Hunting on land without permission

[Isbister]

S...

There is no such thing as tresspass

...

Where do you get that idea from? The law of trespass is fairly straightforward and the nuisance you describe does seem to be a straightforward case of trespass, aggravated by the fact that the hunt had previously been warned off. It would be perfectly in order for the hunt to be presented with a bill for any damage or loss of amenity that they have caused. Money talks. Most hunts bend over backwards to avoid this sort of situation and I can't understand why the MFH allowed it to happen.

The police would be unlikely to take an interest - this is a civil matter and ultimately the remedy lies in the civil courts should your friend wish to pursue the matter.

 

[Polos Mum]

Is he quite timid?

Do you know him too?? He's lovely but I agree if I'd have called them they'd not be back..... but it's entirely possible he's spoken to the wrong person and not been firm enough - he doesn't really do angry (until yesterday afternoon that is !!)

 

[Ditchjumper2]

Agree totally unacceptable behaviour. We always know where we can / can't go. I am not saying that mistakes never happen but should be rectified. With regards to going across his fields. Were they on the tramlines? If we cross fields rather than go round we go in the tramlines...no excuse when you are not even supposed to be there....but may explain why they went across. We would only do that on beet or rape.

 

[Countryman]

This sounds absolutely mad! Hunts cannot expect to provide good sport if they refuse to engage with their farmers and landowners, and that means respecting their wishes when land is closed to the hunt. And to ride straight over sown fields? I can't imagine what was going through their minds. Most hunts try to avoid this situation at all costs, and if they ever do inadvertently stray, send a Master round the next day to explain and apologise. I'd second the opinions of others who say a letter to the Chairman or Master is necessary; this is how hunting gives itself a bad name.

 

[Alec Swan]

Such behaviour is disgraceful. The steps to take;

1. A letter with a claim for crop damage to the Master.

If that's ignored, then,

2. The very same letter to the MFHA.

If that doesn't work, and it will, then,

3. The Local and if need's be, the National press.

Those who hunt do so by consent, not by right. this is 2014 not 1714. We've moved on, a bit.

Alec.

 

[cptrayes]

There is no such thing as tresspass

Yes there is, it is a civil offence and you can sue if damage was caused.

Criminal damage requires proof of intent to cause damage - clearly this isn't their intent - just a sad consequence

I'm not sure this is correct. Reckless behaviour that results in damage can, I think, be criminal damage.


This behaviour appears to me to be getting into the realms of harassment and your neighbour might ask the police to take action under the harassment laws. They may also be able to issue a restraining order.

 

[Countryman]

Such behaviour is disgraceful. The steps to take;

1. A letter with a claim for crop damage to the Master.

If that's ignored, then,

2. The very same letter to the MFHA.

If that doesn't work, and it will, then,

3. The Local and if need's be, the National press.

Those who hunt do so by consent, not by right. this is 2014 not 1714. We've moved on, a bit.

Alec.

I'd add, maybe copy the letter to the Hunt Chairman, to the Hunt Masters- who would have been in charge on the day - in addition to the MFHA. This behaviour sounds crazy and utterly unjustified. While all hunts may occasionally stray, this usually entails two riders cutting across a smallholding-still going round the field margins-to stop hounds getting onto a main road - and this only occurs once every few years and should be followed up with fulsome apologies and visits by the Master.

 

[Clodagh]

The CA will, I imagine, be as much use as a chocolate teapot. I would go to the MFHA, they are the governing body of hunting and they can and do kick butt when necessary. Which hunt is it? someone on here must hunt with them or know someone that does?

 

[Goldenstar]

The CA will, I imagine, be as much use as a chocolate teapot. I would go to the MFHA, they are the governing body of hunting and they can and do kick butt when necessary. Which hunt is it? someone on here must hunt with them or know someone that does?

I have to say when I had my issues with a shoot the CA where fantasic they took me through how everything worked with a shoot want they can and can't do when they are exercising rights near people's homes and gardens and gave me all the imformation I needed to deal with the issue myself .
Which armed with what they had explained I did .

 

[Goldenstar]

PM has never said who the landowner spoke to it could just have been random followers perhaps even just paying cap for a day we just don't know.
I just can't believer that proper approaches to the apporiate people have produced no result it just so different to my experiance of how these things work.

 

[Daddy_Long_Legs]

That is appalling behaviour on behalf of the hunt. Solicitors l;etter and bill for damage to crops and send it to all the masters!!

 

[Polos Mum]

My neighbour is waiting for response from master, it was the secretary he dealt with previously.

As an aside the local police are now being informed about meets as this particular hunt are causing so many complaints to be made to them about using land without permission.
Sadly I think this hunt is not helping with the reputation of well meaning packs.

 

[Herne]

Hi, Polos Mum,

As an MFH of many years' experience, if you want to PM me some details, I will see if I can have a word in the right ears.

 

[Judgemental]

Oh for goodness sake, what is the matter with all you people, posting on this forum and having a whinge one way and another about hunt's without naming them.

It means nothing and is pointless. If you are agrieved by the conduct or performance of a hunt, plainly state the name.

It is wet and pathetic to dance around whinging and complaining but not to name names.

Which goes to show you are intimidated by the hunt, which is another good reason to name names.

They are only a hunt, they are like any other organisation and have to provide value for money and abide by the law, coupled to normal hunting protocols and customs.

This is the second thread I have found this afternoon, where somebody is complaining yet leaves everybody in the dark as to which hunt is concerned.

Name and shame or put up and shut up.

 

[Hackie]

The OP was asking advice on what avenues to take to deal with a hunt and their ongoing behaviour, not necessarily 'whinging and complaining' for the sake of it, and there is no need to publically name them on the internet to do so. Surely that's allowed?

 

[Alec Swan]

I'm staggered to hear that this complaint against a Pack (NOT a hunt FH'sS!), rumbles on. Judgemental is entirely correct. If those responsible for such thoughtless and ignorant behaviour are to remain under the protection of anonymity, then the claim is of no value.

I'm sorry Polos Mum, but if you expect clear advice from those (including an MFH, I'd add), who hold hunting dearly, and if you refuse to be clear in your claim, then your complaint is of no worth, and you could be considered to be bent upon mischief, rather than resolve.

If need's be, PM those on here who may be able to assist you. That or withdraw your claim. 'Tis up to you!

Alec.

 

[Tiddlypom]

if you refuse to be clear in your claim, then your complaint is of no worth, and you could be considered to be bent upon mischief, rather than resolve.

If need's be, PM those on here who may be able to assist you. That or withdraw your claim. 'Tis up to you!

Alec.

What's wrong with seeking general advice and guidance re this matter? Does the OP have to 'name and shame' the hunt in question?

Polo's Mum does not seem to me to be 'bent on mischief' of any sort, Alec. Instead, I suspect that you are, in trying to provoke her to name the hunt.

 

[Polos Mum]

I'm not sure how naming the Pack (sorry) helps anyone answer my questions. I was not complaining I was asking for advice of others who may have experienced similar.

 

[Herne]

I'm not sure how naming the Pack (sorry) helps anyone answer my questions. I was not complaining I was asking for advice of others who may have experienced similar.

I agree. I would have thought that "naming and shaming" is more open to malicious abuse than anonymous enquiries.

However, hypothetical questions and answers on here aren't going to help your specific problem either.

The best advice you have been given is to contact the Masters of Fox Hounds Association (http://www.mfha.org.uk/) and give them the specific details.

(Or take up my earlier offer...)

 

[Polos Mum]

Herne, many thanks I understand the situation is in hand.

As an aside can you imagine if ever thread on here had to name names? Every livery yard who shut turn out in terrible weather named or every livery client who left without paying full notice names - the site would be shut within hours by H&H worried about slander suits.

Equally you don't need to live at 221B to look up some of my other threads and work out where I live and hence who local pack are.

 

[Houndman]

How did you get on? Like has been said, a letter followed up with a phone call to the MFHA if the hunt didn't respond. You should contact the Masters and the Secretary, not just one person.

Trouble is, most people riding over the land after the hounds wouldn't realise that the landowner didnt want people riding across it so it's not really fair to blame them all. In reality it's probably just down to one person being at fault or not communicating with the others.

 

[AengusOg]

Are you in Scotland, OP, to say there's no such thing as trespass? I know the right to roam is very much in force up there,

There is no such thing as 'the right to roam' in Scotland. There is, however, a Right of Responsible Access.

Incidently, although the bulk of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 does not apply in Scotland, those parts which relate to trespass do. Scots Law decrees that trespass is a civil matter in Scotland, unless the transgressor is in unlawful pursuit of game, ie poaching, in which case it becomes a police concern. Although the Scottish Land Reform Act superseded the trespass law in Scotland, non compliance with the terms of that act can still be termed 'trespass'.

 

[Houndman]

Best to keep at the MFHA and the hunt. Solicitors can cost a fortune - expect to pay at least £180 for a letter to be sent. If you decide to pursue a claim in court you have the small claims fee to pay, plus payment to a professional to come up with an amount to be claimed for crop damage, then there's payment for any enforcement, with no guarantee that you are going to recoup all your expenses. The only people who win are the lawyers.

I know someone round here who has had an ongoing case with poachers trespassing on the land who have not actually been caught in the act and it's virtually impossible to do anything unless you can catch them at it when it then becomes a criminal matter. Trespass onto land is fair enough in writing but you have to be able to quantify any damage to bring a case. The only ways it can be considered criminal is with is people coming onto land to cause harrassment or stalking, such as where antis have been involved with harrassment of individuals or paparazzi have gone onto celebrities land, or theft (goods or poaching).

Another option you could take is send the hunt an invoice for the damage caused (but do not inflate this beyond what would be a reasonable cost to you in lost production and time or it will reflect badly on you with other people and your neighbours)

 

[Ashley Stewart]

Did you ever resolve this situation or go to the police? Damaging someone's property through recklessness is criminal damage regardless of any intention as per the Criminal Damage Act 1971. And trespassing on someone's property to commit criminal damage is criminal trespass which would allow an arrest simply for trespassing on your property.

 

[Houndman]

It's unlikely that the police would get involved unless significant damage is caused or that deliberate intent to damge property can be proven. Trampling crops etc is difficult to quantify. Trespass is a civil matter unless it can be proven that there was deliberate intent to cause damage / distress or that a significant amount of damage occurred.

 

[Dry Rot]

It is a longtime since I was involved with hunts and hunting but I think there is something called "hot pursuit". It is very difficult to stop a pack of hounds on a hot scent (just see how many posts there are about dear little Fido not coming to call!). Also, animals tend to repeat what works, witness the story of the fox that regularly ran along a railway track causing the death of several hounds run over by the train. So I would not be too hard on hounds crossing land. Riders following is another matter and that sounds like poor communications which is unforgivable in today's age of easy electronic communications.

As regards the damage, inconvenience, and upset, if it were my land and the hunt had been told they were banned, I would bill them. Very simple. And I'd bill them not just for the damage but for every penny of my time, telephone calls, loss of income, loss of cropping, disruption of my crop rotation, disruption of my business, and anything else I could think of! The law requires the aggrieved party is put back in the situation he was in before the trespass occurred -- in so far as money can do it.

BTW, I am very much pro hunt -- but not pro rudeness!

 

[martlin]

I know which pack it is, I would imagine they have paid out for damage by now, as they have in the past paid a fair chunk of compensation to me They had the brilliant idea to go straight through a 15 acre field of mine with 100 ewes around 2 weeks away from lambing... They also tried to leg it afterwards, but 2 of their hounds got stuck in fencing. They are well known in the area for causing trouble and having complete disregard for the farmers, land and everything else in their way.

 

[Houndman]

That would suggest that there are few farming members with that pack.........

 

[Alec Swan]

That would suggest that there are few farming members with that pack.........

An interesting observation! It would also prompt the question; 'Are there many Hunting Farmers, these days, or is it a case that for no other reason than 'tradition', they allow a mounted field across their land'? If I'm right in my supposition, then it behoves ALL Masters to pay attention to the Ps&Qs of their occasionally mounted rabble.

Before I'm berated for the use of the word 'rabble', there are times when it fits!

Alec.

 

[Houndman]

A glance at our membership list [Yorkshire] would suggest that at least three quarters of our members are hunting farmers and members of their families. I would also consider our neighbouring hunts to have a similar proportion based on the people I know. Our neighbour to the east I would estimate that almost all their members are involved in farming or related to those who are.