ucmeicu
Well-Known Member
Next you will be saying the elephants at the circus are trained with buns!
i cannot believe what i've just seen! what the...?
- Thread starter charleysummer
- Start date
charleysummer
Well-Known Member
i think if you look at it in still motion it is more obvious
nativetyponies
Well-Known Member
As I replied to the other thread, my pony would jump in with me sat on him..then swim round the the sloping bank, climb out and we'd do it all over again.
I don't agree with the "drop-ramps" though.
I don't agree with the "drop-ramps" though.
charleysummer
Well-Known Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0Ikr5Z1RY4&feature=related 2:40 in this one aswell. that horse doesn't look very happy
applecart14
Well-Known Member
I don't think the horse was distressed either. When you see it being led around it looks calm as anything. It doesn't appear to be scraping and flaying around like crazy when about to 'dive' off and he doesn't do a mad scrabble out. I'm sure no horse would do that unless it wanted to do it. I really don't see it as a major problem - the horse probably gets treated better than its owner!
charleysummer
Well-Known Member
horses don't often 'want' to go into trailers either.. but they do, along with many other things...
Kallibear
Well-Known Member
That's rather my point. Why is asking a horse to jump into a pool any worse than asking them to get on a lorry? Except one has a useful purpous to us. They do it because they've been told to. Some people beat them onto a lorry, other train them nicely to accept it as tolerable. Some even learn to enjoy it for the reward
I think forcing a horse who doesn't want to do it (like that poor donkey) is cruel. But I also think forcing a frightened horse, who doesn't want to do it, in to a trailer is cruel.
Very little of what we expect horses to do is 'natural' so that's a lame card to play. Why is hurling over 5ft solid stone walls with an 8ft drop on the other side any worse than making them jump into a pool?
SNORKEY
Well-Known Member
I think this is disgusting and cruel, the only reason the horses seem 'ok' with it is becuase they have probably done it hndreds of times, and no one saw the cruel way of teching them to first do it!
People who pay to see stuff like this are morons!
People who pay to see stuff like this are morons!
Kallibear
Well-Known Member
Why assume that? Not everyone is cruel to their horse.
nativetyponies
Well-Known Member
Why would it be "cruel" to get a pony to jump into water?
Dropping a ramp isn't fair, but allowing it to jump, then get fed?.....
Dropping a ramp isn't fair, but allowing it to jump, then get fed?.....
charleysummer
Well-Known Member
if the horses are happy with jumping in...tbh im more worried about the risk to the horses health- the impact of water blinded that girl so goodness knows what it does to the horses ears/eyes etc and the impact on their legs. trailers etc are safer and the horse is in a natural position of standing where the muscles can support it properly- this is jst unessesscary and stupid imho.
teddyt
Well-Known Member
Some horses dont mind water and some hate it. But none like getting their ears wet for a start.
I personally think its a step too far doing something like that.
How the hell did they start the process in the first place? I doubt that the horse offered!
Flicker
Well-Known Member
Does a horse 'offer' to do anything? Jump a xc fence, go hunting, showjumping, dressage, play polo, pull a carriage, barrel race? No, it is trained to do all these things, just as it is trained to jump into a pool of water. Some people train kindly and some people train cruelly - irrespective of what discipline they work in.
Why is it worse to train a horse to do something that you consider unconventional, as opposed to any of the other activities I've mentioned above?
As far as swimming is concerned - my horse loves it! When we had the facilities, he would swim every couple of weeks as part of his training plan. He certainly didn't mind his ears (or any other part of his body) getting wet.
teddyt
Well-Known Member
Of course a horse is trained to do the things you mentioned. Thats why we love horses- because we can train their natural abilities to our own advantage.
I just personally think that asking a horse to jump from a height into water is not a very natural thing for a horse- jumping, turning at speed, etc is. Ive swam numerous horses in the sea and in a pool and ive never known any of them to appreciate their heads going under water!
For me, its a step too far to ask a horse to do that. Im sure the horse is happy, well cared for, etc etc but not the point imo. i dont like it!
I just personally think that asking a horse to jump from a height into water is not a very natural thing for a horse- jumping, turning at speed, etc is. Ive swam numerous horses in the sea and in a pool and ive never known any of them to appreciate their heads going under water!
For me, its a step too far to ask a horse to do that. Im sure the horse is happy, well cared for, etc etc but not the point imo. i dont like it!
Roasted Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
I dont care what we train our horses to do thats not natural all in the way of riding them but this is not adding anything to the horses education to improve it its basically exploiting an animal for money.
As for the bucket of feed well I would imagine if the horse hadnt had that 'treat' at the end then there would be more upraor about this. It all seems to be ok if the horse is having a feed.
Nikki xxx
As for the bucket of feed well I would imagine if the horse hadnt had that 'treat' at the end then there would be more upraor about this. It all seems to be ok if the horse is having a feed.
Nikki xxx
Charlie_F_K
Well-Known Member
Whilst I would never dream of watching this for fun, and I don't particularly think it should be going on or is safe, I do agree that the horse in the video posted initially really doesn't seem too upset. Although we can only speculate as to how it was trained to do it, I think it unlikely that somebody chased it up that height of ramp with a lunge whip! It simply doesn't seem too bothered! If the only/main argument being that it is unnatural, then neither is jumping/loading/xc/racing/bitting to encourage an outline, the list is endless and whilst I am not against any of these things they all put a strain on the horse physically and often mentally. Finally.. I think maybe there are horses being mistreat that are in much more need of your attention and sympathy than this fella??
Serenity087
Well-Known Member
If we're going to be pedantic... which I can't really, cos he may object...
The absolute worst, most horrific thing you can possibly do to a horse, a prey animal designed to run in order to survive... the most cruellest and mentally traumatising thing possible...
... is to get on it's back.
We're predators, they know that. Their back is their weak spot. Thats why they learn how to buck, plunge, rear, fall over backwards - to stop predators from getting on their back.
Now, making a horse jump into a swimming pool for food might not be the most normal thing you can do with your horse. But I don't think anyone who forces their prey animal to accept a predator sat on the most vulnerable part of their body and then do poncy tricks can complain about it!
The absolute worst, most horrific thing you can possibly do to a horse, a prey animal designed to run in order to survive... the most cruellest and mentally traumatising thing possible...
... is to get on it's back.
We're predators, they know that. Their back is their weak spot. Thats why they learn how to buck, plunge, rear, fall over backwards - to stop predators from getting on their back.
Now, making a horse jump into a swimming pool for food might not be the most normal thing you can do with your horse. But I don't think anyone who forces their prey animal to accept a predator sat on the most vulnerable part of their body and then do poncy tricks can complain about it!
teddyt
Well-Known Member
I dont do poncy tricks, at least i dont think i do
but i do ride. However, im pretty sure that all of my horses would prefer to be ridden than to jump off a ramp into water and go under. Ive backed many horses and most couldnt give a monkeys! i just dont believe they would be quite so relaxed about diving into a pool! Trained gradually or not i am sure i would get much more resistance to diving than i would to riding.
Serenity087
Well-Known Member
I dont do poncy tricks, at least i dont think i do
I get a fair bit of resistance out of both of mine at stepping down an inch... Am I cruel for forcing my foal to jump out of her stable at 3 days old because she didn't want to step down an inch??? Same concept... had to go up behind her and push! Hard!
I'm not condoning diving horses. But I can't figure out this mindset of "OMG, it's the most digusting thing I've ever seen" when the horse in question seems quite happy in the video... then it's all "But OMG, how must they have trained it!"
He who has no sins may cast the first stone...
Flicker
Well-Known Member
Could not agree more.
Unconventional, it may be. Cruel? I don't think so. There is some real cruelty out there that deserves our attention. I don't think this is really in the same league.
teddyt
Well-Known Member
But the foal is just learning where to put its feet- totally different! Its hesitating because it is learning how to balance on its legs and to it an inch may make it fall over! Perfectly natural, instinctive behaviour to resist. And one step onto a hard, firm surface is not totally alien to a horse once it does it. Diving into a pool from a height is! so giving the foal a shove to go down a tiny step isnt cruel, no. There are better ways of doing it but its not cruel.
And how do you define happiness? If the horse really wanted to do it i think it would jump in a bit quicker. But basically the horse has learnt that if it jumps in it gets food. that doesnt make it happy! It just makes it like food more than it dislikes jumping into water.
Ive seen worse cases of people using horses for their own advantage, yes. but i still dissaprove of diving!
Flicker
Well-Known Member
And there, I think, we will have to agree to differ.
The world would be a boring place if we all agreed on everything
The world would be a boring place if we all agreed on everything
happyhack
Well-Known Member
[youtube]r8vIjuIeQpM[/youtube]
Booboos
Well-Known Member
The horse in the first video doesn't seem bothered by the whole thing at all and seems willing to do it, so I don't have a problem with it. I thought it was rather sweet.
All of this provided that no coercive methods were used to get the horse to do it the first time and the horse is not injured in the process.
All of this provided that no coercive methods were used to get the horse to do it the first time and the horse is not injured in the process.
Booboos
Well-Known Member
It's a bit more difficult to say what the horses are thinking in the black and white stills in HH's post, but their body positioning seems to suggest that they know exactly what is coming and are anticipating the water in a calm manner. I would expect a panicky horse falling off a cliff to be flailing all over the place, whereas these horses seem to be purposefully diving - which would make this just a trick like all the others we teach horses.