Hunting is in a spot of bother

[FieldOrnaments]

If anyone struggling to read - Tiddlypom sorry if this is treading on your toes in anyway & thank you very much for posting and keeping respectful discussion going on the issue. It's a step forward so long as properly enforced.

OVERLEY BARN, DAGLINGWORTEL CHENCESTER, GLOUCESTE GL77HX

Terrier Work and Trail Hunting

Effective from: Wednesday 17 December 2025

1. Separation of Terrier Work from Trail Hunting

Terrier work must not form part of, or be associated with, a day's trail hunting.

Nothing in this rule prevents terrier work which is lawful under the Hunting Act 2004, provided it is undertaken separately and is unconnected with the day's trail hunting.

2. No Terrier Equipment With the Hunt

No vehicle carrying terriers, terrier boxes, or equipment intended or configured for terrier work may accompany, follow, or be associated with a day's trail hunting.

This does not prevent the carriage of general-purpose tools for legitimate country work or emergency repairs.

3. Hunt Responsibility

Hunts and Masters are responsible for ensuring that no terrier work or terrier-related activity is associat with a day's trail hunting.

If such activity occurs, the hunt and Masters may be held responsible unless they can clearly demonstrat that it was not associated with the day's trail hunting

4. Enforcement

Breaches will result in disciplinary action, which may include:

suspension of trail hunting,

withdrawal of recognition;

referral to the HSRA:

suspension or removal of terrierman registration.

Repeated or serious breaches may result in long-term suspension.

Guidance Note: Visibility and Conduct During Hunting

(Relevant to all forms of hunting, not a Rule.)

This guidance is relevant to all forms of hunting, including trail hunting, exempt hunting and other lawfu hunting activities.

To maintain a clear distinction between lawful hunting and those who conceal their identity for confrontational purposes, it is not appropriate for anyone present at or associated with a hunting day to obscure their identity. Any face covering that has this effect-in whole or in part, and regardless of type

- should only be used where required as safety equipment or due to severe weather.

Visible openness supports trust with landowners, the public and Government, and reinforces confidence lawful hunting.

PRESERVING, PROTECTING AND PROMOTING THE FUTURE OF HOUNDS AND HUNTS​

 

[Tiddlypom]

Thanks for the transcript, FieldOrnaments - much easier to read than from my blurry photo .

 

[I'm Dun]

too little, too late still

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I don't know what a typical field size would be for a hunt at this time of year but the (not local) hunt came through our village at the weekend and it seemed to me not very many people. Probably not more than 20 following plus hunt staff, if that. They said they were drag hunting on our local village page, I don't know if that is different to trail hunting?

I haven't seen any post from the sab group about the event yet and they were there following. Usually they post when there has been suspicious/illegal activity.

The general gist I'm getting is this hunt are making noises/being seen to be changing what they do but whether that is genuine or not is unclear. The only reason they're in this area is because they've been booted off their usual patch for not cleaning up their act, and the hunt that was here historically was booted out of hunting completely. It doesn't fill one with confidence on that. I'd love it if we had a genuine Bloodhound or Drag hunt here!

 

[palo1]

If anyone struggling to read - Tiddlypom sorry if this is treading on your toes in anyway & thank you very much for posting and keeping respectful discussion going on the issue. It's a step forward so long as properly enforced.

OVERLEY BARN, DAGLINGWORTEL CHENCESTER, GLOUCESTE GL77HX

Terrier Work and Trail Hunting

Effective from: Wednesday 17 December 2025

1. Separation of Terrier Work from Trail Hunting

Terrier work must not form part of, or be associated with, a day's trail hunting.

Nothing in this rule prevents terrier work which is lawful under the Hunting Act 2004, provided it is undertaken separately and is unconnected with the day's trail hunting.

2. No Terrier Equipment With the Hunt

No vehicle carrying terriers, terrier boxes, or equipment intended or configured for terrier work may accompany, follow, or be associated with a day's trail hunting.

This does not prevent the carriage of general-purpose tools for legitimate country work or emergency repairs.

3. Hunt Responsibility

Hunts and Masters are responsible for ensuring that no terrier work or terrier-related activity is associat with a day's trail hunting.

If such activity occurs, the hunt and Masters may be held responsible unless they can clearly demonstrat that it was not associated with the day's trail hunting

4. Enforcement

Breaches will result in disciplinary action, which may include:

suspension of trail hunting,

withdrawal of recognition;

referral to the HSRA:

suspension or removal of terrierman registration.

Repeated or serious breaches may result in long-term suspension.

Guidance Note: Visibility and Conduct During Hunting

(Relevant to all forms of hunting, not a Rule.)

This guidance is relevant to all forms of hunting, including trail hunting, exempt hunting and other lawfu hunting activities.

To maintain a clear distinction between lawful hunting and those who conceal their identity for confrontational purposes, it is not appropriate for anyone present at or associated with a hunting day to obscure their identity. Any face covering that has this effect-in whole or in part, and regardless of type

- should only be used where required as safety equipment or due to severe weather.

Visible openness supports trust with landowners, the public and Government, and reinforces confidence lawful hunting.

PRESERVING, PROTECTING AND PROMOTING THE FUTURE OF HOUNDS AND HUNTS​

This has been de facto for many hunts for some time - at least in this area since the 'Smokescreen' debacle. The BHSA are really not doing hunting any favours. Some hunts have maintained terrier work on a days trail hunting because it combined access, 'felt' traditional and maintained some of the existing relationships. I know it looks bad and many hunts did just separate legal terrier work from legal trail hunting so this isn't really news but even so the BHSA aren't acknowledging that which just makes it look like all hunts have carried on with terrier work all this time which isn't actually the case! I understand why some hunting people have been resistant too: neither trail hunting or terrier work are illegal after all.

 

[Clodagh]

This has been de facto for many hunts for some time - at least in this area since the 'Smokescreen' debacle. The BHSA are really not doing hunting any favours. Some hunts have maintained terrier work on a days trail hunting because it combined access, 'felt' traditional and maintained some of the existing relationships. I know it looks bad and many hunts did just separate legal terrier work from legal trail hunting so this isn't really news but even so the BHSA aren't acknowledging that which just makes it look like all hunts have carried on with terrier work all this time which isn't actually the case! I understand why some hunting people have been resistant too: neither trail hunting or terrier work are illegal after all.

The MFHA decreed it years ago but the BHSA pretended not to hear. Well overdue.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Drone footage showing extremely suspicious looking activity.

Avon and Somerset Police is investigating the video and has also hosted a meeting with several local hunts to remind them of the law. The Vale of Taunton and Banwell Harriers Hunt has been approached for comment.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwywg05rx1go?app-referrer=deep-link

 

[Tiddlypom]

For people who abhor the hunting with hounds of any wild animal, but who support hounds following trails left by human runners only - no ‘dragged’ scents of potentially suspect origin.

A chance to join, as an individual, an organisation which is all about hunting the ‘clean boot’, ie a human runner. This is the only version of hunting that is likely to survive the upcoming ban as it is much easier to police even than fully legal and well intended drag hunting.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/2831319686905741/permalink/25196748953269495/?

From the comments.

The CBHA is unique in making it mandatory that member hunts MUST publish their meets, MUST have maps of their planned routes available for inspection at the meet, and the huntsman MUST know the routes the Quarries (runners) will be taking. This means a hunt could be monitored on any hunting day by the Police or anti hunt individuals if they suspect a hunt of operating illegally, and this monitoring could not be known in advance by the hunt. Therefore evidence gathering would be very straight forward. As such, it would be impossible for a hunt to operate illegally without the almost certainly of being caught.

 

[Sanversera]

Locally the hunt recently entered land they had been specifically told not to go onto , cut down hedging to facilitate entry,frighten the grazing horses on the land and a member of the hunt tried to ride down the farmer when he confronted them.

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

Someone was telling me yesterday about undercover police who are actively looking in the countryside for illegal hunting as the government are trying to gather info for a review next year.

 

[gunnergundog]

Log in to Facebook

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www.facebook.com

Hurrah! Common sense prevails. I don't expect anyone else on this forum to support NOR will I be entering into debate on this subject as I don't enjoy bashing my head against a brick wall. You can be as rude, derogatory and inaccurate as you like. Just grateful that I moved my hunters abroad a few seasons ago.

 

[TGM]

For people who abhor the hunting with hounds of any wild animal, but who support hounds following trails left by human runners only - no ‘dragged’ scents of potentially suspect origin.

A chance to join, as an individual, an organisation which is all about hunting the ‘clean boot’, ie a human runner. This is the only version of hunting that is likely to survive the upcoming ban as it is much easier to police even than fully legal and well intended drag hunting.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/2831319686905741/permalink/25196748953269495/?

From the comments.

The CBHA is unique in making it mandatory that member hunts MUST publish their meets, MUST have maps of their planned routes available for inspection at the meet, and the huntsman MUST know the routes the Quarries (runners) will be taking. This means a hunt could be monitored on any hunting day by the Police or anti hunt individuals if they suspect a hunt of operating illegally, and this monitoring could not be known in advance by the hunt. Therefore evidence gathering would be very straight forward. As such, it would be impossible for a hunt to operate illegally without the almost certainly of being caught.

The CBHA has just one member hunt at present, the hunt run by the founder of the CBHA.

The majority of clean boot hunts belong to the Master of Draghounds and Bloodhounds Association, which the founder of the CBHA declined to join. The MDBA has a detailed compliance scheme on its website, detailing things like having maps etc. available.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Gunnerdog, perhaps you could précis what the Facebook link is about? No hint of the content on that link without opening it blind.

 

[PurpleSpots]

Gunnerdog, perhaps you could précis what the Facebook link is about? No hint of the content on that link without opening it blind.

It's just a link to someone crowing about a recent vote in Ireland about foxhunting. Banning it was just defeated at the second stage.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Thanks. Link to a newspaper report on the Irish vote to ban hunting being defeated.

Gunnerdog, you’ve accepted that to continue fox hunting that you needed to move your hunters to a country where it is still legal. Which is a lot better than people carrying on hunting here where it is banned.

Remember that a number of frequent posters on this thread have actually hunted pre ban, me included.

Bill to ban fox hunting defeated in Dáil

The bill to ban fox hunting in Ireland, proposed by People Before Profit-Solidarity TD Ruth Coppinger, has been defeated in the Dáil.

www.rte.ie

ETA

The CBHA has just one member hunt at present, the hunt run by the founder of the CBHA.

The majority of clean boot hunts belong to the Master of Draghounds and Bloodhounds Association, which the founder of the CBHA declined to join. The MDBA has a detailed compliance scheme on its website, detailing things like having maps etc. available.

Thanks for the info .

IMHO clean boot hunting really needs to separate itself completely from drag hunting, it’s a different beast altogether, and then it might just survive the upcoming cull.

 

[druid]

To be fair, the Irish bill wasn't just hunting with hounds. It also banned trail hunting and the use of currently legal snares and fox traps.

 

[TGM]

IMHO clean boot hunting really needs to separate itself completely from drag hunting, it’s a different beast altogether, and then it might just survive the upcoming cull.

I can assure you the matter has been widely discussed, but it seems hugely unfair and unjust to ditch the drag hunts in the MDBA when they have been hunting totally legally.

 

[cauda equina]

Shooting hares in England to be banned for most of the year

Exclusive: Ministers also expected to announce trail-hunting ban in sweeping changes to animal welfare law

www.theguardian.com

Shooting hares in England will be banned for most of the year as part of sweeping changes to animal welfare law.

At the moment, it is legal to shoot the animals during their breeding season, with pregnant hares left to bleed out, and leverets – their young – often orphaned as a result.


Ministers are also expected to announce the implementation of a ban on trail hunting, where hounds follow a scent rather than pursue a live animal. This was a manifesto commitment, and the new animal welfare strategy that will be announced on Monday is understood to outline a planned legislative pathway to the ban.
Campaigners have long said the rules need to be tightened because foxes are still often torn to shreds by dogs who are following an artificial fox scent and run into the path of a live animal.

The nature minister, Mary Creagh, said: “Brown hares are a cherished part of our countryside, an iconic British species, and it’s simply wrong that so many are shot during breeding season. I am determined to stop the decline of this wonderful animal.”

It is hoped that the animal welfare package, to be announced in full, will also raise the spirits of Labour MPs and voters after months of party infighting, continuing rises in the cost of living, and a prolonged slump in the polls.

Previous polling showed 79% of the public thought the law on foxhunting should be tightened to stop trail hunts from accidentally killing foxes. Labour sources said their polling showed 85% of the public believed there was a moral duty to protect animal welfare.

The new close season will ban hare hunting during the breeding months of February to October to protect mothers and the young. At present, hares are shot for their meat, for fun, and because some landowners in the countryside believe it is overpopulated with the animals.

However, the claim that the countryside is overpopulated with hares is dubious. Brown hare populations in England and Wales have declined by 80% over the past century.

George Eustice, the former Conservative environment secretary, tried while in post to implement a close season for hares but was blocked by No 10.

He told the Guardian: “The first principle of conservation is to protect species during their breeding season, so it is excellent news that the government will now create a modern close season on the shooting of hares. Every year, approximately 200,000 hares are killed in organised, commercial shoots during February and March and this has a devastating impact on the orphaned leverets, which are left to starve to death.

“Even the Victorians recognised the need for a close season but the 1892 act was based on a ban on sales, so no longer works. The current government deserves credit for finally getting this important change done.”

 

[I'm Dun]

stupid question, but why are hares shot? Is it for "sport"? And where are they finding all these hares to shoot?

 

[Clodagh]

East Anglia, Essex and Suffolk anyway is completely overwhelmed with hares. If we took the lamp out at night there would be 30 + in each field. They hammer the crops. Also as buzzard populations increase hares are changing behaviour and becoming more wood dwelling by daytime, so browsing and killing young trees.
They can shoot 300 a day on some Suffolk estates.
Shooting them is awful, we didn’t, they scream like babies. But it’s understandable in some situations.
Also heavy populations lead to an increase in illegal coursing.

 

[palo1]

East Anglia, Essex and Suffolk anyway is completely overwhelmed with hares. If we took the lamp out at night there would be 30 + in each field. They hammer the crops. Also as buzzard populations increase hares are changing behaviour and becoming more wood dwelling by daytime, so browsing and killing young trees.
They can shoot 300 a day on some Suffolk estates.
Shooting them is awful, we didn’t, they scream like babies. But it’s understandable in some situations.
Also heavy populations lead to an increase in illegal coursing.

Thankfully that is not how it is here in the Brecon Beacons - shooting them isn't needed and harrier hound packs long ago stopped hunting them (pre-ban). Brown hares are no issue at all and nothing on this earth could persuade me to kill one but I know they can be a serious problem as you describe. A closed season seems entirely reasonable though where they breed and thrive in huge numbers already I know some will disagree with that. Illegal coursing is also a serious nuisance but I don't imagine the closed season will make any difference to that.

 

[Clodagh]

Thankfully that is not how it is here in the Brecon Beacons - shooting them isn't needed and harrier hound packs long ago stopped hunting them (pre-ban). Brown hares are no issue at all and nothing on this earth could persuade me to kill one but I know they can be a serious problem as you describe. A closed season seems entirely reasonable though where they breed and thrive in huge numbers already I know some will disagree with that. Illegal coursing is also a serious nuisance but I don't imagine the closed season will make any difference to that.

It would be easier in winter as well as they are more visible? Although I suppose the lamps at night negate that need.

 

[BurntontheoutsideTurkey]

I'm not denying the issues some species cause farmers but I must admit to struggling with the concept that much of what we do harms specialist species sometimes to the point of extinction while providing opportunities for generalists to thrive, at which point we shoot/trap/poison because we gave them what they need to live. The whole thing feels awful, destructive and almost nihilistic to me.

 

[teapot]

Beeb now has it too https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g9y20j259o

Pretty decent hare population in my part of Sussex too

 

[cauda equina]

I've only just noticed - the front of H&H no longer has those lines from Whyte-Melville - "I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to horse and hound"
When did that go?

 

[Tiddlypom]

I've only just noticed - the front of H&H no longer has those lines from Whyte-Melville - "I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to horse and hound"
When did that go?

Interesting, that has been there as long as I can remember.

Last seen on the 20 November 2025 edition, but not on the subsequent 4 editions .



ETA.

Well, we all know where the minister for animal welfare, Baroness Hayman, got the term “smokescreen” from, don’t we. Right from the hugely damaging leaked BHSA webinars.

"There are concerns that trail hunting is being used as a smokescreen for the hunting of wild animals, and that's not acceptable.

 

[cauda equina]

Interesting, that has been there as long as I can remember.

Last seen on the 20 November 2025 edition, but not on the subsequent 4 editions .

View attachment 170525

ETA.

Well, we all know where the minister for animal welfare, Baroness Hayman, got the term “smokescreen” from, don’t we. Right from the hugely damaging leaked BHSA webinars.

"There are concerns that trail hunting is being used as a smokescreen for the hunting of wild animals, and that's not acceptable.

Me too
When I was a kid I thought it was H&H being conceited until my mum told me about the poem

 

[Clodagh]

I'm not denying the issues some species cause farmers but I must admit to struggling with the concept that much of what we do harms specialist species sometimes to the point of extinction while providing opportunities for generalists to thrive, at which point we shoot/trap/poison because we gave them what they need to live. The whole thing feels awful, destructive and almost nihilistic to me.

Trouble is, if you want to eat bread you need to grow wheat.

 

[BurntontheoutsideTurkey]

Trouble is, if you want to eat bread you need to grow wheat.

I do know that. (I don't eat bread but etc.) It was literally the first thing I said. I just dislike the world I have to live in, where humans have almost finished taking everything for themselves. They decry selfishness in individuals but seem unable to see it in themselves as a whole.