I came, I saw, I almost bought....

Thanks so much for your video and explanations :D So interesting to compare the horse market between two places I have no experience in. The market here (Australia) is quite flat at the moment, and from what I have seen there aren't too many horses like those in your video around. Though I suspect many of them sell via word of mouth in the equine circles. I see what you mean about the American Market, I was quite shocked when I searched your link as you suggested :o
 
Ok so for more fun and picking on my compatriots....

Example a: Here is footage of my solid as heck packer. He's an American Thoroughbred who ran 4 races and finished dead last in all of them. He's 15.3 and 3/4" So not 16 hands though many sellers would have said he was. I didn't.

Because he was under 16 hands and had a miniscule OCD on his saggital ridge it took me 5 years to sell him. But I did get my asking price. Another inch or two and some more white and he would have been worth more. Even with the OCD.

I'm gonna share my worst video because it shows how genuine he was (This was a class over 4' fences (1.20+) and also it proves how I need work on bigger jumps.

https://youtu.be/u2A5xwAJLAI

He evented, did jumpers, hunters, and was a safe kids horse. Brought home a ribbon every outing.

That's when I was confirmed to abhor the American market. I got $15k for him. (11,300 in GBP)

Em
 
He's a lovely kind horse, thanks for posting the clip! Did you buy him "off the track"? The setting of the show looked wonderful!

I don't know if it's the same in the US but over here we have flat racing and jump racing with steeplechase (ie. the Grand National) and hurdle races. The flat racing bred horses tend to be finer younger horses and the steeplechasers more substantial type TB's. There are sales for ex-racehorses, and many event riders favour the jump bred horses and do very well re-training the horses to jump and event.

Can I ask, when you say "hunters" is that the jumping class that is judged on style as well as jump penalties? I saw a similar class at Dublin Horse Show a few years ago. The horses were ridden in a more forward / longer outline, but they jumped really nicely.
 
I did but him off the track. Through a CANTER affiliate at one of the tracks in Pennsylvania.

(www.canterusa.org) Complete opposite of bigeq.com. TONS of ottb (off track throughbreds very cheap) Thoroughbreds were the go to breed for a long time but now it's more preferable to have a warmblood. Long story.

So here's a good hunter round. It's unlike anything else in the horse showing world. And it's kind of a very subjective elitist thing.

https://youtu.be/eGiueH8DenI

Emily
 
BunnyDog said:
I did but him off the track. Through a CANTER affiliate at one of the tracks in Pennsylvania.

(www.canterusa.org) Complete opposite of bigeq.com. TONS of ottb (off track throughbreds very cheap) Thoroughbreds were the go to breed for a long time but now it's more preferable to have a warmblood. Long story.

So here's a good hunter round. It's unlike anything else in the horse showing world. And it's kind of a very subjective elitist thing.

https://youtu.be/eGiueH8DenI

Emily
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That is seriously weird. Why would anyone want to lumber around the ring on the forehand on a horse heaving itself over fences and chucking the rider forwards as it plunges into the floor on landing? That wins prizes??
 
ycbm said:
That is seriously weird. Why would anyone want to lumber around the ring on the forehand on a horse heaving itself over fences and chucking the rider forwards as it plunges into the floor on landing? That wins prizes??
Click to expand...

Ohhh yea. In that case, that was a class worth $100,000. The deal is that by and large the hunter classes are judged on the horse's way of jumping and it's ability to maintain a consistent rhythm. "Catch Me" does jump well and is very adjustable and rhythmic.

Scott (the rider) is by far one of (if not the) best hunter riders in the USA.

The pony divisions are better...

https://youtu.be/gSvP4nmLfzA

This is Lillie Keenan 8 years ago. She is one of the top US show jumpers now.

Emily
 
Ill admit i did not like the 3rd horse at all in that video.

Not true though, i actually thought he was lovely.
 
BunnyDog said:
Ohhh yea. In that case, that was a class worth $100,000. The deal is that by and large the hunter classes are judged on the horse's way of jumping and it's ability to maintain a consistent rhythm. "Catch Me" does jump well and is very adjustable and rhythmic.
Click to expand...

How much ¡!!!¡¡!?

Scott (the rider) is by far one of (if not the) best hunter riders in the USA.
Click to expand...

That's how he's managing to stop himself being thrown up the horse's neck as it lands.



The horse couldn't possibly jump anything of a serious height, width or complexity, like a treble, from that long, low, frame, could he?. It's just a weird kind of show class, I guess.
 
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ycbm said:
How much ¡!!!¡¡!?



That's how he's managing to stop himself being thrown up the horse's neck as it lands.



The horse couldn't possibly jump anything of a serious height, width or complexity, like a treble, from that long, low, frame, could he?. It's just a weird kind of show class, I guess.
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American Hunter classes are a very strange phenomenon, but they are one of the most lucrative markets in the USA. I once bred an entirely duff dressage horse that went on to be one of the highest priced Hunter Jumper horses sold in the early '90's (he funded my return to Ireland, bless him :-)

**I didn't train him - couldn't bring myself to make him flop around like that, but he absolutely loved it!
 
Cortez said:
American Hunter classes are a very strange phenomenon, but they are one of the most lucrative markets in the USA. I once bred an entirely duff dressage horse that went on to be one of the highest priced Hunter Jumper horses sold in the early '90's (he funded my return to Ireland, bless him :-)

**I didn't train him - couldn't bring myself to make him flop around like that, but he absolutely loved it!
Click to expand...

:D :D :D

Made my cold, miserable, snowy morning much better, thank you.
 
BunnyDog said:
Ohhh yea. In that case, that was a class worth $100,000. The deal is that by and large the hunter classes are judged on the horse's way of jumping and it's ability to maintain a consistent rhythm. "Catch Me" does jump well and is very adjustable and rhythmic.

Scott (the rider) is by far one of (if not the) best hunter riders in the USA.

The pony divisions are better...

https://youtu.be/gSvP4nmLfzA

This is Lillie Keenan 8 years ago. She is one of the top US show jumpers now.

Emily
Click to expand...

Hi BD!

Thanks for the other Hunter Class clips! I remember hearing the commentator at Dublin Horse Show saying that the good US Hunters change hands for hundreds of thousands of dollars in some cases, so it obviously has a huge following over there - and I guess sponsorship for the classes?

I guess the nearest we'd get to Hunter Classes is the "Working Hunter" competition, which is a show class - the horses jump a track of natural show jumping type fences (but no coloured poles). I'm no WH expert but from memory, the judge awards the horse and rider combination points for style/way of going, plus also points deducted for poles down/stops. However the way of going is very different to the horses on those clips in the US Hunter Class - it's far more like eventing show jumping style rather than "long and low". The best WH's look like they're jumping everything from a regular stride with minimal adjustment of stride before the fences, which are a fair size when you get to Horse of the Year Show etc!

When looking that the prices you quoted for buying a decent SJ horse over in the US, that makes me wonder why more riders don't come to the UK / Ireland / Europe to buy horses to ship back - the potential profits seem really enormous to me. I suppose it's all down to risk isn't it? Would you be able to buy say two or three young unbroken horses with good breeding lines, shipping them back to the US and then bring them on over there to produce and sell on? I appreciate that you still need something to ride at the moment though, but the figures you quote would make that quite appealing!

Btw, have you looked at the Billy Stud over here? The Stud has recently had a big Auction of their youngstock but it took place online which is quite a new thing over here. The "Billy" stock is doing really well with some great Billy horses coming through and they use really good bloodlines for their breeding programme.
 
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So the thing is that when H&H puts out the pictures of the HOYS Working Hunter Course, MANY American riders have gone on social media wishing that our courses were more like it. I think that the newer Hunter Derby courses are meant to give riders a middle ground that is not as mind numbingly boring* (my opinion) but also with the derby courses there's a bit more understanding about horses not going like a machine. See in regular hunter classes the judges have historically rewarded the horses that go the best but also who show no reactions like a regular horse. A head shake, a slight happy kick out or buck. So as a result we have had the problem of the hunter horses being lunged for hours on end so that they won't show any 'emotions' or disobediences. Also many many hunters live on a product called Perfect Prep. http://www.perfectproductseq.com/

The ironic part is that the USEF (US equestrian federation) has rules saying you're not supposed to be allowed to use any tranquilizers, but they're fine with this stuff.

Ok so this is what a derby course looks like:

This particular video is great because it shows the differences side by side in the champion and reserve in the 2014 Hunter Derby National Championship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8VpOUw3bRY

Here's the rules and payout page... (This is a HUGE money industry)

https://www.ushja.org/programs/ihd/finals_default.aspx

But this type of class exists at local/regional classes also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7f-CVvLRxw (I don't know this rider but it's from a show near me)



Now back to your other questions. I have seen the Billy horses but where I am from a outfit like that would be adding $10k or so to the prices of their horses. So out of habit I have avoided the big outfits in the UK/Europe because I thought the same rules would apply. I really would just like to find someone like me who has done a good job with their horse but has to sell as that's the plan. I get cautious around dealers as I know how to dig deep and research and find a nice horse myself. I have time and I prefer not to give away money to have someone just help me connect the dots. This is definitely because US trainers have a habit of screwing people over.

http://dressage-news.com/2017/10/09...d-in-florida-for-alleged-fraud-in-horse-sale/


It's a prevalent enough thing that a few states have made laws that you MUST disclose all commissions in a horse sale in writing.

As for why I don't bring over a bunch of young horses, they would all cost me $9k to come on the plane. So no discount there. As much as I would love to ride more, I have a full time job and the barn I rent is only 4 stalls on 3 acres. I have 4 horses now, but one is about to go spend the winter turned out at a friends farm. So I have room for 1. And then if/when my resale horse sells, I can get my turned out horse back....and hopefully by then he'll be better/sound. (He had a bone bruise in his front hoof this year)

Emily

(Sorry for the delay....silly time zones)
 
Interesting vid of the hunter round. Lovely horse. I can see how it looks a nice and easy horse, and kind of lopes around, but that does look to my UK rider eyes like a bit of a lumbering way to jump! I do wonder how much of this is fashion and how different regions or cultures look for different ways of going. The Chilean cowboys display at Olympia, mentioned on another thread, is another good example.
 
Ok so now I'm the one that needs some explanations.

I just went to YouTube and watched some of the HOYS Working Hunter rounds. Without sounding judgy, the two riders I saw looked a bit loose in the tack. Now admittedly the courses were different and the horses had a lot to look at. But is it typical that the riders at the HOYS divisions can be a bit green too? (Maybe not green but loose.)

The closest thing we have to that is that we have the Fox Hunters classes in some of the shows and the fox hunters in the USA are competing over 2'6 - 3' and even then they can be loose. But many are very secure. Just not all.

Em
 
BD I'm no working hunter expert or anywhere near it, but my understanding is that the rider is not being judged, just the horse. So if the horse jumps well, clean and has great conformation, movement and behaviour in the flatework showing section that comes afterwards, they could win with a rider riding like a sack of spuds.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if that's not right, but it's what happened when I won a local class.
 
Hi BunnyDog. This is really interesting.

Regarding the Working Hunter, they have all qualified to be at the show, but some qualifiers are tougher than others so there will be some less experienced combinations getting through. The courses for Working Hunter in the UK can be quite hard, with bullfinches, narrow fences, combinations, gates. I once watched a class and none of them had a clear round, even the ones who came into the ring looking as if they were going to.

Similarly, I once watched the competitors in the collection ring for the Hunter Championship at the Horse of the Year Show in the early rounds and there were horses there with less than perfect conformation. Considering that they had all won a qualifier I was quite surprised, but the top horses going into the final are going to be best in looks and performance.

In the UK too, it is the horse that wins, the rider doesn't get any marks (as far as I am aware) in any showing class apart from overall impression.
 
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Orangehorse said:
Hi BunnyDog. This is really interesting.

Regarding the Working Hunter, they have all qualified to be at the show, but some qualifiers are tougher than others so there will be some less experienced combinations getting through. The courses for Working Hunter in the UK can be quite hard, with bullfinches, narrow fences, combinations, gates. I once watched a class and none of them had a clear round, even the ones who came into the ring looking as if they were going to.
.
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I don’t know if they still do but the Derbyshire festival Hoys Wh classs used to use part of th XC course including a proper water jump with a drop into it, a jump in the water and then a jump out of the water.
 
ycbm said:
BD I'm no working hunter expert or anywhere near it, but my understanding is that the rider is not being judged, just the horse. So if the horse jumps well, clean and has great conformation, movement and behaviour in the flatework showing section that comes afterwards, they could win with a rider riding like a sack of spuds.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if that's not right, but it's what happened when I won a local class.
Click to expand...

As somebody who has produced a little TB mare to get to the final judging at HOYS, and also got placed at the RIHS in the workers, you can't ride like a sack of potatoes at those events and get away with it. The HOYS track I jumped, had only 7 clears out of 35, and the fences were all above Foxhunter height, with very wide oxers. A clear round there is no fluke, and style has a lot to do with the final judging, as well as the ride mark, which the american hunters don't seem to have? I thought the grey jumping in the hunter class was a lovely example of a stylish, well balanced ride. Always on the correct lead, with no change of pace throughout the round. I'm sure this horse could jump far higher when collected up, but that's not what they are looking for, is it? BTW, why the flapping standing martingales? Is the that "de rigeur?? "
 
cundlegreen said:
BTW, why the flapping standing martingales? Is the that "de rigeur?? "
Click to expand...

Absolutely part of the unofficial uniform in track.

D ring or Pelham bit, regular caveson that matches the brow band. Standing Martingale. Laced reins. Fitted pad with half pad. Boots not allowed on the horse and braided with between 50 - 75 braids.

Em
 
BunnyDog said:
Absolutely part of the unofficial uniform in track.

D ring or Pelham bit, regular caveson that matches the brow band. Standing Martingale. Laced reins. Fitted pad with half pad. Boots not allowed on the horse and braided with between 50 - 75 braids.

Em
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I think my fingers would fall off if I had to do 50-75 braids (or plaits as we call them)! I much prefer my 7-8 big fat dressage plaits :D

This is a very interesting thread, thank you for sharing so much info about the US market! A friend of mine is based out there and had a OTTB that she produced for the hunter classes, and sold for over $20k. She couldn't believe how little I paid for my Spanish horses, particularly my first one who had all the lateral work, Spanish walk and piaffe.

Just FYI BD as Cundlegreen referenced 'Foxhunter height' - here in the UK Foxhunter is a show jumping class that is 1.20m (4ft-ish), bigger in the jump-off. It's quite a prestigious class to get to the final of, it's often a starting place for future stars. I think that's all correct, I'm definitely not a show jumper!!
 
Wow, this has been super interesting Em - thank you for sharing! The world of hunters has always baffled me so great to hear more about it!

A young stallion i worked with was sold to the US after I left, he did really well in age classes over here and was jumping 1.30 when he left I imagine he was approx £30k? He is now very successful in the hunter world popping round 90-1m tracks and I couldn't believe someone would pay that for a horse to jump average heights but turns out he was probably a bargain!
 
cundlegreen said:
As somebody who has produced a little TB mare to get to the final judging at HOYS, and also got placed at the RIHS in the workers, you can't ride like a sack of potatoes at those events and get away with it. The HOYS track I jumped, had only 7 clears out of 35, and the fences were all above Foxhunter height, with very wide oxers. A clear round there is no fluke, and style has a lot to do with the final judging, as well as the ride mark,
Click to expand...

Can you clarify for those of us who don't show at that level. The riders are not marked, are they? Would it be possible for a great horse to jump a clear round with a rider with an effective but less than pretty show jumping style, and beat a worse conformed horse with a rider who rode perfectly?
 
ycbm said:
Can you clarify for those of us who don't show at that level. The riders are not marked, are they? Would it be possible for a great horse to jump a clear round with a rider with an effective but less than pretty show jumping style, and beat a worse conformed horse with a rider who rode perfectly?
Click to expand...

Being completely facetious but it would probably completely depend on what ‘name’ was riding and how much of the bad confo was covered up by condition!!

One would hope the best put together, jumping and moving horse would win irrespective of who was on top but ....
 
Hi again BunnyDog! Thanks for all the updates you've posted over the weekend - it's so fascinating to hear all about the hunter showing over with you - and all the braiding you have to do if you show a hunter!!!

I've re-read your post about when you were looking to lease an experienced show jumper and how much you would have to pay for such a short lease - that's an amazing amount of money!! I don't believe that short term leasing of experienced jumpers is very common over here but those with more experience of show jumping will be able to correct me! I obviously quite understand why you wouldn't be able to buy a handful of youngsters and ship them over to the US to break and bring on - but I hope that you find your perfect show jumper soon!

Sorry to keep going off-thread, but I was wondering how the horse-owners in your area keep your horses - I'd be fascinated to hear?

Over here unless you own land, you generally keep your horse or pony at a livery yard. These yards typically offer different types of Livery - including grass livery, "diy" livery where you pay for the stable/grazing and do the rest yourself, or alternatively part/full livery where the owner usually leaves the day-to-day care (and sometimes exercise as well) to the livery yard to look after. Livery yards can be small with up to 10 horses, but some are far bigger (up to 100+) and some are located at a show centre.

We live up in the North of England but I have lived in other areas, and my personal view is that in the UK, that DIY livery is the most popular. Livery prices obviously vary a lot depending on services and also the area of the country - with the South of England being way more expensive that where we are up in the North!

As an example, due to work commitments, I keep my horse (TBxWB) on "Part Livery" which includes grazing/feed/bedding/turning out/bringing in/standing with vet and farrier/use of indoor school & outdoor/parking for trailer/excellent off-road hacking. I can have "extras" such as my horse being ridden, but those are obviously charged as extras. For my livery, I pay approx. £90 per week, which is around $120 per week. For DIY at the same yard, it would be around £35 / $45 per week, and this just includes grazing, stable and use of schools / trailer parking / hacking.

In the US, would you say that DIY Livery is the most popular way to keep your horse - and also, how do the livery prices above compare to where you keep your horses?
 
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ihatework said:
Being completely facetious but it would probably completely depend on what ‘name’ was riding and how much of the bad confo was covered up by condition!!

One would hope the best put together, jumping and moving horse would win irrespective of who was on top but ....
Click to expand...

I know in my day it was said that Robert Oliver could ride a donkey and win a hunter class :D
 
Northern Hare said:
Hi again BunnyDog! Thanks for all the updates you've posted over the weekend - it's so fascinating to hear all about the hunter showing over with you - and all the braiding you have to do if you show a hunter!!!

I've re-read your post about when you were looking to lease an experienced show jumper and how much you would have to pay for such a short lease - that's an amazing amount of money!! I don't believe that short term leasing of experienced jumpers is very common over here but those with more experience of show jumping will be able to correct me! I obviously quite understand why you wouldn't be able to buy a handful of youngsters and ship them over to the US to break and bring on - but I hope that you find your perfect show jumper soon!

Sorry to keep going off-thread, but I was wondering how the horse-owners in your area keep your horses - I'd be fascinated to hear?

Over here unless you own land, you generally keep your horse or pony at a livery yard. These yards typically offer different types of Livery - including grass livery, "diy" livery where you pay for the stable/grazing and do the rest yourself, or alternatively part/full livery where the owner usually leaves the day-to-day care (and sometimes exercise as well) to the livery yard to look after. Livery yards can be small with up to 10 horses, but some are far bigger (up to 100+) and some are located at a show centre.

We live up in the North of England but I have lived in other areas, and my personal view is that in the UK, that DIY livery is the most popular. Livery prices obviously vary a lot depending on services and also the area of the country - with the South of England being way more expensive that where we are up in the North!

As an example, due to work commitments, I keep my horse (TBxWB) on "Part Livery" which includes grazing/feed/bedding/turning out/bringing in/standing with vet and farrier/use of indoor school & outdoor/parking for trailer/excellent off-road hacking. I can have "extras" such as my horse being ridden, but those are obviously charged as extras. For my livery, I pay approx. £90 per week, which is around $120 per week. For DIY at the same yard, it would be around £35 / $45 per week, and this just includes grazing, stable and use of schools / trailer parking / hacking.

In the US, would you say that DIY Livery is the most popular way to keep your horse - and also, how do the livery prices above compare to where you keep your horses?
Click to expand...

NorthernHare - you may find this old post interesting: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...es-horse-riding-look-like-where-you-re-living
 
Hi Guys!!!

Ok so 'livery' in England is 'boarding' in the US.

You can literally run the gamut on prices and amenities. For example... the last barn I kept two of mine at was 13 mins from work. It had a smaller indoor that unfortunately had rocks mixed into the footing. Bad enough that I eventually left as it was bothering my thin soled guy. It was 'self care' which I assume is the equivalent to full 'diy' there. They did feed them for me once a day but beyond that mucking, turning out, turning in, night feed and blanketing and un-blanketing was all on me. Not a big deal. That place was $250/mo. There was no outdoor arena and very limited hacking out.

Before that I was practically in luxury on a much larger farm with larger fields and an outdoor. There was a bit of mini xc jumps and a lots of areas to ride out. However the personalities of the owners were a bit tough. That was also self care and it cost $200 a head but they wouldn't do anything. So that was feeding twice a day, mucking blanketing etc. A lot of the time I had my guys living out in an 8 acre field with a huge run in shed made of cinder block that had a hay feeder in it. We would stick a round bale in the shed 1x a month during the winter and it was good. But the field was at the end of a 3/4 mile driveway off the road. And one time when we got 3 feet of snow (almost a full 1 meter) the owners decided they didn't need to plow the driveway for us to be able to feed my guys. They had hay and an automatic waterer in the field and as such they didn't need human interference. Of course this happened when I was away on a vacation so my poor horse sitters had to walk from the road down and back 1.5 miles in waist high snow. And then when I got back I had to pay a local farmer to clear the road (to the tune of $400) because the owners refused. Good thing I didn't need a vet out.

Ok so over here the most popular care is called "Full board." With this everything is covered (Feeding, mucking, turnout) Now you may have to pay extras (blanketing changes, holding for vet, farrier, etc and any thing like special feed, extra supplements or added hay)

After that we have Field board. They live in the field and get fed, hayed and watered.

After that we have Co-op board. Imagine self care, but less days a week and more horses. You have enough people (3-6) who share the work over the course of a week.

Full board can be anywhere from $600/month to $2500 month with respect to the amenities and location/demand. $600 around me will get you a decent barn with ok turnout areas and an outdoor ring.

The barns with indoors are closer to $1k a month.

Field board is between $300-$450 a month

Self care is $200-$300

Co op is $250-$450 depending on amenities.

If you have a trainer at a barn now the thing is full board with 4-8 lessons included.

The boarding situation near me:

http://equinemarketer.com/boarding.html Lots of variety depending on where you want to be.



Ok back to my horse hunt....

If a horse (That's in England) was advertised as having a solid 1.30 record and you pull it's record from 2011-May 2017 and you see 0 1.30 classes. Would you say it had a solid 1.30 record???

Especially when it's been eliminated before (3 x) at 1.10 and 1.20????

Em
 
Emily if you see anything North West England and want someone to give it a look over to spot anything obvious, I'd be happy to do that for you. I wouldn't jump it but I'm good at spotting flaws!

We rug here, we don't blanket. Blankets go under rugs.

No, that horse does not have a solid 1m 30 record!
 
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