I cant stabilize Charlies laminitis

[VictoriaEDT]

As some of you know my beloved piebald cob had a severe laminitis attack for the first time in his life at the age of 20 over 8 weeks ago, he also tested positive for Cushings :-(
Now on 3mg pergolide a day and has been for 3 weeks but we cant stabilise his laminits and im getting worried now..................what have you guys done for your heavy breed horses when they have laminits?

 

[PeterNatt]

Although your horse may have Cushings it may not have caused the Laminitis. Your vet needs to determine what caused it? Laminitis can be caused by a number of different things from Medical Shock, Concushion, Insuln Intolerance, Infection etc. My horse also has Cushings but got Laminitis as a result of emerging encysted small red worms. I am now very carefull that I use the correct wormers.

 

[WandaMare]

I have a laminitic that is difficult to stabilize once he gets a bout, I have him on Founderguard which has helped a lot, soaked very old hay weighed out each feed, leg wraps on cold nights to aid circulation, bioflow boots and biotin supplements. It is difficult though because of all the factors which can make it worse but it just seems to be a case of working through all possibilities with the vet and monitoring pulses every day to see reaction to any changes.

 

[VictoriaEDT]

i think it was concusion as he got it when we had the snow and bad frost

 

[WandaMare]

Mine has had it when it is very cold and he is kept on menage surface. Vet thinks it could be the effect of the cold on his circulation. This year I used leg wraps on nights where temp dropped below 0 and he was OK, so you could possibly try that too if yours got it in the cold. If it was purely from concussion you would expect it to improve as soon as he is moved to a softer surface, sounds as though there could be something else contributing to it.

 

[_HP_]

Apart from the pergolide, how is he being managed?

IME, he needs to be on box rest until he is sound for at least a month off painkillers. He needs to be detoxed. So soaked hay only bar what you need to feed to get meds down. I use Fast Fibre for this as it contains no mollasses.

This worked for my little cob who had had recurrent lami on and off for 3 yrs before I got him and had rotation in all 4 hooves.
He came sound on the above and has never looked back (touche's wood) although he hasn't got Cushings. However, 'I think' regardless of the cause of laminitis, once you have removed the cause, the treatment is the same.
My little cob doesn't have access to grass anymore except pickings. He is on a mainly dirt track with a couple areas of very sparse grass and has soaked hay all year round.

I really hope you can get your lovely cob back sound again.

Incidently, my cob came to me with Imprints on which gave him immediate relief but he's now shoeless/barefoot for the first time in his life and doing really well.

 

[_HP_]

I'm sure you've researched and researched already but in case you haven't ...
http://www.laminitisclinic.org/ECD.htm

 

[CBFan]

I think we could all do with a little more info in terms of his current management to be able to advise you... what has your vet and farrier said.

I havce known and managed several lamis and only one of those had cushings... he was on pergolide... and we used magnettic boots on him too....he also had heartbar shoes fitted...

there are several feed balancers and supps on the market which DO help laminitics... it might be worth looking into one of them... I know several people who have fed topspec anti lam that have never looked back...

let us know more details and we may be able to help some more

 

[VictoriaEDT]

Ok he has been on box rest for 8 weeks on deep litter about 9" deep with a block at the door so it is deep all the way to the door.

Hay 18lbs soaked for 1-2 hours, late cut last year

Feed 3 feeds a day with 1 scoop fibergy, 1/4 scoop fiber cubes (did buy healthy hooves but Dengie had the cheek to dump a shed load of molasses in it), Top spec balancer, cushingaze and Superflex (for his ringbone)

Drugs 1 1/2 danilon twice a day 7.30am and 9pm
3 ACP 3 times a day
3 pergolide AM

Magnetic boots

Styrofoam foot pads (like roof insulation board that squashes and moulds to their feet)

X rays 5 weeks ago shows a little bit of sinkage in both and 5 degree and 7 degree rotation

ACTH test - positive for cushings

Vet comes 3 times a week and cant understand why he gets better and then relapses - she is coming to do another ACTH test to see if he is getting enough pergolide

 

[VictoriaEDT]

he had top spec original though not anti lam - didnt know they did an anti lam!

 

[joeanne]

The hay needs serious soaking. 1-2 hours isnt going to do diddly squat i'm afraid.
12 hours minimum with a change of water halfway through, but the longer you can soak the better. Our old pony had his soaked for 24 hours with two water changes inbetween.

 

[scally]

Oh i really really feel for you, I lost one of mine in 91 to lami, and really feel the heartache and pain it takes to monitor and try and control this painful condition.

Does he really need any hard feed at all? Is he rugged? What is his weight like?

Not long ago I was talking to an ex vet nurse who worked only on lami cases, a good clip to try and get weight off a lami without cutting their feed, was to do an upside down chaser clip, so basically clip all the hair neck, and back to the rump halfway down the body, this way all the vital organs are kept warm, but they then shiver the weight off through the top half of their body which they are designed to do. It has apparently worked and helped a lot of ponies.

Hard feed really isnt necessary (although feed companies like to make us think it is), especially on box rest your horse is using no energy hay is sufficient (horses can live on grass alone and get enough vits and mins on the poorest of grazing) so any hard feed is purely more calories going into the system.

If in any doubt get a second opinion, I finally did but too late to save my mare something which I always regret as I felt the original advice was not working, and not correct but did not want to upset my original vet that I had been with for years. I hope you start to see an improvement soon.

 

[MrsMozart]

Ditto soak the hay. When LL gets a lami bout his hay is soaked for a minimum of twelve hours. He has no hard feed, other than a handful of Happy Hoof to get any meds down him. No sugars at all - no Polos, no carrots, nothing. He's a people person, as in he likes watching them lol, so he's stabled where he can see what's going on, which reduces his stress levels.

 

[dene]

Hello,

I am sorry to hear about your horse. As he is in pain, he is likely
to have raised cortisol, which can also trigger temporary
insulin resistance.

With this increased sensitivity, I would also suggest checking all
your supplements, as something that might have been fine
before the attack might be problematic right now.

Magnetic boots can also irritate inflammed tissues, so you
may want to try for a few days without them.

Good luck -- dene

 

[pottamus]

My Welsh cob got laminitis in Aug last year and I have been battling with it on and off since. He was given the all clear by the vet back in Nov to go back out during the day and strip graze him and he did really well. But then since Xmas day he had had minor bouts on and off even though nothing changed diet wise and all the grass was gone.
He went to the vets again last thursday for an assessment to see what the problem was and the farrier there seems to think that it is mechanical - as does the vet. He has had his feet done correctly now, heart bars off and normal shoes on and both vet and farrier think this will do the trick...fingers crossed. He had 12 degrees rotation in his LF too.
I have learn't the most valuable lesson through the heart ache, frustration and worry of laminitis and that is to take each day as it comes and try not to plan ahead...as it is a real rollercoster.
A few things I would check are...what exactly is in his supplements, have your hay analysed by D&H to check the sugar levels, make sure his feet are tended to every 6 weeks on the dot, make sure he is not stressed in the stable...my lad was terribly unhappy being shut in 24/7 and it got to the stage when the vet thought it was detrimental to his recovery, so I penned an area as big as another stable outside his stable and this helped him no end...not suitable for all I might add...but my lad was stable pretty quickly once he has his feet done the first time and outside his stable is 2 foot of bark chippings - so it is soft.
We are not out of the woods yet and I am waiting for the blood tests to come through to see if it is cushings related, but hang in there...so long as the set backs are not too severe and he is improving generally, that is all you can hope for at the moment.
Keep a log on a daily basis too so that you can refer back to it for patterns of changes...log down the amount of meds, feed given, hay amounts, behaviour, pain levels etc..it does help. Fingers crossed for you both.

 

[Tiggy1]

I was going to say the same thing. Hay needs to be old and soaked for at least 12 hours.
Does he really need all the extra feed while he is on box rest? Couldn't he just have a bit to give the supplements with?
Mine has had lami twice but last year we were free and am determined that this year is going to be the same.
I had the foot pads, bute, oversoaked hay lots of.
Simple system feeds are the only ones that don't have any molasses in at all (lucie stalks) Just watch your additional feeding as I said they do sneak in alot of molasses it would be worth talkng to Simple Systems.
Good luck it is hard work and sometimes soul destroying.

 

[CBFan]

he had top spec original though not anti lam - didnt know they did an anti lam!

I'd toddle off and get yourself some! and stop the topspec orig and all other bucket feed and just feed the anti-lam... honestly it works wonders... a horse (16hh tb type) at my yard was diagnosed with 7 degrees of rotation in both front feet last year and his owner put him on this , had heartbar shoes and pads fitted and much to everyones disgust turned the horse out in a small paddock! ...there is one train of thought that a little bit of movement to stimulate circulation is actually beneficial. I've always belived to the contrary, however this horse has made a full recovery.

Also echo what the others have said re hay - soak it for at least 12 hours..

 

[Munchkin]

Sent you a long PM... but your inbox is full!

 

[_HP_]

Late cut hay should be ok after a couple of hours but to be on the safe side I would soak for much longer.
I would also cut out the hard feed except something like speedibeet or Fast Fibre for meds.
I really do think laminitis sufferers need a detox.
Alot of supplements contain alot of crap.
I would try seaweed as a general vit and min supplement.

Have you been on Jackie Taylors site?
http://pets.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/TheMetabolicHorse/

and this site is useful too. Lots of diet info on there...
http://uknhcp.myfastforum.org/Feed_ingredients_list_feel_free_to_add_yours__about1218.html

 

[Kallibear]

Ditto the cutting out all feed and extra hay soaking.

As for balancers - all pelleted balancers (inc the anti-lam) have cereals in them. Try a powdered version instead. Pink powder is good - it's a fully vit supplement plus a probiotic, which will help with stress and correct digestion.

I would be feeding a handful of non-mollassed chaff with the supplements and nothing else apart from the hay.

Sounds stupid but I'm assuming he's had is shoes off? There seems to be a ridiculous school of thought that shoes on somehow helps 'support the foot'. As if the poor foot needs even more wall-loading

 

[_HP_]

...totally agree with shoes off, although Imprints helped my boy initially.