rextherobber
Well-Known Member
Poor you - hope its not too painful. I think it's worse when a "nice" horse does something like that, mine was a witch, so you were always dodging hooves or teeth ( she's an angel now though, just needed to relax!)
I’ve Found Sarcoids on Dex, What Do I Do?
- Thread starter AShetlandBitMeOnce
- Start date
Wizpop
Well-Known Member
A friend that I stabled with, used Sarcex on her big horse who had sarcoids- it really seemed to work! One even grew rapidly before it just dropped off one day! None came back in the same place either.SarcEx from Global Herbs will do no harm - could well be an immune response to stress. Mine had two on his sheath, which have dropped off completely (he's on SarcEx). Just keep an eye on them for now and take photos. Mine took about 10 months to go, a vet did look at them.
[PICTURE] Sarcoid on sheath
My horse has two small sarcoids on his sheath - these have been examined by a vet and we were referred to Dr.Knottenbelt who has confirmed they are sarcoids and has prescribed Liverpool cream. Considering where they are, we are going to have to also sedate my horse, who is a sensitive soul at...forums.horseandhound.co.uk
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear about the kick. I find this interesting considering the dealer said he handles well. Which got me thinking and might give some helpful insight for you - here in ireland, the horse industry is fairly male dominated, rather than female like the uk. I’ve noticed the handling of horses here by men tend to be very matter of fact. Its the way they handle all livestock, whether it be a bull, cow, sheep - there’s no treating them as ‘pets’ - so no talking to the animals, or giving comforting fusses/itches, or much eye contact etc - very much approach with a conviction of ‘getting a job done’ - like a stoic attitude. I think the horses, especially, pick this up - this inherent firm but fair attitude these guys have, and just comply with what is asked.
My OH is similar, although he does fuss mine, adores their quirky individual personalities, but when he handles them to do whatever, he doesnt handle them like me, chatting away, eye contact, laughing/giggling!
He just approaches to do whatever is to be done.…and they always comply (hes novice!) - so i learnt this from him and the men here, to adopt a more direct, matter-of-fact attitude with handling that is/had become tricky. Sometimes all it takes is an attitude change in us for an animal to change its behaviour towards us. One of these instances was foot lifting in our young gelding, and when i asked OH to do it too, to see if the gelding altered his behaviour, and saw he lifted his foot fine, a lightbulb moment happened, when after thinking about it, we both physically asked the gelding to do the same thing, using same body posture ask, but our attitudes were different. (I saw it as an ‘issue’ to resolve, it stressed me, OH didnt )
It also leads us to consider how much emotional projection animals pick-up on/react to - altho’ thats more difficult to prove objectively, the change in behaviour depending on handler gives some credence to the theory. (A study revealed they can hear our heartbeat, so know if its fast and we’re stressed)
I have actually left a neutral handler and vet with my horse who i thought might be tricky to deal with, as i didnt want my attitude to influence the scene, and everything was fine.
Horses have taught me an awful lot about myself - some of them can mirror so well. When i altered my methods and attitude, relaxed my feelings, the tricky young gelding became much easier to deal with. He especially is a natural ‘conduit’ for stress release in ANY situation, rather than the mare, so anyone stressed around him, he’ll show it.
I dont like to gender generalise with subjects, but this horse handling subject is one where ive personally noticed a difference (on average) between handling methods/attitudes between males and females towards horses.
Most livestock vets here are male too, and they dont ‘greet’ the animal, stroke - even for things i think potentially could be tricky because the horse hasnt experienced this before, they just approach the animal, no eye contact, ask animal to move if needed, touch - and horse just stands there, fine with it. (Except true pain response)
Middle-ground is somewhere i prefer - the horse is likely being more honest with the soft handler that he doesnt like this and that and just wants to be left alone to eat! Whereas with matter-of-fact handling the horse is less likely to express its truest feelings about a thing and comply with all reasonable requests (unless it induces physical pain, then handler-type mostly is irrelevant.) I am playful and very silly with them when we’re all relaxing together playing in the field, but when something has to be done, im centred, stoic, calm and fair-firm.
Hopefully some of this will help give confidence with Dex. He’s a beautiful boy, you struck lucky!
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
A stuffed glove on a stick could be useful to get him used to having his hind legs touched. I've had success using one in the past. You're safer and the horse is rewarded for standing and tolerating his legs being stroked (fairly firmly, not tickled) by stopping the stroking.
It's just a stage. My now senior 22yo mare was like this with me as a 2yo when I got her, I had to get the breeder back out to help me with her. She was just playing me up, and it was soon sorted. She's been a dream to handle ever since.
It's just a stage. My now senior 22yo mare was like this with me as a 2yo when I got her, I had to get the breeder back out to help me with her. She was just playing me up, and it was soon sorted. She's been a dream to handle ever since.
Barton Bounty
Just simply loving life with Orbi 🥰
I think its flour and salt mainly
Barton Bounty
Just simply loving life with Orbi 🥰
Aww bummer! Hope your ok
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Keep going, it will be ups and downs for sure. I would just monitor for now, maybe feed SarcEx (never used it myself but have heard others say they think it helps). I reckon the kick is just part of a baby going through learning.
Hugs! It is hard!
Hugs! It is hard!
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Thank you, he is absolutely ok with his legs being touched all over, it's just the off the ground bit/ I'm going to try with a leadrope around to ask him to pick it up off the floor so I don't have to be so close.
The dealer said ''he has had little handling' when I asked if the vet had got hands on when vetting, so the story changed slightly between purchase and when I mentioned the sarcoids - and little handling fits with what I have experienced. I had a lady out to see him who is very softly softly and she was super helpful, but I have since found that somewhere in the middle helps otherwise he would quickly become a thug. He definitely isn't silly.
It's not too bad thankfully, it has a sizeable bruise and will ache tomorrow though! It was just a cow kick from a baby who wasn't comfortable with what was being asked really so thankfully no malice in it.
Barton Bounty
Just simply loving life with Orbi 🥰
Its all just baby learning, as long as you corrected him straight away all will be fine!
He is very smart and a quick learner , he will soon her the hang of this human thing
He is very smart and a quick learner , he will soon her the hang of this human thing
doodle
Well-Known Member
I also wouldn’t say anything. Similar happened to me. New horse developed a sarcoid on his nostril just after I got him. I was sure it wasn’t there when I bought him but questioned myself. The vet was there for jabs and was all set to use Liverpool cream. I said no as he was new, young and an ex racer who I didn’t want him head shy so we agreed to monitor. I gave him sarc-ex. By the second tub it had gone. He never got another.
Pinkvboots
Well-Known Member
One of mine has had sarcoids appear really suddenly usually after a lameness or a colic I put him on a good multi vitamin supplement and get a few things to boost the immune system, I've used aloe vera in the past and luckily all of his have just gone on there own.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
He has been on aloe Vera since he arrived to try and stave away ulcers after the journey, I would be interested to find out what else you fed though if you’d be happy to post or PM?
ihatework
Well-Known Member
They can pop up quite quickly especially on young horses under stress. Personally I wouldn’t make a deal with seller/vet. I also wouldn’t put anything topical on them. An immune type supplement probably wouldn’t hurt (but equally might not do anything).
Pinkvboots
Well-Known Member
I feed the progressive earth supplements pro balance range mainly.
I don't put anything on them I previously have just left them alone and they have gone after a few months.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
Honestly - if you paid for a vetting that included hands on - I would expect that to be done or it recorded on the notes that said 'horse not handleable' .
I would probably contact the vet to discuss the finding - you paid them not the dealer for the vetting.
But the question is what you want to do- if you want a refund you likely have to send him back - which given he sounds like he is from a dealer is probably possible.
Do you want to do that?
I would probably contact the vet to discuss the finding - you paid them not the dealer for the vetting.
But the question is what you want to do- if you want a refund you likely have to send him back - which given he sounds like he is from a dealer is probably possible.
Do you want to do that?
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
He did come from a dealer, he buys some foals and raises them in a herd as well as having them come and go as adults.
I’ve gone with the ‘it is what it is’ approach. I don’t have the inclination to go legal, dealer doesn’t want to know and I can’t prove he arrived with them, I wasn’t at the vetting so can’t prove anything there either. I was under the impression he was well handled, so the unhandled comments on the vetting was a bit of a surprise but life is too short. I could send him back and have another horse arrive that has KS or arthritis… it’s just horses, buying always comes with risk and I fell a little foul. He’s so far good in all other ways so I just have everything crossed that they either go away or just cause no issues.
SEL
Well-Known Member
Looking at how he's developed in just a few weeks on your other thread I think there's a fair chance of stressed immune system. He looks quite tucked up on your first photo and has really unfolded on the recent one.
Not all vets are as confident handling horses as we sometimes expect. I had one for vaccinations who was so stressy she wound them all up and I've had to ask not to have her again. I could absolutely see her saying mine were unhandled!
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
I agree with this. Also there is a difference between well handled for a horse of his age and experience and well handled as meaning a mature competition horse.
My Jay-Man passed his vetting but the vet told me not to buy him as he was very... can't remember the word, but it meant naughty! Dex was in a new situation, with a strange man doing new stuff, so I would expect him to have been a bit green.
I also think that, as you didn't notice the sarcoids for a while, they may well not have been there.
As far as the dealer thing goes, I suspect you could return for a refund, in law, although I'm not sure if that would be easy, especially if he was bought from Southern Ireland. I think your current approach is the most sensible. He is an absolutely gorgeous horse.
As far as reducing stress is concerned, I think that, especially at his age, I would find him a field companion. I do individual turnout myself, but wouldn't have a young, non ridden horse in that situation, as I think the hands on riding and training adds a dimension of touch and give and take type demand. It is a kind of banter between us. It doesn't totally replace a field companion, but I think it adds interest. I don't think a spot of grooming is enough, and I feel 4 is the earliest I would consider having a horse on individual turnout, and even then, only if he were doing something training wise. Reducing stress may be key to the immune system and sarcoids resolving.
Apologies if he already has a field companion, but he always seems alone on the videos you have shared.
southerncomfort
Well-Known Member
My boy developed a sarcoid the year after I bought him. I think that the change of lifestyle was more stressful for him than I realised.
Other than using sarc x, which didn't do anything, I largely left it alone. Was surprised to realise recently that it's completely disappeared.
So I do think that early sarcoids brought on by stress have a good chance of clearing up on their own.
I wonder if any studies have been done in that area.
Other than using sarc x, which didn't do anything, I largely left it alone. Was surprised to realise recently that it's completely disappeared.
So I do think that early sarcoids brought on by stress have a good chance of clearing up on their own.
I wonder if any studies have been done in that area.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
That's interesting, you wouldn't think a vet would be routinely nervous. I'm not sure this guy was as he was an old school, big Irish bloke but I did realise that whilst he may be handled, he won't have been vetted before so I didn't question 'unhandled' on the vetting after the initial surprise. Some horses have a natural dislike of the vet too.
He is currently on individual, you're right. I was sold paired turnout when I called the yard about the space as I am also not keen on individual, especially for a youngster, but then shortly before I arrived the lady I was supposed to be sharing with decided she didn't want her horse out with Dex as hers is early 20's and she didn't want him to be accosted which is fair enough. So he is now out with the other old man in a pair. There is a pair of mares, then two other pairs of owners with two horses who are bonded, and then one other horse that can't be turned out with others - so I don't really have any other options, but I can raise it with the YM and see if there might be something but none of the fields are big enough for three horses either as set up for pairs.
And you'll be thinking that I need to then move, but this yard is honestly gold dust and usually has a 2yr waiting list! My area has no yards apart from small private ones attached to someone's house so unless you know the owner, no luck there. The next closest yards are then a 20mile+ journey each way, or there is one other part livery yard locally but it's over double my current livery and they also have individual turnout. He does have neighbours both sides which he grooms over the fence sometimes, but I know that this doesn't make up for it.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
That is a bummer, re: individual turnout and lack of nearby yards. It's probably worth trying to sort something out with your YO/other owners when you can. 2/3 years old is such a vital age for learning adult social skills. My old horse was on individual turnout from age 2-7 due to moving from her breeder's barn to her previous owner's private property, where she kept two horses in separate drylots. I bought her and winged her into a herd. It became apparent that she had clue how to relate to groups of horses and cause havoc. I gave it a year, hoping her social skills would improve. They did not. She spent most of the next 20 years on individual turnout, which I thought was sad. She'd mellowed enough by age 26 to be a pair, so the last two years of her life were really nice since she had a field buddy.
I also think youngsters are easier to handle and train when they can blow off silly energy by 'horsing' around with their mates.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
He was out in a small herd from weanling to a 3yo so hopefully he will have learnt something then. The only possible solution I can think of that the YM could suggest would be with another horse that is inclined to have tendency towards separation anxiety, and the last thing I want to do is create that problem as it's something I cannot bear - not to mention then the current buddy would then be alone, or they would have to rip up post & rail fencing to create another bigger field. He has hooleys up and down the field with his neighbours and grooms over the fence. He doesn't hang at the gate, bother horses coming past, stress, call, pace the fence line, not want to come in/go out, pull towards other horses, no vices in the field, happily stands in the yard on his own with no other horses in sight - so he seems to be okay for now, if that changes then I will have to cross that bridge then.
I know it's not ideal, I try to be the best owner I can be, but I can only work with the options I have available to me. I can't have him 20+ miles away as I work long hours and I would end up not seeing him for most of the week when he needs consistent handling/training (Jacob was on DIY 21 miles from home), I won't have a youngster on restricted turnout which cancels a lot of yards, I can't do DIY due to work (but there aren't many around me anyway), and I can't afford £1000+ which cancels the only other part livery in the area (which is also individual). So, unless I sell him or send him away, there isn't a whole lot I can do.
Dexter
Well-Known Member
Turn him away for a while at youngstock livery while you sort something? A 3yr old on individual turnout in a small paddock is not only asking for trouble, but its incredibly sad. While it feels lovely that he trots over to you, that just highlights how much he needs company.
JBM
Well-Known Member
Dex seems content and happy to me
You’re doing great with him and providing the best you can with him. I’d imagine with his condition change and tlc those sarcoids will go away again as people have said they’re common for young horses especially after a stressy move like that! But he’s coming on leaps and bounds
Hollylee1989
Well-Known Member
Have a talk to clare Ellam on Facebook, she designed a product called radiance gold. Initially it was for gut health, but owners have came back and said it's helped with sarcoids, no idea how it helps but the before and after photos are great.
Quigleyandme
Well-Known Member
My steel grey foal broke out in juvenile papillomas all over his muzzle when he moved to my place and he’d only travelled from West Meath to South Sligo. He also had quite a few abscesses over a few months and ate my other horse’s dung. The H&HO community were very helpful and reassuring and everything resolved well. There’s handling and there’s Irish handling as PurBee has already advised. When I told the breeder of my weanlings I couldn’t get a hand on one of them he came over and herded him into my cattle race and squashed him between a wall and a gate until I got a head collar and lead on him. It wasn’t unkind. It was effective, efficient and safe. I have two middle aged rescue donkeys that are demons with their back legs. My farrier carries a blue rope fashioned into a halter at one end and ties them up really short to a gate and when they realise they’re beat they just give in and let him trim their hooves and nobody gets stressed or hurt.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
This is called learned helplessness and I would say it's extremely stressful to treat a flight animal this way. And unethical and unnecessary except in a veterinary emergency.
MuddyMonster
Well-Known Member
Yep. And not all of them 'learn helplessness' or break their spirit as mine can attest (before I got him, I hasten to add) and just get messed up mentally & physically.
Can't say I blame him at all for not learning helplessness (in fact, bloomin' good on him I say) but I've had him over a decade and still can't tie him up for vet's, farriers or any treating professional as a result. It took long enough to tie him up at all! And absolute good luck to you if you try to up your ask to 'make' him do something.
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Quigleyandme
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your concern and judgement but I would not allow an animal in my charge to be damaged by any treatment they received here. These donkeys came with slipper feet and lice from a sanctuary and are now in much better shape. They are lightening fast with their back feet and give no warning. One got me in the face the first and last time I tried to lift a back foot and I was lucky not to lose any molars. They are over twenty two years of age, they don’t actually have passports so I only have the sanctuary’s word on that, and they were lucky enough to come to me at the end of April so I’m not responsible for their lives prior to that. When my farrier tied them to the gate prior to trimming them, they leaned back, realised they weren’t going to get away and submitted calmly to the trim. There was no stress, sweating, shaking or fighting. Afterwards they stood around him while he did their mate and the horses. The dozens of miserable, neglected, verminous donkeys kept around here for the subsidy should be so lucky.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
From your defensive reply you missed the bit of my post which said "except in a veterinary emergency", which what you are describing was.
I would add, though, that stress in a horse is very often not visible.
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I would add, though, that stress in a horse is very often not visible.
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