Hurdle race at Aintree.

[ QUOTE ]
I've heard people say 'if they didn't like it they wouldn't run' but these are comments from non horsey people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually feel that this is a statement that more "non horsey" peopel make than people who are knowledgable (I hate the term horsey) I have ridden all my life and all through it have come across horses that dont want to do something. Nothing I could do or anyone else did would make that horse do what it didnt want.
 
I have to say I totally agree. If a horse was so determined not to do it, then it simply wouldn't. There was at least one horse that I watched at Aintree today which simply refused to move- and none of those jockeys are amateurs, they all know their job and they are all excellent horsemen. If a horse doesn't want to- it won't!
 
1 Definatly died and 2 had to get help breathing as they were so exhausted it,s such a long way for them not to mension the size of those fences........
 
argh this annoys me, horse racing is a sport, it is not cruel, it is not horrid.... my grandad and many before him on my dads side raced, they all knew the game very well...what my grandad taught me before he died was a horse wouldnt race if it didnt want to, no matter what you did if it wasnt going to go it wouldnt.... and yes of course its horrid when a hrose collapses, or breaks its leg or back or neck or whatever, but this is the real world, we cannot wrap everything up in cotton wool, this is what happens.... death happen in every discipline of riding, youd be suprised at how many horses die from heart attacks in polo, so many come off the feild and die there and then, but it is not reported so widely as racing... take badminton, a horse managed to stake itself, a horse died of a heart attack after it... death occur in every discipline and not just racing. they try to make it as safe as possible, thos national fences are no where near as horrendous as they used to be, but these things happen, there is nothing we can do, racing is nnever going to be band, its a great sport and people enjoy it greatly.... its very annoying when people say racing is not a sport, it is, its a ver wonderful sport, which brings out the best and the worst in horses and jockeys, it tests them and itsnt that what life is all about? being challenged, enjoying it and all.....
racing is a sport.
death occur in every riding discipline, but racing is very widely covered so we here about it a lot mroe than other disicplenes.
the horses enjoy it.
laugh.gif
 
It's so true. You can argue til you are blue in the face that racing is cruel and things like this shouldn't happen. But it isn't, and they do- no one can stop it and believe me they have tried.

At the end of the day, it happens, it always has and it always will. Perhaps losing one horse is not that great a loss in the grand scheme of things- yes it's horrid, but it's also a fact of the world we live in.
 
Whoa there, I didn't say you didn't know anything - where has that come from?? I stated that a horse is in a flight situation as it is a prey animal. It runs first and asks questions later. When I said they are running for their lives I meant in the context that when other horses in a herd situation and run the others follow. Its survival of the fittest in every flight animal situation. Those that are weak or slow get picked off by predators. A horse keeps up with the other horses in its herd, or in a race situation with the rest of the group out of instinct which is what I meant by 'they are running for their lives'. They don't jump the big fences because they enjoy it although there are always exceptions to the rule. They just don't want to be left behind from the rest of the group. How come no one criticised the first few people who replied to the original posters post but they see fit to criticise what i am saying, misquote me and don't feel that my contribution is worth anything other than ridicule or worse. Yes euthanasia does go wrong in the case of Ashby Jo, and it happened to my horse horse when he was shot with a compound leg fracture so I speak first hand when I say this. I didn't watch the Grand National as I think it is a cruel race. The odds are stacked against the horses and the fences are too big. As I stated on my previous post I do not want to or attempt to try to make money on the backs of the misery of horses. That's just my opinion. This is a forum. The idea is for people to have other opinions which may differ from your own and not to get cross with people who make a contribution. Take five minutes to look at deathwatch.com and you will see how I have come to this conclusion.
 
I understand where you are coming from, but I refuse out of principle to look at sites like that... it is places like that that make people believe that everything ends that way and that everything happens that way. Sites like that are, in my opinion, just wrong- why parade the poor horse about on the internet just for the purpose of "look how cruel this is"?.
 
applecart, i will never agree that racehorses are running with the herd out of flight instinct. they carry on running (rather than stopping and grazing) because they are wound up and running on adrenalin, but not fear. a frightened horse has its ears back and a totally different expression.
a horse i was riding alone once managed to drop me and galloped off for about a mile (across parkland, fortunately, no roads or cars!) before stopping to graze, and i finally caught him, unscathed. he certainly wasn't running with the herd, or even running towards home, he was galloping for fun, and he had a whale of a time. horses love galloping. my horses at home love charging around like nutters on the slightest pretext... such as me calling them to the gate for a fuss. racehorses get to do what they love, and are pampered the rest of the time. not a bad life... until they leave it, and that is a whole other can of worms.
i agree with many of the points above. it is very sad that these things happen, but racing is a HUGE industry and is not going to be banned.
 
EE2005 - i agree on principle i will never look at that site. Its right up there with PETA and all those other OTT groups.

As for the horse(s?) needing oxygen. This is the hird time that Butler's Cabin has required O2 after a big race. In fact, I remember Ted Walsh was presenting the Irish national tv coverage in 2007 when BC was returning to the paddock after winning the race. Ted saw the horse wobble and grabbed a bucket of water and tossed it over him - giving him the shock he needed. Quick thinking on Teds part!
I wonder though, if you have a horse that consistently runs to his limit to this extent- is it time to consider reducing the distance you race the horse over? He clearly has the talent and based on his running he appears to have the stamina - but why the oxygen deprivation post race? Jonjo O Neill is a fantastic trainer and McManus is a considerate owner - but maybe its time for them to find a new niche for BC?
 
Yeah, I perhaps think that after today Jonjo O Neill might start to rethink the distances he runs him over- or so I hope, either way I think he will get a rest and be properly checked over before any decisions are made. It's what I would do anyway! hopefully we will see him again =]
 
I am very pro racing but I think having read that report that it is well rounded and a good thing. It is realistic and not asking for racing to stop unlike some organisations, but it is intelligently putting a case for the idustry to make improvements where problems are identified.

Really the industry should be doing this in a more public forum, as they do gather data on racecorse and horses in training injuries and fatalities. If any one trainer or course are experiencing problems then the industry should be taking remedial action to address this, it would be reasonalble to make this kind of thing public and would take the wind out of some of the more radical organisations sails!

There was a trainer near me years ago, that had horses in livery Yards around the area as they were overstocked (against the rules!). Most of the runners were very unfit and a lot of unnecessary injuries took place. This should have been stopped, but it was not until a horse was swapped for another that they took action!!!!!!!

I found the polytrack statistics particularly interesting. In the USA they are replacing dirt tracks with this surface due to the high instances of fatal and career ending injuries particularly when tracks are graded (scraped) for major race meetings. It is working over there with substantial reductions in injuries being reported, but they might want to hold fire on that one!

With regards that Vet bungling the destruction of that horse, his backside should have been chewed off by the Racing professional body and the BEVA, that was disgusting, stupid and I would think in contravention of the firearms regulations. There must be a training issue at the very least that needs addressing there before the dim wit shoots a member of the public or an assistant! Not to mention the fact that he caused suffering to an animal he was supposed to be helping!!!

Personally I think that it would be much better to have either a policy to use a needle on course or employ a professional knacker person at the course, they are much more skilled at using a gun to destroy an animal and it takes seconds. I would have one out any day over a vet when there are no options left, it's worse for you but quick for the horse.

Yes horses die, but I saw a very distressing thing at a livery yard, the horse broke its leg in the field. It was found several hours later by the YO, the vet took a further 1/2 an hour to arrive, horrible suffering. At least these horses are well attended and cared for whilst racing. I have seen some pretty horrendous cases of abuse by ordinary horse owners, so I am happy to see TB's put down after a racing career rather than end up like that.
 
applecart you can keep saying horse racing is cruel, but youre never going to win tat argument....
i cant stand those websites they really annoy me, so OTT and so against it, no middle way, just outright against it.
i dont beleive that these horses are running because they are with a herd, a lot of the loose horses keep running at the fron for a while and then pull up even though the "herd" are still running...???
and im sorry but im not going to look at deathwatch, its not a sight that has good reporting its too OTT and completley against it, and to report well you cant be like that.
i respect your opinions, thats your to make but what we are trying to say, is that in no way is racing cruel, the horses enjoy it... watching the grand national winner, SPRINTING home, ears pricked forwards loving it! all the loose horses had their ears pricked, obviously enjoying it, they do enjoy it, and you know about it when a horse doesnt! also yes it is very sad watching a horse go down in front of you, but that if life as i said before we can not wrap everything up in cotton wool, we cannot protect everyone and everything from the world as we made it. racing is a lovely thing to watch, and i will never beleive it is cruel, as it is not....
horse deaths occur in every disicipline. that is life. we can not change whether or not a horse has a heart attack coming down the home line. there is nothinng the organisers or anyone can do to prevent this.
racing is a lovely sport, its enjoyable, it has a great atmosphere and its a great thing to follow. if you dont enjoy it, dont watch it, dont have anything to do with it, but a lot of people appreciate and enjoy racing, and will always beleive that racing is not cruel, which it is not.
 
Personally I don't think it is the distance or the fences that cause the problems in the National but the number of horses racing. Don't get me wrong, I am not anti, I love it. I took a portable TV with me yesterday as I was out so I could watch it (mind you this backfired on me as just as they started I had to go and compete my dog. B**** timing!)
I was discussing this issue with people who do flyball with dogs yesterday and we agreed that no animal will race or whatever if they don't enjoy it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
They may be bred to do a job but they do not really have any choice in the matter. I've heard people say 'if they didn't like it they wouldn't run' but these are comments from non horsey people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell that to the jockey on the grey horse who refused to start in the hurdle race earlier in the day...
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They may be bred to do a job but they do not really have any choice in the matter. I've heard people say 'if they didn't like it they wouldn't run' but these are comments from non horsey people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell that to the jockey on the grey horse who refused to start in the hurdle race earlier in the day...

[/ QUOTE ]

I love NH racing, and there's good points on both sides here, but I just want to say not many horses have the logic, attitude, reasoning and balls required to stand up against everything that its trained to do and knows its supposed to be doing, and say "get stuffed". Horses want to please by nature and once they know what it is they're being instructed to do, for most, it takes a hell of a lot before they say "no" IME. This does not necessarily mean they're having a great time and full of the joys of racing/eventing/whatever.
 
All these people in support of this to me are heartless. i admit i have been to the races plenty of times, with my rose tinted glasses on of course, but i wish id have seen or realised what actually happens to these beautiful horses when it all goes wrong before i went. people should be educated and now it makes me sick to think we all stood there cheering on these poor horses who dont realise their life is resting on a thin line.

It has shaken me to the core and i never want to witness such brutality ever again in my life, i havent stopped crying all weekend thinking of it.

They may be treated like kings, but im sure if we as humans had the choice of being a millionnaire for a couple of years then having our neck snapped and shot in the head as a result, or just living a happy natural normal life, what would we choose?

confused.gif
 
Horses are lost in every discipline, even hacking.

Eventing, sj and dresage all have equine casualties. I do think though certainly in the case of the national, the field should be reduced

I also think jockeys should be heavily fined and disciplined if they continue on a spent horse just for the glory of completion. Certainly the one that died did look very tired at the end, it had obviously lost any hope of a place, so why did the jockey not pull it up!

Full credit to those responsible jockeys that did, some even just before the last fence, even though they were so near to completion ( a fete in itself when we are talking about the national ) they put the welfare of their horses first.
 
I also loved the parade of all the previous winners most now in retirement, but many reaching a ripe old age.

Red rum indeed was 30 when he died.
 
Another one who hates the "racing is cruel" argument.

Wonder what the stats are for the number of horses killed on the roads because their owners are too stupid to even contemplate wearing reflective clothing...
 
Totally agree with your view, racing is a fab sport and sadly yes some are lost but the pleasure they give each season when favorites reappear to defend their crowns is huge. Its not all about betting, you get to love certain horses and wait all summer to see them again and as you say when they parade following retirement it is a fantastic sight, I do question though how long some wait to retire a champion, Hardy Eustace ? odds of 40-1 are insulating to what has been a fantastic servant surley now is the time he owes nobody anything
 
Good point stats for horses who die from neglect are pretty high too these people cannot even do the decent thing and have them put down they just leave them to starve.
 
I sympathise with what you witnessed, it is really upsetting, but cannot agree that racing is cruel. I've worked for 3 trainers on a part time basis and my sister has worked in racing for many years and these horses are extremely well cared for. Of course horses want to run with the pack but this is not flight instinct - they simply enjoy it! I know mine loves to have a gallop in a group - he's never more excited. Incidentally, he is an ex racehorse who had lots of ability but didn't like racing. He never planted at the start but he never tried a yard bless him, hence, he's no longer a racehorse!


I'm sorry, but these horses are used to racing so are not reatcing every time to the others jumping off and just running in blind panic, they do it because they enjoy it. It really would not be worth the training fees, not to mention feed bills, to keep trying with a horse that did not enjoy it - those horses are never succesful

I worship my horse (as I do most of the racehorses I've looked after) and I'm certainly not heartless, but accidents happen and at least these horses are attended to immediately and do not suffer unnecessarily - they receive the absolute best of attention should an accident occur. My poor friend lost her horse (which had evented up to novice level with no injuries) to a broken leg in the field and she'll always have to wonder how long she was like it before she found her

Surely we owe it to these beautiful horses (racehorses, eventers, SJ's and hacks alike) to give them the best life we can doing something they enjoy?

Don't forget - no racing, no TB and I for one think that would be a huge loss
 
kerilli, just reading your reply to applecart and a very sensible well balanced piece it is, unlike you I did have a look at the pics taken of the botched euthenasia, what did surprise me having sadly been present at these incidents in the past the photo shows the vet aiming from some distance, this I have never seen nor would want to, in my experiences the gun has always been placed directly on the head and I have been asked to stand behind the vet or knacker man in case of ricochet, what I would like to know is wether he was bought to book about his actions, have you or anyone else reading this ever seen a shot taken from a distance I cannot quite believe it.
 
I simply can not believe the responses from those who think racing is fab, amazing, etc. It is the same excuses over and over. The horses love it (racing is the ONLY thing they know!) and other equestrian sports/pursuits have their own fatalities. I admit they do, but does eventing, show jumping or dressage, kill over 170 horses in just one year? Show me statistics that prove they do. In all my years of watching show jumping, I can think of just three fatalities (Pikap, GG Barock and Sir Arkay). Also name a riding school or owner that lost five horses in three days out hacking. And since when are the horses not forced to do something they do not want to participate in? I think I would be inclined to race if someone blindfolded me and shoved me into a tiny box. Or if a person on my back was shouting, kicking and waving a whip about. And it does not take a genius to figure out that making horses jump perilous obstacles whilst galloping at (quite literal) break-neck speeds, is cruelty. I will never know how these "caring" and "loving" owners/trainers can load their four-legged friend onto the lorry knowing there is a good chance he or she will not be making a return journey. Then again, they have no qualms about doing this when they ship the horses off to the knackers yard.
 
While your thinking about stats could you please take into account the numbers of horses in training compared to the number of horses competing in eventing etc. Ok the percentage will still be high ill give you that and yes it is more dangerous than dressage and sj Im not denying that. Im also not saying that trainers and owners "love" their horses more than Jane Bloggs with her one happy hack but please remember that in most yards its a ratio of one lad to three/four horses and these horses are the lads pride and joy (ive been a lad and my horses were more treasured than anything else in my life at that time) Again Im not saying that every lad is the same but believe me theres nothing worse than going into work one morning to find your stable empty (not always because the horse has been pts, theres retiring, going to stud etc) The owners pay for this one to one treatment and surely you wouldnt expect to pay hundreds of pounds a week for your horse to sit there stuffing its face with hay. Yes there are horses shipped off to the knackers but this has improved a hell of a lot in recent years. I know several big owners including two that would have been refered to in this post retire there racehorses to large farms where these horses live there lives out to the max. If their happy to be ridden and hunted etc then they will be given that chance if their happy to just relax in the field then that is also avaiable. Unfortunately not everyone is in this position to be able to afford to keep endless horses with no use and Im sure you would agree that a horse that would be dangerous being ridden outside of a training enviroment is better off being pts rather than being passed from pillar to post and ending up god knows where (that is why a lot of trainers prefer pts horses rather than letting them be passed along with no way of knowing how they are being treated. Ive seen far to many horses go to someone who thought they could control and handle a tb to then send it to a dealer 6 months down the line because they relised that actually it was to much horse for them and theyd rather have a quite old cob.) I really hope I havent insulted anyone in writing this and Ive ranted on a bit but I find it quite hurtfull that people feel that racehorses are treated as badly as their saying. On a final note Im only to aware that not every training yard is a bunch of roses but its wrong to sterotype an entire industry just because of a few yards that do let the side down.
 
To whoever suggested that horses should be injected on the racecourse rather than shot: Have you ever tried to inject a horse in the vein? Particularly one that is pumped full of adrenaline, has just been galloping flat out, is probably in shock, may be in an awkward position, and to top it all is in front of a large watching crowd? I am a vet and believe me it is not always easy to get a vein on a horse even in a calm situation, never mind a racecourse disaster. Added to that, for injectable euthaniasia to be effective it needs to be given entirely intravenously, if the horse moves and the injection goes outside the vein it won't work, plus adrenaline in the body can have funny effects on the drugs you give. This is why euthanasia by bullet is generally the method of choice in this sort of situation.

I haven't seen the pictures so I can't comment on that particular situation, but shooting any animal is a horrible job, and to be effective instantly you need to get the shot in exactly the right place. So, if the animal decides to jerk its head as you pull the trigger, sometimes the bullet will not go to exactly the right place. We all do our best for every animal in every situation but not everything goes right 100% of the time, and especially in a very stressful situation such as a racecourse accident things may not go precisely to plan. Also remember that in any situation safety of personnel is the number one priority - it may not always be safe to approach a very distressed horse.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top