i am at my wits end and its not even about my horse

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toomanyhorses26

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Cut a long story short but I bought and sold a little tb last year - he was a random purchase that I didnt see before he arrived (i know !) really chuffed with him in every respect - v chilled and grown up for his age and quite a character . Our issue though is shoeing - it is just horrendous :( He rears,he cow kicks,he pulls back and is just generally crap - he messes about through out the whole shoeing process but is worse to be nailed on and finished. I changed farrier after his first shoeing with my previous one as I felt he was too hevay handed with him and didnt give him a chance to my current one who is quite frankly brilliant and would quite like to keep him in one piece. We have tried so many things - bute,bridling,sedaline,shoeing fronts and backs seperate,twitch,shoeing on carpet,supercalm sachets and probably more . We try and stay as calm as poss and give him plenty of regular breaks but no improvement . The farrier has tried this morning for nearly 2.5 hours to get a set on but we have had to leave him just with two fronts after he cow kicked me in the ribs and caught the farrier on the leg. We havent got the right surroundings to go barefoot unfortuantely and I am getting to the end of my knowledge the only things I feel we could try is hoof boots and have the feet trimmed (we can just about do this),glue on shoes or IV sedation . I dont really have any expireience of this and am looking for some advice if anybody has any :( sorry this is all a bit garbled but feeling rather defeated :(
 
Sorry you're having so many problems with you horse.
Have you tired banging round his feet with a hammer, and "filing" with a rasp yourself, without the farrier there?
If you haven't, it is well worth asking said farrier for an old rasp so you can "practice" getting the horse used to the sensation gently, and also tap round the hooves daily with a hammer- it is often the feeling of the banging/filing sensation the horse may object to rather than what the farrier is actually doing.
I have done this many times with success, but if the horse has been beaten in the past by a farrier, it is something they take a long time to overcome,and sometimes just the smell of the farrier can scare them(in which case if farrier comes to shoes other horses, tie the problem one nearby so he can see/smell what is going on,and ask the farrier to give him an apple or carrot just so he gets desensitised, but isn;t having the feet actually even picked up)
Good luck.
 
thanks for the reply. When he first arrived he was overly sensitive about handling his feet and with months of tapping etc he will now pick his feet up 99% of the time absolutley no probs. He is quite a confident cocky little character and hassles the farrier for treats etc - doesnt seems afraid or shy of him at all. Always a bit wary about giving him food as a distraction as he is sedated for shoeing currently.
 
My cob used to be like this, he had always been Ok if a little nervous and then for no apparent reason refused to have anything to do with it. It got to the point that when we were having our house roof replaced he wouldn't even walk past the roofers as they wore farrier type aprons!

We sedated VERY HEAVILY with ACP. I find it more effective than Sedolin. My blacksmith was very patient with him and gradually we reduced the sedation. He now stands tied up on his own with no problems.

Do you really have to have back shoes? I have a TB with not brillant feet, we have dry sandy soil and stony tracks and he manages OK.

I noticed with my Cob that he got worse as the shoeing session went on so initially getting 2 shoes on is a start?
 
Is he ok with you handling his feet, picking out etc? If not them maybe more gentle work on that until it isn't such a big deal to him?
If he is fine with that then what is his hoof wall thickness like? If it is thin (and it is quite common on shod horses, particularly those that are more often shod from a younger age like many tbs) then it would be very hard for the farrier to place the nails so that they get enough purchase to keep the shoes secure, but keeping them far enough from the white line so as not to nick the horse. If he is a sensitive soul too then it only makes it harder! Even if your farrier is super, if it has happened once or twice then I'm sure your boy will have been smart enough to work out the link to the discomfort/pain is the shoeing.
I would def consider hoof boots, I would hate to have to have such a battle or consider iv sedation just to get a set of shoes on. OH mare has them infront and we were a bit anti trying them as thought they would be a pita and affect her way of going. I wish we had tried them sooner as she is happy to have them tugged on and off (I think you would have trouble finding a more sensitive mare!!) and her way of going is excellent in them. We got them from here http://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/D/Hoof_Boots-(Hoof_Boots).aspx They have loads of info on boots in general, how to measure and a sizing chart for the different types of boots - just go for the ones that fit the dimensions of your horses hoof the best.
 
You didn't say if he is hot shod or cold. Maybe its the smell of the hot shoeing. Its not a pleasant smell. I agree with Spottyappy about getting some practice in and build up.
 
he came to me without back shoes and within a couple of days being ridden was very foot sore - really does have the stereotypical tb feet although they are better than they were . Today is the first time we have had to abandon shoeing as he was just getting too dangerous - cow kicking out at the farrier when he was just standing by his van let alone when he came any closer. Is ACP in a tablet form ?
 
My lad wasn't brilliant with the farrier (he is only a baby and I dont think he'd been hot shod before or had a bad experience) but he was afraid of the sizzling noise (I was considering bringing a BBQ and some bacon down to desensitise him) :rolleyes: He's on shoeing #4 with me and he finally accepts it, although its with lots of encouragement and 'good boy's when he stands still. Is it genuine fear/confusion with your lad or is he trying it on?

You may just have to do something with him every day as another poster said. Or just don't shoe him at all, I think you would be surprised with the right management and feeding how good their feet can get. Just do your homework or someone is likely to get seriously hurt :(
 
I really dont know whether its fear (doesnt shy away at the beginning but gets more stressed has he goes along) or like you say trying it on - he was only cut at the beginning of his third year (about 6 weeks before he came to me) and is a bit larger than life. I cant think how to describe this but he is a bit thick when it comes to being corrected - my other tb merely a raised voice and he backs off but with Rio its a bit more like a goldfish brain rather than an equine one :P three seconds and he has forgotton what you have just done :D
 
I have been going through this with my mare. Bought last year, turned out to have navicular syndrome and a nightmare to shoe. Perfect manners with everything except the farrier. Backs were the worst.
To keep farrier in one piece, (I changed farrier too, as first one was too heavy handed with her as well- and she was scared. The smell of a farrier was enough to make her start snorting and show the whites of her eyes.)- I had the vet attend to IV sedate her. Sedalin had made her worse, but IV sedation enabled her to be shod, as barefoot wasn't an option.
A year later she is much better. For the last 3 shoeings she as had Domosedan gel, a new product which dissolves under the tongue. I give it to her 30 minutes before she's shod and its worked really well.
Also found that giving her bute the night before and again the next morning has helped as I felt it had to a pain related issue. She is currently having her backs left off as this was her main objection, in an attempt to get off any sedation. She has improved enormously and today she's being shod by one of the country's best farriers while in hospital, so it'll be interesting to see how she goes with him.Hoping we'll be able to give up on sedation now completely.
Bit of a ramble, sorry, but the Domosedan, bute and a patient farrier has enabled her to co operate and she's no longer the complete nightmare she was. Bless her white socks.
 
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ACP is in tablet form, I cut holes in pieces of apples and used to feed 10 tablets about 1/2 hour before the visit.
He was also suspected of having some form of navicular and now aged 23 he has very bad side bone, he still stands like a lamb. He can be seen wincing slightly when nails are being banged in but doesn't move.

It sounds like it will be a long haul for you - for me the ACP worked as it just seemed to reduce his anxiety (and ours!). If your horse doesn't behave like this in any other situations it sounds like genuine fear/pain rather than naughtiness.
 
I had exactly the same problem with an ex racer. Only thing that worked was to put a chifney in his mouth and give it a tug every time he reared. Rearing in any sense is very dangerous, especially if you are standing directly in front of him (to your coust as you found!) and with a farrier under him; make sure you always wear a hat when dealing with a rearing horse.

To be honest it ws just perseverance that worked. The horse never was truly easy to shoe, always still reared and couldnt be tied up, but the chifney made it easier to handle and a little less dangerous. Our farrier also shod him on the grass so that he didnt break up his foot loads when jumping about without a shoe on. Only use a chifney though if you are experienced using one - they can do damage in the wrong hands. If unsure, use with a headcollar and clip to both the headcollar ring and chifney bit so that you cant over use it. And make sure the horse is tired when you have him shod, a good gallop round the fields before you have him shod should help.

Hope this helps!
 
Ok here is a radical thought - I have just bought a fantastic dvd on leg restraints from Horse Problems Australia

http://www.horseproblems.com.au/leg_restraints_training.htm

Basically you teach horses to have restraints on their legs, which can turn problem horses into the farriers favourite

I am going to use these techniques on a flighty polo pony, as if she ever got tangled up in something she would kill herself to get free

I am also going to use it on one of my older horses that are great to handle, but see the farrier as a 4th leg, which is no good for the farriers back.
 
My 4 yr old hasnt been shod yet, but he's a plonker with the farrier. he's completely sane for everything else, but is a nightmare to be pared. I'm dreading having him shod, at least i've gotten some info from this post.
Really hope you get sorted!!!
 
I wouldn't despair. My youngster is great to handle, but hates the farrier. He is currently being vet sedated and we will do this a couple more times, hopefully then we will move to demosedan and then nothing.
Why don't you try demosedan gel, it is cheaper than full on sedation and you may only need it a few times. Personally if they are really anti farriers then I think sedalin/acp won't touch the sides, but what works with one may not work with another and vice versa.
 
My tb was this bad when shoeing.
he was given a cocktail of iv drugs.

He was lovely ans quiet then!

yes it was expensive but i saw the same vet each time and she gradually reduced the amounts.
We then when on to sedalin and gradually reduced that.

Now he is very good, without anything.

hes not perfect, sometimes he can get a little fidgety buy its nothing major and i dont even have to hold him!
 
I shall watch this thread with interest as the mare we are buying is difficult with the farrier. She was done last time without sedation, just a calmer, a very understanding gentle farrier and lots of fuss and treats. But I am worried about when she next needs to be shod, she currently has just front shoes and is trimmed behind.

We are picking her feet up regularly, and she picks them up willingly but isn't great at standing still on three legs. She seems not to quite understand that she needs to stand still when on three legs and will try to move, or will just snatch her foot out of your hand, she doesn't kick or rear.

She is nervous of the farrier, just when he turns up, in fact she looked pretty nervous when another horse on the yard was being shod outside her stable but I think that actually balancing on three legs is more of an issue.

I'll watch this thread with interest for hints and tips!
 
I would still rather train than drug them as a resolution

Literally you just have to regularly use leg hobbles for short periods, so they can fight the imaginary farrier, realise they cannot win, accept the situation and become the best horse to shoe

This technique also means if you horse gets stuck in a fence or a gate, they accept the situation, rather than rip and tear to get free and you can rescue later. Its used more in Oz routinely, as basically if they get stuck in wire it can take a long time to find them and this is a life or death training method
 
Berkshire123 said:
I had exactly the same problem with an ex racer. Only thing that worked was to put a chifney in his mouth and give it a tug every time he reared. Rearing in any sense is very dangerous, especially if you are standing directly in front of him (to your coust as you found!) and with a farrier under him; make sure you always wear a hat when dealing with a rearing horse.

To be honest it ws just perseverance that worked. The horse never was truly easy to shoe, always still reared and couldnt be tied up, but the chifney made it easier to handle and a little less dangerous. Our farrier also shod him on the grass so that he didnt break up his foot loads when jumping about without a shoe on. Only use a chifney though if you are experienced using one - they can do damage in the wrong hands. If unsure, use with a headcollar and clip to both the headcollar ring and chifney bit so that you cant over use it. And make sure the horse is tired when you have him shod, a good gallop round the fields before you have him shod should help.

Hope this helps!
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Perfect example of a chifney being used incorrectly. Bet your horse is well behaved now because its mouth has been pulled to shreds? Lovely. You could have cross tied the horse and then put a set of hobbles on which would have been less traumatic for all who where involved. I know how dangerous having a horse that rears in hand is - and have the dents in my head to prove it. And IMO that was entirely the wrong way to go about settling the situation.

OP - you say you don't have the ground to go barefoot. Going barefoot is not a 1 day long miracle recovery. It takes perseverance. And a great deal of time in some cases. And at the way your horse is reacting I'm surprised you haven't considered it in greater detail. Your horse is clearly frightened of something and/or in pain. MAYBE instead of forcing the horse to have shoes on....examine the possible pain source? Or it is purely fear and is behavioural - in which case, how is the horse when you are handling its feet and legs otherwise??? Perseverance through handling.....????
 
Been here got the t-shirt, now have a horse that is perfect to shoe.
I would get your vet to give him intravenous sedation before he is shod.
Practice desensitising your horse yourself, banging on his feet etc as your farrier would do.
Invest in some groundwork lessons.
Put him on Farriers Formula or similar to improve the quality of your horses feet.
It will take months but eventually you should end up with a horse that is well behaved to be shod and has decent feet.
 
IV sedate a few times, then Sedalin and eventually nothing, worked for me :).

I did have to change to a more patient farrier who used to come and put fronts on one week and then come and do backs the week after. To attempt a full set would just blow his mind.

It was a while ago now but I think it took about 18 months for him to be completely fine about being shod.

It was well worth the effort as I had a happy horse, a happy farrier and I was stress free :).
 
Just reiterate he is now not my horse so I cant make any decisions for him as such I can only advise his new owners. He is sound when ridden and no obvious lumps,bumps,heat or tenderness in normal circumstances. Owners have spoken to vet who advise to givebute before shoeing to see if it helped - tbh no real difference - and then if the owners wanted he could be taken in for x rays etc to see if anything showed. The difficult thing is he is happy for his feet to be picked out, tapped etc so its something to do with the actual shoeing process. I have had a year of being kicked ,stood on and very close to ending up in a and e so I apologise if I seem bit tetchy. He has been handled in my mind consistently and with perserverance in the year he has been at the yard and I do take offence to the fact that people appear to think otherwise. Thank you for the link on leg restraints - will look into that with more detail and have another talk with the owners to see what they wish to do. I do realise that barefoot is not a quick solution and needs time etc but the yard he is currently at from doing a bit of brief reading isnt the most suitable. He came to me with terrible feet - cracked ,splayed and un balanced and they have improved massively with the shoeing he has had. Will talk to vet about the acp and domesdan gel and ask their opinion. Thanks again for all opinions and will hopefully get a solution
 
i would IV sedate for few times, and also get your farrier to cold shoe in pairs. So one week fronts, then then next month backs. We had a horse who had had just one pair of shoes on in his life and they were shoved on by a welsh hill farms. he was a nightmare, but we managed to get him perfect with perseverance and a great farrier. hot shoeing is scarey if he has not got used to it. And to be honest if he has had a bad farrier he may well have been burnt by the hot shoe. a hideous experience and one which will take time to overcome.

Also having 4 shoes on at a time is hard work fo him , and I would think he becomes stressed and uncomfortable as it gets longer. So get rid of the heat and smoke and reduce the time to 2 feet. In fact if the farrier is there regularly get him to do one at a time. Also if anyone tells you cold shoeing is not as good as hot ignore, it is just far far harder work for the farrier as he has to shape the shoe without it being pliable. but a good farrier can do it.
It took my horse about 12 months of patient shoeing, but eventually he could be shod in his stable, with the lead rope just looped through a tie ring. If you tied him up outside he would freak and attempt to pull the wall down or get over it.
 
nikkimariet said:
Perfect example of a chifney being used incorrectly. Bet your horse is well behaved now because its mouth has been pulled to shreds? Lovely. You could have cross tied the horse and then put a set of hobbles on which would have been less traumatic for all who where involved. I know how dangerous having a horse that rears in hand is - and have the dents in my head to prove it. And IMO that was entirely the wrong way to go about settling the situation.

OP - you say you don't have the ground to go barefoot. Going barefoot is not a 1 day long miracle recovery. It takes perseverance. And a great deal of time in some cases. And at the way your horse is reacting I'm surprised you haven't considered it in greater detail. Your horse is clearly frightened of something and/or in pain. MAYBE instead of forcing the horse to have shoes on....examine the possible pain source? Or it is purely fear and is behavioural - in which case, how is the horse when you are handling its feet and legs otherwise??? Perseverance through handling.....????
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By the sound of it if you got your hands on a chifney and pulled its mouth to shreds, you would be using it incorrectly. As I stated, it is a useful tool to use when the handler is experienced in using them. You obviously are only aware of them being used incorrectly and pulling the horse to shreds. In fact, cross tying the horse would be far more dangerous. The horse would panic not being able to break free, especially because it would have to break two pieces of string and not putting direct pressure on the quick release parts of the tying mechanism. You make reference to the fact that there is pain associated with the horse/shoeing. It is possible sometimes that the horse is just being naughty. Yes blah blah it might be pain related etc etc and horse is assoicating the shoeing with pain, but if you have the horse fully checked out there is nothing wrong, and the horse still tries to rear, then you need other options.

May I suggest if you are to 'pull your horses mouth to shreds' with a chifney, then please NEVER use one. You need to be experienced.

Work on almost any stud with stallions and you will see a chifney being used correctly, even when shoeing
 
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