Hyperflexion experiment (very very kind!) for everyone to try...

[kerilli]

i was trying to work out whether horses are comfortable in the hyperflexion position, and thought of a little 'experiment' to test it.
(Disclaimer - i am not scientifically minded at all so make no claims whatsover etc etc etc...!)
i tried this, and would be interested to hear what other's horses did, as my 3 aren't exactly a big sample...
horse loose in stable (or field), no tack, not even wearing a headcollar, with clear space in front and behind him/her.
take about 7 small treats (polo mint, pony nut etc) and try to feed them quickly 1 after the other, in hyperflexion position (chin almost touching chest.)
Does your horse:
a. stay happily in hyperflexion the whole time, say 20-30 secs?
b. eat a couple of treats and then stretch neck forwards or downwards.
c. eat a couple of treats and then step back to keep reaching treats but with neck out of hyperflexion position?
d. anything my horses didn't think of...?!
(if anyone is interested, none of mine were happy to stay in hyperflexion position for more than about 10 secs, they all moved backwards, or stretched neck forward, before looking for more treats.)
thoughts...? (other than that i obviously have far too much time to think about STUFF while mucking out!)

 

[KatB]

Mine gets deeper

Either that or thinks you're going to do carrot stretches between her front legs, so practically falls over herself to get there as quickly as possible

I know cos I have done lots of different stretchs and flexions with her, that being one of them!! She is too "active" to show me whether she would happily stay in one position for long where food is involved!!

 

[Bowen4Horses]

no wonder it is taking you 20 mins to muck out with the pellets...

 

[SpottedCat]

I tried this with mine, for much the same reason as you I suspect. He stayed in hyperflexion the whole time - mind you he often puts himself into hyperflexion - for example when you enter the stable or go into the field with food and he is close by. He will piaffe at the same time if he is particularly cross. I don't think he is a representative sample of the horse world though! He did also inspect his chest for treats for some time to come after this - he is not the brightest creature in the world.

 

[Weezy]

[ QUOTE ]
I tried this with mine, for much the same reason as you I suspect. He stayed in hyperflexion the whole time - mind you he often puts himself into hyperflexion - for example when you enter the stable or go into the field with food and he is close by. He will piaffe at the same time if he is particularly cross. I don't think he is a representative sample of the horse world though! He did also inspect his chest for treats for some time to come after this - he is not the brightest creature in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely ditto!

 

[ester]

will report back on the native pony = v food orientated view of things!

 

[Ginn]

[ QUOTE ]
Mine gets deeper

Either that or thinks you're going to do carrot stretches between her front legs, so practically falls over herself to get there as quickly as possible

I know cos I have done lots of different stretchs and flexions with her, that being one of them!! She is too "active" to show me whether she would happily stay in one position for long where food is involved!!

[/ QUOTE ]

This ^^^ Mine has previously learnt to bow so have to be careful she doesn't end up in heap on the floor!

 

[Nic]

Thought he was getting carrot stretches too, but in his defence he's been getting a lot of them lately!

 

[little_flea]

Not really sure that a stationary horse in it's stable can be any sort of representation of the comfort/discomfort of HF... Surely the picture is bigger than the neck/head position whilst stabled? I know dressage movement is considered to be derived fron natural movements, but I also think we can all agree to asking our horses to work under a rider in a way that is rather different from what they do in the field! (Maggie for example, usually goes to sleep flat out in the field rather than practise her half pass - which does not make me conclude that ridden lateral work is cruel and painful for her)

 

[kerilli]

sorry guys, i thought i'd killed HHO.
little_flea, i know it's not really representative, not at all the same as riding a horse in hyperflexion on the curb rein etc etc, i just wondered whether other horses responded the same as my 3, and the answer so far seems to be No, they don't!
mine are definitely not happy in that position for more than about 10 secs, then they stretch forwards or downwards out of it, or step back to evade it, and ignore the next treat to do so...
hmmmm, interesting.
clipcloppop, very funny, i do think WHILE i'm mucking out, i don't stop and stand there like a yokel leaning on my fancy shavings-fork-thingy going "durrrrr" (well, not often anyway!)

 

[Chloe_GHE]

I actually had to do something similar on the advice of my physio with carrots. To supple up I had to feed Jack carrots on his chest, by the girth, and between his front feet.

Jack finds the chest carrots tricky to do as he once broke his neck while racing (not much the poor horse hasn't broken!) he will cock his head on his neck so that it's not straight and eat a few but quite quickly moce backwards

Soap will eat them happily on his chest he has a super flexi neck but after about 5 mins he too will walk back a pace

 

[jess_asterix]

Ulrich just stays there the whole time and expects more treats from the same place when finished!

Nougat would most likely have one shake his head lots have another and so, he is so greedy and always tries to knock you out when giving him treats!

 

[chestnut cob]

K, you must have read my mind as I was thinking about this earlier. My boy had physio last week and he has to do basically carrot stretches in between his legs then bend neck sideways first to belly and then towards stifle if he can. He will reach down for the treat, if he doesn't get it straight away, he lift his head back up then comes back down again (almost like coming up for air) to try a second time. He won't stay in that position, and seems to have developed amazing extendable lips in an attempt to get the treat without having to curl up too much.

 

[CrazyMare]

I will try with my pair tommorrow.

I suspect Holz won't even try to get the treats as shes not food orientated, but Callie will probably gobble them then try and work out a short cut to getting them...i.e straight ot my pocket!

 

[kerilli]

chestnut cob, thank god for that, i was starting to think my girls were the weirdos of the horse world for not wanting to stay in that position!
i've done carrot stretches before, but never for more than a few seconds at a time, just wanted to know whether horses are happy to stay in that position for any length of time.

 

[teapot]

Am going to try this with a gobby polo loving native

 

[spookypony]

Will try this with the Spooky Pony tomorrow. Hypothesis: he'll grab the first treat, and then shift positions to try and rummage through my clothing to get directly at the treats without having to do any silly stretches for them!

 

[seabiscuit]

My old eventer ( very athletic, got up to Intermediate level eventing ) would happily stay in this position for a short while- I'm v.v embarassed to say this now (well I was a teenager !) but I used to put a carrot behind his legs, on his tummy, to make him bow and he would quite happily pop his head there and search for the carrot...I would only pop the carrot there for a split second tho, so that he would bow onto his knees, and then I could scramble onto him from the ground! He would have quite happily stayed with his head there for a good few mins.

But none of the other horses would entertain this- I think it is more to do with the fact that they were less food orientated and 'clever' in this way, and perhaps also less athletic/good in their backs?

 

[*hic*]

OK I tried this but with some modification as mine were all too keen to start looking for the next treat. I held a handful of pony nuts on their chest with my hand as closed as possible so they had to work to get a nut out. Mine were all very good - I still have all my fingers.

13.3 Section D, retired, pretty perfect weight-wise. He was the first I tried and was a bit quick to get his head up and look for other treats. When I held the handful to his chest he was quite happy to tuck his neck in and stay tucked in. He hasn't been ridden for several years now and in the seven years I've had him has never been forced into an outline - you don't "force" him to do anything, he can't cope with pressure! He is naturally built with a high Welsh head carriage and considerable muscle under his neck.

12hh Section A, in light use and will drive. Has ribs showing but always has a firm crest. Getting her head to her chest was a huge effort for her, she's never been asked to and possibly due to her crest it seems to impede her breathing and make her grunt. However, as she's never normally allowed pony nuts she was prepared to make the effort and would have stayed as long as I liked - well until the nuts ran out anyway. It didn't seem to occur to her to walk backwards but I confess that I moved my hand away until she was behind the vertical but not right in because I felt sorry for her.

Big mare - 16.3 ShireXTB. She's built upside down with a long neck. I now know that you can get her to curl her neck so much that her ears are pretty much the closest thing to the floor! Staying tucked in is just not an issue. She doesn't look as though she'd manage it at all but in fact she found it the easiest of the four.

Flynn - 16.2 KWPN (but mainly TB). Flynn has lots of neck and crest, probably due to having been cut so late and really looks the part of a "dressage horse". So I was fascinated to find out that although he can eat a handful of nuts without seeking to escape from hyperflexion he doesn't find it as easy as the big mare.

None of the four sought to walk backwards or move their heads and necks from the hyperflexed position once they had realised where the food source was. It may have helped that I did the experiment immediately before feed time, the other horses were nagging for their food and the guinea pig was the only one being fed at the time so may have felt under pressure to eat up.

My findings from a sample of only four would appear to show that horses with more bulk along the tops of their necks find it harder to hyperflex than those with less bulk above and more below. I would be intrigued to see pictures of the top-flight hyperflexed horses as youngsters with only their natural musculature.

 

[kerilli]

very interesting jemima_too, thanks.
i'm not going to try to draw any conclusions, because obviously a riderless horse being bribed to hyperflex for 30 secs is v v different to a ridden horse being put (or forced) into hyperflexion with the bit etc, but it's interesting that the ones who seem to struggle aren't the ones you expect to...
(btw, obv these stretches, done carefully, are good for them anyway, chiros and physios have suggested 'carrot stretches' to chest, girth area either side, floor between front feet etc etc.)

 

[icestationzebra]

Mine would stand on her head for food so not sure how helpful our 'results' will be, but will try it tonight!

 

[ester]

welsh D

if you are going to keep feeding me then I will stay there for as long as you like. If I closed my hand he tried to do cute welsh feed me face and nodded slightly then checked my other hand just in case! then when I stuck that behind my back went back tho the original one till I fed him again.

seriously this pony does all his 'carrot stretches' for a single pony nut though so................

 

[KatB]

Did try it more specifically yesterday. She not only stood in hyperflexion, but managed it whilst standing on 3 legs

She is very flexible though... when trying it again she did go to walk backwards, but then happily went there agan, but at first in a deeper position (anticipating other stretches).

 

[dressagecrazy]

My KWPN stood with without moving waiting for each treat he thought it was just another stretching game & even stood in the position after i had run out of treats.

I knew he would though, As he happily will run around his field holding onto the front of his rug, annoying for me but seems like great fun for him but it's definitely hyperflexion position when he does it however he is holding onto the front of the rug so it is different.
I also do loads of carrot stretches with him so he's pretty supple.

 

[SunshineTallulah]

Will try with my horse later.

However, I had to use carrot stretches awhile back and the back lady said not to bother as it was too dangerous! Horse is very bendy and a just a bit too greedy!!!

I should imagine he will try and :

a) mug me
b) step back
c) possibly eat my fingers!

 

[MandyMoo]

Monty - stayed with his nose to his chin for quite a while...seemed happy to stay there! lol

Bugsy - same as Monty really, seemed happy with it

Dani - wouldnt really bend down happily to start with, as soon as he got the treat he snapped his neck back up...but that could be because he hasnt done much schooling since being turned out for 7 months for a ligament injury - so might just be his neck isnt as supple as monty and bugsy's..

meh, but yea, that was my results

xxx

 

[icestationzebra]

Well further to my post about my horse doing anything for food - right on cue she curled herself right in and stayed there whilst I produced treats. Even after they had gone she kept going back 'down' to look for more. I can't believe this is particularly comfortable, but like anything a couple of minutes is a completely different kettle of fish to say 30-40 mins.

 

[lorainepatrick]

There HAS been a study, click the link

http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/rollkur2.htm

Hope it works.

 

[kerilli]

thanks for the link Highdale, i remember reading about it at the time, but didn't hear about the latter parts. of course, there are still people claiming that until rollkur is proved to be abusive to horses, it's fine... the end justifies the means.

 

[kirstyhen]

Henry stands with his head fixed to his chest while I buckle the front of his rug, just incase I happen to have a treat in my hand, so I'm pretty sure he would stand there for hours if I did have a treat