberately to give the hunt a bigger area to hunt fox in? Just like the "culling the old and weak" argument results in stronger foxes to give hunts more sport.

These threads always go one way, defense of what most people see as indefensible.

Ordinarily, in places where foxes have natural predators in place, they are dispersed by those predators (as part of a trophic cascade). That is considered healthy and natural by most ecologists. Here in the UK those predators are not in place so the hunt (pre-ban) acting as a predator was ecologically appropriate. It is still arguable that the mere presence of hounds has some of the benefits of a trophic cascade; this is recognised as a significant and desirable effect in healthy eco-systems.

The fact that this was managed through hunting may be indefensible to you but it doesn't change the fact that the effect is widely believed to be beneficial and appropriate. Environmental and biodiversity charities and experts are keen to re-establish or replicate these natural trophic cascades to help slow down our extinction and climate crisis.

 

[Tiddlypom]

When I have witnessed cubbing, mostly pre ban but also early post ban , foxes were prevented from escaping/dispersing from the covert by the field who encircled it and made a lot of noise.

There was no attempt to disperse the young foxes. It was all about giving young hounds easy kills in a confined area, to teach them their trade, if you like.

 

[L&M]

What a shame this thread has turned into yet another 'anti' vs 'pro' debate.......

Can't we just stick to the op's question?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Can't we just stick to the op's question?

It was perfectly fair to bring up the subject of cubbing in response to the OP’s post. Anyone going autumn hunting post ban should no longer see what I and ycbm describe.

As you know, I hunted pre ban, and I still believe that the countryside and fox population were managed better pre ban.

I am not an anti.

 

[ycbm]

What a shame this thread has turned into yet another 'anti' vs 'pro' debate.......

Can't we just stick to the op's question?

I did what the OP asked, relate my own experience of pre 2005 hunting. Others chose to question those experiences or explain/defend the activities rather than stick to the OPs question.

I think what you really mean is, can anyone with negative experiences pre 2005 please not write about them?
.

 

[Beth_0480]

I didn’t mean for this to become a big argument, I know that the topic of hunting can be seen as controversial but I really hoped my question wouldn’t be taken that way. Thank you for everyone who has shared there experience and stories in a kind and respectful manner.

 

[Orangehorse]

I hunted pre ban on ponies and horses. Every day you went out there was uncertaintity, will there be a run or not? Will the hounds find a fox or will it be a blank day?
You had to wait until the hounds found a fox, and then follow as the hounds chased the fox over his own local countryside.

It was quite common to move away from a patch of cover that the hounds had been through, to look back and see the fox leaving the cover in the opposite direction.

I never saw a fox killed, and I was pretty happy about that, although I realised that it was the aim.

One of my biggest regrets in life is that I didn't do more hunting when I had the chance, pre and post the ban.

 

[ycbm]

I didn’t mean for this to become a big argument, I know that the topic of hunting can be seen as controversial but I really hoped my question wouldn’t be taken that way. Thank you for everyone who has shared there experience and stories in a kind and respectful manner.

Are you only interested in fox hunting, Beth? Because for me, as someone who only ever hunted to ride across country and jump things, I had some terrific fun out fox and drag hunting. I don't have any fox hunting pictures, but this drag hunt pic is pretty well known on the forum.

..

 

[L&M]

I did what the OP asked, relate my own experience of pre 2005 hunting. Others chose to question those experiences or explain/defend the activities rather than stick to the OPs question.

I think what you really mean is, can anyone with negative experiences pre 2005 please not write about them?
.

Of course I don't - why make such an assumption?!

This type of comment is the very reason why I now avoid contributing on hunting posts.......