Hypothetical legel implications following a situation out hacking?

charlimouse

charlimouse

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This morning I took my 5yo who I have had 3 weeks for a hack round the village. He has done this hack several times in company, but today was the first time on his own. When I was riding down the main street in the village I passed 2 women and 2 children, each child with a small dog on a lead who were walking along the pavement. I said 'morning' as I passed and thought nothing more of it. That was until I heard a 'flippty-flop' behind me, just as I turned the corner down the narrow single track road with no pavement. Turned round to see one of the children (with small dog in tow) running down the road behind me (child was wearing flip flops, hence the noise!), looked ahead to see a Royal Mail van coming towards me. Luckily my horse was a saint and didn't even flinch as this child and dog ran up behind me, and then stayed behind me jogging to keep up, and the van came past. The adults seemed oblivious! At this point I politely stopped and explained to the child about horses being prey animals, and told her the possible implications of running up a horse's hind end. All was fine, and we went off in seperate directions. So hopefully 1 child is a little more educated, and I know my horse is fine with children and dogs!

But, what if it hadn't gone so swimmingly? What if my horse had taken fright and bolted into the Royal Mail van? Who's fault would it have been? What if my horse had reacted by kicking out and his hoof had connected with the child? There was potential for a very nasty situation to arise, luckily it didn't!

Sorry about the typo in the title. It is suppsed to say legal, but now I can't change it!
 
Don't quote me on this, but personally I would say the fault would lie with the parent of the child.
It seems rather irresponsible to me to let your small child, leading a dog run along a road whether chasing a horse or not! :confused:

Legally though it would most likely be your fault - it's always the riders fault! :mad:
 
Don't know the answer but will be interested to see replies after having a teenager jogger run up behind my horse and round his bum the other morning. I did shout at her companion (who gave more room) that her friend was likely to get kicked if she did that again.

Only other thing I can say is that when a child ran out in front of husband's car and broke the wing mirror bouncing off it (child was OK), the policeman said we could recover the cost of repair from the child (I assume the parents) but we didn't.
 
if your horse causes damage or injury on the public highway you'll be to blame even if you may not think its fair or you feel your horse was provoked or just acted as a flight animal would.
the general public are not horse aware and the law doesnt expect them to be sadly.
to avoid long and protracted litigation and the expense of lawyers to prove this, make sure you are covered by third party/ public liability insurance.

There might be a time you're very glad you did!

I think BHS gold membership cover this.
 
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Interesting question :)

I'm not an expert on insurance but do a lot of risk assessments so I will answer based on how I would do that...

In theory I would imagine that RM could claim on your insurance if the van had been damaged if your horse had taken off and come into contact with it as in this scenario the van driver would blameless. No insurance could mean that you are personally liable. Again in theory, you could try and claim your vet fees and the cost of the RM claim from the adult in charge of the child (household insurance usually has a public liability element) but and this is a big but you would have to prove that the adult should have or could reasonably be expected to know that what the child did would cause an accident. I really couldn't see you winning that court case. It's different with car drivers as the Highway Code tells them to be cautious/give room to horses on the road so there is no defence of ignorance IYSWIM.

In reality I would think that wouldn't be any counter claims - RM would claim on their insurance/stand the bill themselves and you would claim/pay any vets bills yourself. Mainly because without being able to lay all the blame on the pedestrians there would be no point in in going into he said/she did in terms of both time and money for both insurance companies. However, if it was for instance a 'private' car owner with only 3rd party cover and an expensive repair - worst case scenario! - they could come after your insurance company for costs and I can't see that they wouldn't pay out with you having to pay the excess. They would also have to pay for any other property or street furniture that you damaged.

That's why PL insurance is essential.

If your horse had kicked the child I don't think there would be any financial cost to you as there isn't a loss of earnings and the NHS would pick up medical bills (harsh I know but just talking money here) Again worst case scenario, if the child was permanently disabled you could be liable for damages - I'm not sure about this bit but again I think it would come down to the bit about 'should have or could reasonably be expected to know' the dangers of running up behind a horse...I don't think that Joe Public could be held responsible in that case.
 
Don't worry I have Public Liability Insurance through the BHS! I thought if there had been an incident I would probably get the blame, but was wondering what other people's opinions were.
 
Nightmare

We used to ride through an estate and had to yell at the children not to run up behind the horses. Sometimes we would tell the kids the horses would bite even though they didn't to keep them at a distance.

Would it have made a difference if you had asked the mother to control the child and she didn't and then it got kicked.

Does the fact you were on a public road make a difference? What if it had been on a yard and you asked a child or the parent if present not to run up behind a horse and they got kicked?

I was at one yard and lunging a very excitable horse, he was kangerooing round, and a small child was trying to let herself into the school saying she wanted to come and play. Luckily listened when I really shouted at her, she ignored a polite request and I always wonder where the liability lies in situations like this.
 
Welcome to my world. I think the back end of a horse is like a child magnet, in the same way the headlights of your car are a nocturnal insect magnet. I have to ride through a village to get anywhere and they constantly come running up to me, on foot and on their wee bikes. Like you, I shout at them and I tell them horses bite. I'm lucky that my horse is 19 years old and is more zen-like about these things than I am. If I had a youngster, I'd cry. Or move.
 
OP, remember that there is a 1k excess with the bhs and they only pay out if you can't claim from any other policy - that includes your house insurance!

As far as liability on a yard is concerned, the responsibility is the yo's. If they have any sense they still have done their risk assessments, put up the do and do not notices and as a result, their insurance will pay out if their is an accident. A client will only become liable if they ignore the safety procedures in place or if they do something that is obviously negligent...

Visitors also have a duty to follow the rules (which should be visable) or they should be supervised the whole time they are there.

It's all about covering your &ss, you see and making sure that you and your business (and your ins co.!) are protected. If you do it right out should mean that stupid accidents shouldn't happen...
 
I was trying to leave our local beach via the only permissible route which was being made less safe by a mother kicking a ball to her son and he kicking it back. I waited quietly for about two minutes before asking politely if we could please quickly get past.

The torrent of abuse was unbelievable and I explained that in spite of the vastness of the beach, this 20 ft walkway was the only exit and would take us less than 15 seconds to pass. Apparently we all have to share the beach, which I agree with completely, but we absolutely needed to pass and they could have played anywhere on about 700 acres of sand!

More abuse followed so she got some back, I'm afraid. Stupid woman.
 
What the OP describes is a pretty typical scenario when out hacking, I'd expect a horse out in public to cope otherwise it might be putting people and motorists at risk.

Riding on the roads is a responsibility, so hacking an unreliable horse would be like a person driving a vehicle that isn't roadworthy.
 
How can hacking an unreliable horse be the same as driving an unroadworthy car !!
A car Is a machine that with some money can be made roadworthy.
A horse is an animal and the only thing that will give a young one experience and reliability is to get it out to see the world.
Common sense and courtesy seem to be traits that are now extinct in most of the human race.
 
Had a stupid child run up behind mine in busy school traffic and smack him on the bum :mad::mad::mad: parents should control their little bas.... erm offspring or not have them.


NOA
 
Ribbons - because in both situations you are taking the car / horse out despite the increased level of risk to others. Of course we need to get horses used to going out, but that doesn't mean it's fair for the general public to put up with increased risk to them when they don't have a choice in the matter. Drink driving would be a good analogy - a small amount of alcohol is considered acceptable, a large one isn't. A young or green horse would be fine up to a certain point, but if it's too unreliable or potentially dangerous, it would be wrong to take it out on public roads :)
 
Slightly off topic but the parent should not have allowed the child to walk the dog as legally they need to be at least 16 years old to walk a dog. So I would have thought there would be additional legal implications if anything happened and wouldn't necessarily feel you would have been at fault as parent should know better!
 
This nightmare situation happened to us and we're still suffering from it:

Daughter was riding Grey mare back from local dressage competion (which she'd just won). Small very narrow country road. Had to pass a house with lots of bushes and trees for boundary fence. Small child (age about 5 yo) jumps out of bushes and shouts 'Boo'. Grey mare takes fright and bolts. Man comes out of house and shouts at child. Daughter manages to get control but further up the same road Grey mare is now so stressed takes fright and bolts again. No broken bones and both seem to be ok.

Next day Grey mare is lame as now obviously had landed badly. She was lame for 3 weeks and needed physio treatment.
Bit of background history - Grey mare has unstable pelvis due to giving birth to a huge foal about 18 months before this incident. Had been treated by phsyio and was well on the road to recovery and at time of accident was winning every competition they entered.

About 10 weeks after the fall, Gery mare had 5 colic attacks in 2 weeks. Turned out she had developed ulcers. We can't prove it but we think the stress of the fall caused these.

Throughout this period she has had various physio and osteopath treatments which have really made a difference. Grey mare is back in training but is still not fully competion fit - we hope to begin in October again. That will almost be a full year. Costs for physio and osteopath are not covered by insurance as this is 'alternate treatment'.

I now wish I had gone to the house and told the parents that I was holding them liable for all damages but at the time we didn't know it would turn out the way it did. Under Dutch law we can do this and I will do if anything like this ever happens again.
 
Maybe people should be made in insure their kids as so many seem to have no control or sense of what their kids are up to. We had a 5 year ol ride his bike practically into the back if mums horse. When his father eventually appeared told him his kids where his responsibility, he just looked blank!!!!!!:mad:
 
micramadam said:
This nightmare situation happened to us and we're still suffering from it:

Daughter was riding Grey mare back from local dressage competion (which she'd just won). Small very narrow country road. Had to pass a house with lots of bushes and trees for boundary fence. Small child (age about 5 yo) jumps out of bushes and shouts 'Boo'. Grey mare takes fright and bolts. Man comes out of house and shouts at child. Daughter manages to get control but further up the same road Grey mare is now so stressed takes fright and bolts again. No broken bones and both seem to be ok.

Next day Grey mare is lame as now obviously had landed badly. She was lame for 3 weeks and needed physio treatment.
Bit of background history - Grey mare has unstable pelvis due to giving birth to a huge foal about 18 months before this incident. Had been treated by phsyio and was well on the road to recovery and at time of accident was winning every competition they entered.

About 10 weeks after the fall, Gery mare had 5 colic attacks in 2 weeks. Turned out she had developed ulcers. We can't prove it but we think the stress of the fall caused these.

Throughout this period she has had various physio and osteopath treatments which have really made a difference. Grey mare is back in training but is still not fully competion fit - we hope to begin in October again. That will almost be a full year. Costs for physio and osteopath are not covered by insurance as this is 'alternate treatment'.

I now wish I had gone to the house and told the parents that I was holding them liable for all damages but at the time we didn't know it would turn out the way it did. Under Dutch law we can do this and I will do if anything like this ever happens again.
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Bloody computer - there should be a line in to say that they fell onto the concrete road!
 
I am really not sure where you stand legally but the outcome could have been very serious for the child.I find it hard to believe that any parent would think it is ok for a child to run up behind a horse, in my experience non horsey people always think that horses bite at one end and kick at the other! I ride through a housing estate occasionally and I have made it very clear to the children that my horse will kick, he doesn't but they don't know that. They now see him and move away saying " he's the one that kicks" it works well.;)
 
Crugeran Celt said:
I am really not sure where you stand legally but the outcome could have been very serious for the child.I find it hard to believe that any parent would think it is ok for a child to run up behind a horse, in my experience non horsey people always think that horses bite at one end and kick at the other! I ride through a housing estate occasionally and I have made it very clear to the children that my horse will kick, he doesn't but they don't know that. They now see him and move away saying " he's the one that kicks" it works well.;)
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Indeed. My horse has never kicked or threatened to kick a person in her life and is as kind a soul as you're likely to ever meet, but that isn't what I tell the village children.
 
Theocat said:
Ribbons - because in both situations you are taking the car / horse out despite the increased level of risk to others. Of course we need to get horses used to going out, but that doesn't mean it's fair for the general public to put up with increased risk to them when they don't have a choice in the matter. Drink driving would be a good analogy - a small amount of alcohol is considered acceptable, a large one isn't. A young or green horse would be fine up to a certain point, but if it's too unreliable or potentially dangerous, it would be wrong to take it out on public roads :)
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But you are focusing on the road aspect of it, actually I meet far fewer children on busy roads where the traffic could be an issue.

The incidents below have happened on yards, very quiet residential areas and bridlepaths.

I'm not sure you can completely train a horse to cope with children running up behind them waving big sticks, large groups of children screaming and waving their arms at a horse to make it rear again because that was "so cool"; running into their legs with toy cars and running up behind a horse and grabbing it round the hock with both arms.

Parents response is usually "they're only children" and you get treated as a kill joy.
 
Charlie Bucket said:
Don't quote me on this, but personally I would say the fault would lie with the parent of the child.
It seems rather irresponsible to me to let your small child, leading a dog run along a road whether chasing a horse or not! :confused:
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Is the legal spot on answer

Children and dogs are the legal responsibility of the adult who should be supervising them

The only way any responsibility could be placed on the rider is if they noticed the situation and did nothing reasonable to try and prevent it escalating into an incident
 
It is essential that horse owners have 3rd party public liability insurance cover of no less than £10,000,00 (Ten million pounds). A recent court case demonstrated that this was the level of cover required. Many policies do not provide cover to tis level so check your policy carefully.
 
Why did the parents let the kid run down the road alone any ways?? Forget the horse and Royal Mail van, what if there had been a boy racer zooming along high on smoking weed (like so many of them round me) and ran over the kid and the dog? I'm a parent myself and can't believe that these morons would have let a little kid run along the road.
 
I was at one time stabled near to a comprehensive school where the kids though it was great fun to spook the horses as we rode past, so it was imperative to bombproof the horses if we wished to ride out.
I've encountered a shaken can of coke thrown from the top deck of a bus and explode in front of my horse, a football ricochet off all four legs and hit the belly of a 4 yr old DWB mare out on her first solo hack, a glass bottle thrown from a passing car and many more eventful incidences.

Not all horses have the temperament to cope with spooky things but sometimes we underestimate how far bombproof training can help a horse. The police horses during the riots were an inspiration, as were the competition horses during the excitement of the olympic games. Instead of blaming the world and his dog,for spooking our horse's, perhaps we should be looking at whether the horse is suitable to ride on roads in the first place, and if so, how we can embrace these untoward experiences to improve their confidence and reliability.
 
horserider said:
Not all horses have the temperament to cope with spooky things but sometimes we underestimate how far bombproof training can help a horse. The police horses during the riots were an inspiration, as were the competition horses during the excitement of the olympic games. Instead of blaming the world and his dog,for spooking our horse's, perhaps we should be looking at whether the horse is suitable to ride on roads in the first place, and if so, how we can embrace these untoward experiences to improve their confidence and reliability.
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Desensitisation is great in theory but what I found when I was on a yard with alot of poorly controlled children is my horse didn't get so much nervous as bad tempered with them.

It was as if they got on his nerves and the more that ran around behind him screaming the more he thought about kicking them. Moved him to a quieter yard with fewer children and he is much better with children as a result.

Plus all the incidents I mentioned in my previous post happened on bridlepaths, yards or quiet residential areas.

Of course I have full insurance but I'm not sure how much consolation that would be to the parent of a dead or brain damaged child.
 
horserider said:
I was at one time stabled near to a comprehensive school where the kids though it was great fun to spook the horses as we rode past, so it was imperative to bombproof the horses if we wished to ride out.
I've encountered a shaken can of coke thrown from the top deck of a bus and explode in front of my horse, a football ricochet off all four legs and hit the belly of a 4 yr old DWB mare out on her first solo hack, a glass bottle thrown from a passing car and many more eventful incidences.

Not all horses have the temperament to cope with spooky things but sometimes we underestimate how far bombproof training can help a horse. The police horses during the riots were an inspiration, as were the competition horses during the excitement of the olympic games. Instead of blaming the world and his dog,for spooking our horse's, perhaps we should be looking at whether the horse is suitable to ride on roads in the first place, and if so, how we can embrace these untoward experiences to improve their confidence and reliability.
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This is great in theory but my cob still jumps away when I open the gate to his field which he has been in for 5 years as it makes a squeek! Don't think he would ever be 'bomb proof'. Saying that he is fantastic in traffic including lorries, buses and tractors.
 
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