Hypersensitive soles?

carmoneycasper

carmoneycasper

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kinda need to explain my horses back story just so everyone understands the situation lol
My mare went suddenly lame on the 26th August on the front leg(never been lame the whole year I've had her before this), she had only been in light work that week due to weather and such. i thought maybe she had got kicked so gave her bute and left her for a week. There was no heat, no marks or anything like that. She was still unsound so i got the vet out, she said the horse could possibly have artritis but i wasnt happy with that conclusion so i took her to a equine center and seen another vet. There she got 5 xrays on her and nerve blocks. Nothing showed up on the xrays. the vet said luna went sound with the nerve blocks but to be honest i still saw a limp that day but i didnt say anything cause i was afraid i was just seeing a problem that wasnt there and surely vets know better. In the end the vet suggested i raise luna front heels. So i did all that and waited a month before i rode her again after the new straight bar shoes. She would appear sound then once i got her moving forward she would limp on the turns and going downhill. i ended up getting a back specialist out to check her over. After that she was completely sound for 2 weeks, then she went lame again, i thought maybe it was the saddle causing a problem so i rode bareback for 2 months, she still limped. so again 2 months later i took her back to the equine center and the vet done a few pressure checks on her front soles. They looked springy and very soft, so the vet said it was her soles causing the lameness so now ive got new rubber pads on my mare and shes on biotin every day to help harden up her soles, shes also stabled 24/7 in a dry clean stable but shes still not sound and i just have doubt in my mind that whats causing her lameness isnt sensitive soles but rather something in the shoulder or somewhere higher up.

so i was wondering how long does it take for hypersensitive soles to harden enough so that shes not lame even walking on a flat surface? and is there any other things i could give her in her feed to help with the soles?
 
It's often more a question of what to take out than what to put into the diet if the horse has very thin and bendy soles.

What is she fed at the moment?

Has she ever been tested for Cushings or Insulin Resistance, both can make feet very sore and many horses with thin soles have one, or both, but have not been diagnosed?

The pain will not only be coming from her soles. Her soft feet mean that her bones are not properly supported by the tissue that should be filling her feet and probably isn't there. That's possibly why you aren't certain that the diagnosis is correct.
 
cptrayes said:
It's often more a question of what to take out than what to put into the diet if the horse has very thin and bendy soles.

What is she fed at the moment?

Has she ever been tested for Cushings or Insulin Resistance, both can make feet very sore and many horses with thin soles have one, or both, but have not been diagnosed?

The pain will not only be coming from her soles. Her soft feet mean that her bones are not properly supported by the tissue that should be filling her feet and probably isn't there. That's possibly why you aren't certain that the diagnosis is correct.
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Shes fed Frasers cool mix for horses in light work but i changed to that as she wasnt in as high of work since she turned lame, she was on pegasus cool mix with the conditioning cubes and she also gets molasses mixed in with it cause shes gets joint supplements as well and wont eat it without the molasses

The vet said she didnt have cushings but her Insulin wasnt checked or even mentioned by the vet. I wouldnt know enough about insulin or its effects to even suggest to the vet lol

Oh that actually explains a lot and you possibly just explained it alot better than my vet and farrier did!


The field she was kept in has been flooded on and off for the last year due to horrible wet summer and winter we have had here in Northern ireland so my vet said it was the moisture that caused such soft soles and Luna has a habit of standing in the river alot of the time, thats why we made the decision to take her out of the field and kept in the stable from now on til the wet weather subsides
 
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OK. The first thing you need to understand is that her soles are unlikely to be "hypersensitive", they are probably just unusually thin. Even standing in a river all year should not cause the amount of lameness that you are descibing. It is nowhere near normal to be able to press into a sole with your fingers and have it move easily, even if it's a bit soggy. Can you still press them now they have dried out?

Soles as soft as that are usually caused by diet and very often by diet combined with a metabolic disease like Cushings or IR. (can I ask if your vet actually tested her for Cushings or just said she hasn't got it? ) If she is a good doer, then I would suspect IR and have her tested for it. The diet she is currently on would be guaranteed to cause foot soreness in many barefoot horses.

Also, if she has soles that are thin she will also be missing digital cushion and have a lessened strength of connection in her laminae between her hoof wall and her bones. Is she flat footed? That will cause her to feel a bit like she is wearing shoes a size too big, and allow the tendons and ligaments inside the feet to be given too much pressure. That could well cause the level and type of lameness that you are seeing.

Here's the news you won't like, sorry :( To strengthen her soles amdn her feet generally, you need to strip all the sugar out of her diet. That means no molasses. In anything. Check the white bag labels and you will probably find it in everything that you are feeding her.

You may need to soak her hay to get the sugar out of that too.

And you would be recommended to feed a supplement designed originally for people who want to work their horses without shoes on, like Pro Hoof, sold only on eBay. On top of that many of us would also recommend adding more magnesium oxide.

Basically, in my opinion you need to treat her like a horse who you want to have feet strong enough to work without shoes on. Then she should grow feet strong enough to do be shod and stay sound as well.
 
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Yes, I have endless trouble with my mare and bruised feet. A few years ago (and despite being 90% sure it was a bruised foot) I did a massive insurance claim (Rossdales, full investigation of deep digital flex tendon etc) and found nothing.

If she looses a shoe and I don't realise fast enough she can be off for moths (seriously!). The bruise usually shows for the farrier eventually.

This year has been impossible - wet ground all summer and she was living out so feet were mush - she was never sound for more than a couple of weeks at a time! Eventually got to 'last cance saloon' (she has other health problems too) and did 2 weeks of keratex then pads on (my farrier had previously been refusing - hates pads and thought her feet wouldn't stand up to it).

Anyway, she has been sound since Sept - touch wood longest period of soundness in ages - currently hunting fit although I am paranoid about pulling a shoe in the mud!
 
cptrayes said:
OK. The first thing you need to understand is that her soles are unlikely to be "hypersensitive", they are probably just unusually thin. Even standing in a river all year should not cause the amount of lameness that you are descibing. It is nowhere near normal to be able to press into a sole with your fingers and have it move easily, even if it's a bit soggy. Can you still press them now they have dried out?

Soles as soft as that are usually caused by diet and very often by diet combined with a metabolic disease like Cushings or IR. (can I ask if your vet actually tested her for Cushings or just said she hasn't got it? ) If she is a good doer, then I would suspect IR and have her tested for it. The diet she is currently on would be guaranteed to cause foot soreness in many barefoot horses.

Here's the news you won't like, sorry :( To strengthen her soles you need to strip all the sugar out of her diet. That means no molasses. In anything. Check the white bag labels and you will probably find it in everything that you are feeding her.

You may need to soak her hay to get the sugar out of that too.

And you would be recommended to feed a supplement designed originally for people who want to work their horses without shoes on, like Pro Hoof, sold only on eBay. On top of that many of us would also recommend adding more magnesium oxide.

Basically, in my opinion you need to treat her like a horse who you want to have feet strong enough to work without shoes on. Then she should grow feet strong enough to do be shod and stay sound as well.
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I cant get at her soles as shes got a rubber pad on them to help take away pressure from the soles. but last week when they where pressure tested they where VERY springy, i could see how much they moved and they peel away very easily when the vet scraped a bit off to see how soft they where.
the vet probably didnt test her and just guessed as i didnt see her do anything without her explaining to me what shes doing! it will be another month or two before i can go back to the vet as i pay for everything myself and im only in a part time job so money is tight and hard to save up for but when i next take her to the vet il be sure to ask about cushings and Insulin, at least if i mention it i cant kick myself afterwards for not saying anything!

Gonna be super hard without the molasses cause shes such a fussy eater, any suggestions as to what i could add to encourage her to eat her supplements?
The Biotin i have her on now is used on Unshod horses. these are its ingredients
Contains per 25g scoop:
Biotin 40mg
Methionine 3,000mg
Lysine 1,000mg
Copper 75mg
Zinc Oxide 700mg
Vitamin B1 50mg

Other Ingredients:
Composition: Dicalcium Phosphate, Kaolin, Glucose

And her hay is soaked already so at least thats something i dont have to worry about! She used to be on Apple vinegar too but i think its probably high in sugar too so i wont be getting her on it again. In terms of her feet shes always been bad with her feet, shes good with shoes but times her shoes have come off in the field she found walking on the ground sore and i couldnt ride her until she was shod again(i think she was shod too young and so her feet arent as tough as they would have been unshod) but other than that shes a great doer and shes out all year round.

SillyMare said:
Yes, I have endless trouble with my mare and bruised feet. A few years ago (and despite being 90% sure it was a bruised foot) I did a massive insurance claim (Rossdales, full investigation of deep digital flex tendon etc) and found nothing.

If she looses a shoe and I don't realise fast enough she can be off for moths (seriously!). The bruise usually shows for the farrier eventually.

This year has been impossible - wet ground all summer and she was living out so feet were mush - she was never sound for more than a couple of weeks at a time! Eventually got to 'last cance saloon' (she has other health problems too) and did 2 weeks of keratex then pads on (my farrier had previously been refusing - hates pads and thought her feet wouldn't stand up to it).

Anyway, she has been sound since Sept - touch wood longest period of soundness in ages - currently hunting fit although I am paranoid about pulling a shoe in the mud!
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yeah my mare is pretty bad when she looses a shoe, she can't be ridden even in our soft sand arena! she would have been sound maybe a week or two before going lame again as well! how long did it take for her to adjust to the pads when you got them put on?
 
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I agree with CPTrayes; the molasses needs to go, as does the starch. A fibre based diet is best for feet - if additional calories are needed then oil (micronised linseed preferably) is a hoof-friendly source.

I wouldn't use toxic chemicals like those contained in keratex, personally.
 
I don't really have anything to add as CP knows more than me but I just wanted to say that what she says is worth listening to :). Pads/wedges were considered for my lad but we were able to take shoes off instead and his soles have much improved. Over his previous 19 years I think he had developed somewhat a sweet tooth having been used to having molassed chaffs/beet etc and was difficult to feed supplements to when we changed all that to just fast fibre, however perseverance did pay off on that front :) (unless you try to give him any salt :p)
 
ester said:
I don't really have anything to add as CP knows more than me but I just wanted to say that what she says is worth listening to :). Pads/wedges were considered for my lad but we were able to take shoes off instead and his soles have much improved. Over his previous 19 years I think he had developed somewhat a sweet tooth having been used to having molassed chaffs/beet etc and was difficult to feed supplements to when we changed all that to just fast fibre, however perseverance did pay off on that front :) (unless you try to give him any salt :p)
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I would love to be able to go unshod with my horse but i do cross country, hunting and showjumping and alot of hacking on the roads and tough terrein so I'd be terrified that her feet wouldnt hold up for all of it and also the fact i have no clue about how to toughen a horses feet to go bare foot to begin with!

Already sourcing out some fibre based feed as we speak, hard to find around here without traveling abit away!
 
carmoneycasper said:
i have no clue about how to toughen a horses feet to go bare foot to begin with!
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Diet and work.

The diet you have been recommended may eventually make her feet strong enough if you want to give it a try, but it will improve shod feet too!

Your current biotin supplement is buffered in

glucose
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In other words. Pure sugar!

I recommend a swap to Pro Hoof which has, among other things a far higher level of copper and also yeast (which I find essential for good feet in a diet sensitive horse) and see how it goes.
 
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It is the same thing for shod though :), my mums mare is still shod but has moved on to the same diet and supplementation as my lad ... and yes the farrier has complained her feet are growing quicker ;)
 
cptrayes said:
Diet and work.

The diet you have been recommended may eventually make her feet strong enough if you want to give it a try, but it will improve shod feet too!

Your current biotin supplement is buffered in




In other words. Pure sugar!

I recommend a swap to Pro Hoof and see how it goes.
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I was afraid of that with the glucose lol cost me £48 for 5kg too! oh well i'l order some of that Pro hoof and start adding it along with whatever fibre feed i can find too, just need to get around the problem of having no molasses to encourage her to eat it! Thanks guy for the help, at least i know i can speed up the process a bit by changing things around instead of waiting and hoping she will go sound on what shes on now
 
Don't use carrots to tempt her - stuffed full of sugar too!

You could try asking on phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org about how to get her to eat it. I know it's a perennial problem that people deal with. Thankfully I have three very piggy horses :D
 
cptrayes said:
Don't use carrots to tempt her - stuffed full of sugar too!

You could try asking on phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org about how to get her to eat it. I know it's a perennial problem that people deal with. Thankfully I have three very piggy horses :D
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She would just pick the carrots out and eat them then leave the feed haha tried that one before! maybe just adding a dab of water to the feed for the powder to cling to might be enough to make her eat it all
 
Re the eating it.. firstly add it gradually, 2nd be patient!

We did have some success using a splash of apple cider vinegar, also some have used powdered mint. Frank is permitted to have some pony nuts added to his fast fibre cos he lurves them ;). Fussy welsh cob :p whereas mum's anglo will eat anything :p.
 
For disguising taste with basically no sugar, Hilton Herbs do a 5kg sack of mint (crushed up leaf, not powder) for £33 + £6 delivery. That's a sackful - my girl has it and that sack probably lasted about 5 months, so waaaaay cheaper than buying it by the little tub :D
 
I put my no sugar taste truly foul minerals in a plastic bag with Charnwood Milling Micronised Linseed. Then shake well. The minerals stick to the linseed and usually go down ok. I have also used various herbs.
 
Also concur with CPTrayes re getting shot of sugar in its various forms. If in future you want more weight or energy you should be able to achieve this with unmolassed sugar beet and the micronised linseed (not to be confused with the lozenges) yea sacc can help too.
 
Thought id update on Luna's lameness.
Today she went back to the vets after the pads failed (she got worse when the new pads and shoes went on).
Managed to find a new vet, he is pretty sure its a tissue problem and not a bone problem as the xrays show nothing to suggest lameness or even discomfort. He suggested getting a MRI scan done but said it would be expensive, which is bad news cause im broke after the last 4 vet visits. So because i cant afford a MRI he decided to try injecting her with steriods(on the invoice it was called intra-articular injections) to see if it relieves her of the pain for a while, he said this was pretty much 'guess work' as he cant see whats going on inside the leg without the MRI. When he put the needle head into her fetlocks(both front feet) ALOT of fluid came out of the main leg we suspect is causing the problem, the vet said it wasnt tacky like it should be and that alot of fluid was coming out suggesting that there is inflamation in that area. Hes guessing its between the coffin bone and Short pastern bone.
Im kinda stuck on what i should do, i should have pushed and asked about the MRI costs but he did say it was in the thousands but i was wondering if anyone has a rough estimate of how much a MRI would cost in northern ireland? im struggling to find info on it as i have no clue where to look!
 
I don't know about NI but an MRI scan over here in UK is approx £1000.

Sorry to hear about your horses lameness - my old mare has Cushings and also has serious soft sole problems atmo :( and it is a nightmare. Atmo, my mare is stabled, the vet has scraped away dead tissue from the sole and I have to keep the soles dry and paint them with Iodene to help harden them (and keep germs out).

The fact that your horse was standing constantly in the river would suggest inflammation somewhere in the hoof, and the cool water was helping to combat the inflammation and make her more comfortable - clever horse. I have seen horses with laminitis do this (not mine hastens to add) .

Have they done a normal x-ray? (sorry if I missed this)

I hope you get to the bottom of this, but from reading your posts, I think the only way you will, is to get a scan done.
 
yeah with the last visit to the vet we thought it was soft feet so i had started her on biotin, stabled 24/7 and iodine sprayed on her feet plus keratex on her hoofs and she didnt improve at all, actually got worse but now the new(more experienced vet) tested her feet and found no softness and no soreness at all so we think the last time she was checked her feet were just soft from being in the river and not the problem causing lameness.
Shes had 5 xrays taken on both front feet, both vets agreed that theres nothing wrong with the bone so thats why we are looking at the tissue surrounding the bone but we are going in blind so to speak as the MRI he quoted was nearly £2,000(including travel and other bill factors), if i could pay that monthly id do it on the spot but im not in full work and pay for myself so its nearly impossible to save that up fast enough.
I asked if it could be anything like cushing, artritis or laminitus but hes thinks there is something else going on around the tendon area that connects near the navicular bone/short pastern area but he didnt want to do any thing more without being sure of the tissue hence the MRI
 
I think it might be important to consider whether the treatment options would be any different if you had the results of an MRI anyway? For example my lad was diagnosed with reverse rotation of pedal bones and on nerve blocking DJD of the coffin joint (but no changes visible on xray). Having had videos of his movement at the time I think if we had MRId it would likely have told us that he had some collateral ligament damage too but there didn't seem much point as treatment options would have been the same.

Are the shoes + pads currently on? do you have any feet pics as others might be able to help.
 
You might find this general article about soles helpful. http://www.hoofrehab.com/horses_sole.htm

I believe sole sensitivity is most often down to dietary issues either causing inflammation of the sole corium or not enabling a thick healthy sole to grow.
Sugar content of diet (including grass and hay etc.) along with minerals, gut health other nutrients in the diet is a good place to start in general.
Here's another Pete Ramey article for starters.
http://www.hoofrehab.com/diet.htm

Metabolic conditions are also something to consider. The sole is a vital part of the structure and protection of the hoof and comfort levels are directly affected by unhealthy sole.

Doh, sorry I missed a load of posts. lol Another thing to try for mineral eating is a shallow bowl rather than a bucket to dissipate the smell.
 
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ester said:
I think it might be important to consider whether the treatment options would be any different if you had the results of an MRI anyway? For example my lad was diagnosed with reverse rotation of pedal bones and on nerve blocking DJD of the coffin joint (but no changes visible on xray). Having had videos of his movement at the time I think if we had MRId it would likely have told us that he had some collateral ligament damage too but there didn't seem much point as treatment options would have been the same.

Are the shoes + pads currently on? do you have any feet pics as others might be able to help.
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Yeah thats the another issue, im afraid to pay that money for the MRI and end up being told its unfixable, then ive spent £2,000 odd when it could have been spent keeping her and looking after her as just a companion horse as selling her isnt a option for me.

Shoes and pads are still on, due to come off in the next few weeks as the vet said they are useless right now and offer no help or support so its a waste to get them again. My farrier had said the same thing when i first got them, he didnt believe it was a sole problem but something in the leg, his first guess was inflamation in the lower fetlock and turns out he was right(and he guessed this before my second visit to the vet too)
I havent got any recent photos of her feet, we have ruled out its her soles now anyway
 
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Heres a image of where the vet said was the suspected areas(tissue areas not bone, red area) green line is where the injections where put in and alot of fluid came out of the right leg, still pretty much a large area but its trial and error at this point, we went from shoulder and pinpointed it to below the long pastern bone and now its pinpointed to these areas. He also mention that before the MRI was brought in most vets would have said navicular but now with the MRI its proved than alot of cases were not navicular but tissue damage so he doesnt want to assume whats wrong without being 100% sure.

But we have ruled out soft feet thats for sure, her feet were always kept short at the toe but never anything taken away from the heel or sole and then when i got the vets farrier to do her shoes he also said that her feet looked great in terms of shoeing and that i have been getting her done by a great farrier. I think her feet had got soft from standing in the river and as a result her feet were soft the day the vet checked them but the new vet says that it wasnt the reason she was and still is lame.

Ive already changed her diet, all sugar is cut down and she gets supplements and oils to help with any inflamation, i asked the vet about all this, he said in the long run it will be good for her so shes been a month on this new diet so i dont expect results for at least 6 months but every little helps at this point
 
Underneath the pads she's probably full of thrush too.......
I'd amend the diet to as close to sugar free as possible, work her on the surfaces she's comfy on, ideally give the hooves a break by taking the shoes off for a while or entirely.
Make sure nothing is taken off the sole or frog at trim time.
Treat for thrush.
 
Also if she's any metabolic issues there is a chance of the steroids reaching systemic circulation and causing devastating laminitis.
She is currently lame. I would try to let her short her hooves out for six months as above.....
 
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