I desperately need some help

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L00bey

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So I posted a while ago asking what I could do to stop roo charging into fences. After many lessons our flatwork has improved tenfold, I do not think this is the issue but on grass he is still charging. We had entered the NWH at Hambleton at the weekend and after being towed round on albeit long reins we knocked the last fence down. I was so disappointed in myself after having a great jumping lesson and feeling much more confident. So now I'm a bit lost as to what I should do, I'm going for another jumping lesson before Bramham hopefully but I really think I need a different bitting solution.

Here's what we've been up to.

We went to a local show to do the WH and some Sj for a bit of practice. This was in his snaffle and it was a disaster, somehow managed to get placed (2nd) in the Novice, I think it was our nice show...
some pics






Then we went XC schooling in the snaffle again to get him over some more rusticy types as the local show was cacelled. He was amazing and as they were the novice fences he stood off them abit making him an absolute pleasure.
some pics:








And a vid:
http://youtu.be/MnpRIKR1GCg

Then we had a jumping lesson, I was so reassured and felt slightly more confident.
Went to Hambleton and he would not stand still for a second, went in, my reins kept slipping and he tucked in and towed me all the way around, I really struggled and we had the last fence. I was so disappointed in myself as we've worked so hard. This was jumped in his neue schule universal bit thing. But I dont think it made any difference. Here's the vid
http://youtu.be/ZI-0JALaOC0

Any thoughts greatly appreciated. I really want to jump a nice clear at Bramham, then I'm sacking off the showing rubbish and going eventing... PS I know he's underweight I'm only doing the showing stuff for a bit of fun and to ride at some nice shows.
 
He has a lovely technique but because he uses his neck and head so much you have to give a fair bit of rein and are small on him to begin with, also anything which inhibits this is likely to upset him, which you don't want.
IMO I would try a different mouthpiece rather than a different action, maybe a copper roller?
 
Not exactly qualified to answer this, but what a stunning horse! :O
Perhaps he's finding the fences a little too small, does he back off more as they get bigger? He looks in a lovely rhythm in the video, I know it's so hard, but try and consciously think 'SHORTEN THE REINS!' all time, and if you can get some show jumping schooling on grass, and whenever he gets long and fast, circle until he's in a nice rhythm again, then present when he behaves?
You look fantastic on the flat though, and I think it will come with time and practise! :) Good luck, sure some more knowledgeable H&Hers will come along and be more helpful!
 
siennamum said:
He has a lovely technique but because he uses his neck and head so much you have to give a fair bit of rein and are small on him to begin with, also anything which inhibits this is likely to upset him, which you don't want.
IMO I would try a different mouthpiece rather than a different action, maybe a copper roller?
Click to expand...

This was my first thought, he uses himself so well over the fences you are almost riding a bit defensively so you are not pulled too far forward.
I would like to see you with a shorter stirrup so you can remain a little closer to him, in a few shots you are rather loose with your lower leg which will not help with either his or your balance.
He slightly rushes the last couple of strides as he gets his head up to look at the fence, can you try a slightly more powerful canter with him a little more up all the way round he should then be easier to maintain on the rhythm all the way, reins need to be shorter and less worrying about him looking round, at times he is almost going behind the vertical which does not help you keep the rein short enough.

This is being picky as there is so much to like, the horse is lovely his hind leg action at the start of the video is great but a few minor tweaks are all going to make all the difference, try and get him a bit quicker to pick up the correct lead.
 
Stunning horse OP!
Just a simple suggestion but have you tried using a Flash or a Drop Noseband??

Flash has worked wonders on my Mare, she used to tank into fences & we seem to have a bit more control now.
 
be positive said:
This was my first thought, he uses himself so well over the fences you are almost riding a bit defensively so you are not pulled too far forward.
I would like to see you with a shorter stirrup so you can remain a little closer to him, in a few shots you are rather loose with your lower leg which will not help with either his or your balance.
He slightly rushes the last couple of strides as he gets his head up to look at the fence, can you try a slightly more powerful canter with him a little more up all the way round he should then be easier to maintain on the rhythm all the way, reins need to be shorter and less worrying about him looking round, at times he is almost going behind the vertical which does not help you keep the rein short enough.

This is being picky as there is so much to like, the horse is lovely his hind leg action at the start of the video is great but a few minor tweaks are all going to make all the difference, try and get him a bit quicker to pick up the correct lead.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of this :) My priorities would be to get your stirrups up at least one and probably two holes, and then work on having his head up and out in the canter, so he can see the fences early and clearly - the moment he rushes is when he raises his head on the approach... If, with his head in that higher position, and with a really powerful canter, you still can't maintain a rhythm and stop him rushing the last couple of strides a stronger mouthpiece might well be the way to go - I am a great fan of the "scrob" mouthpiece, sweet iron with copper bars and rings, like you get on the Tom Thumb gag, but you can get this mouthpiece on a snaffle as well, and indeed on a pelham as well, although imo that would be too much for yours.

But he is a stunning horse, moves beautifully, scopey, bold and athletic, and you are doing a good job in general :)
 
L00bey said:
Went to Hambleton and he would not stand still for a second, went in, my reins kept slipping and he tucked in and towed me all the way around, I really struggled and we had the last fence. I was so disappointed in myself as we've worked so hard. This was jumped in his neue schule universal bit thing. But I dont think it made any difference. Here's the vid

Any thoughts greatly appreciated. I really want to jump a nice clear at Bramham, then I'm sacking off the showing rubbish and going eventing... PS I know he's underweight I'm only doing the showing stuff for a bit of fun and to ride at some nice shows.
Click to expand...

I was watching the video on a phone so a bit hard to see but it looks like you kept a really nice rhythm all the way around. He was a little deep to the last and caught it but much better than standing him off it. He looks a super sort and I think you already know - reins too long, fences too small :)

It probably felt worse than it was. He does look like he's tucking his chin in a bit and possibly leaning on you. My go to bit is a waterford, always found it worked well for enthusiastic jumpers
 
First of all there is lots to like! He is a lovely horse and you ride him well and the picture between the fences is very good. It certaintly doesn't really look like you're being towed round.

As others have said you need to shorten your reins and get his head out in front of you a bit more. Also, and please don't take this as a critiscism, but do you have a tendancy to fire him to a fence sometimes? It just looks a little like the final rush into the fence is being as much driven by you as it is by the horse, but its really hard to tell from the video. Have you made a conscious effort just to sit really quiet all the way into the fence and not worry about the stride?

If he does just tank into the fences then i would spend a lot of time in training working on this issue, by either turning him in a circle when he rushes, or something i find works really well, is to actively bend round my inside leg as i come round the corner and then bend round my outside leg in that moment they stick their head up and charge at the fence. This really stops them bracing the body. I think with a few minor adjustments you'll be flying round clear!
 
Thanks for the lovely compliments and advice, I think you all have it perfectly right, my stirrups are waaay too long, since the xc pics I put them up another hole for jumping. So they are up 3 from flatwork, I do feel quite perched on him at this because my saddle is really straight cut (i'm saving for a jumping saddle!).

Megan97, with sj/wh fences it does not make the slightest differece whether the fences are 40cms or 1.40cms he jumps them exactly the same haha he's got a 5th leg (says my instructor) and generally hauls himself over one way or another.

I am really trying to shorten my reins but it feels unnatural to me for some reason. What can I do to lift his head? It sometimes feels if I shorten my reins the more tucked in he gets, when he is tense or stressed that's what he does so how can I get him to lift and uncurl?

I do ride defensively and I don't really have a reason why, that is exactly what my instructor said. Supanova, I don't feel like I fire him but it might be subconscious as I anticipate it? I don't think about counting strides ever (shock!) because I feel like if I do I will interfere too much with him and it ends up horrible! I just try to sit as quietly as possible most of the time haha. The bending sounds like a good exercise, I'll give that a go!


So on the bit side of things are we thinking something with a bit more movement in it? I'm keen to steer away from anything with tooooo much poll pressure as I don't want him to overbend more? We did have a flash on his Albion bridle but he stood on it and snapped it clean off.... do you think a grackle would make any difference? He does open his gob a lot.

There's so much great advice here thanks so much, I'm really keen not to rush things with him this time, I've made that mistake before and it sent us the wrong way so I want to do it right this time!
 
I just watched the video again I do not think you fire him but he just increases his speed into the fences because he needs the extra power, his canter is lovely but underpowered, he is fairly lazy through his transitions and gets behind the vertical instead of coming back to you then picking up canter when you ask.

I would do loads of transitions, get him much sharper off the leg, this should activate the hind leg which in turn should enable the shoulders and front end to lift, transitions within the canter will also help, get him moving on into med and back towards collection making sure he stays in front of the leg and that the canter remains powerful and energetic rather than becoming slow and flat. Plenty of proper counter canter will help you so if he is on the wrong leg you do not just leave him to freewheel around the turns but continue to keep him up and forward but I think with a few sessions working on his reaction to your aids he will be far sharper to come back to trot when required and will pick up the correct lead.

I dont think a change of bit will make much difference, he seems happy enough but possibly something with a different link will just give him a new feel without being too much for him.
 
I don't think you look defensive but just a little like you are thinking too much about the fence and the take off point - my trainer always tells me to just think about maintaining the quality of the canter all the way to the fence and not even think about the fence. Its easier said than done though - i know only too well!!

Best way to get them to lift their heads is to lift your hands up - when they lift put your hands back down. If they drop again, repeat etc. Have you considered a waterford? I use a loose ring waterford on my mare who has a tendancy to tuck her head in and tank at fences and have found it helps to get the head up but isn't too strong.
 
be positive said:
I just watched the video again I do not think you fire him but he just increases his speed into the fences because he needs the extra power, his canter is lovely but underpowered, he is fairly lazy through his transitions and gets behind the vertical instead of coming back to you then picking up canter when you ask.

I would do loads of transitions, get him much sharper off the leg, this should activate the hind leg which in turn should enable the shoulders and front end to lift, transitions within the canter will also help, get him moving on into med and back towards collection making sure he stays in front of the leg and that the canter remains powerful and energetic rather than becoming slow and flat. Plenty of proper counter canter will help you so if he is on the wrong leg you do not just leave him to freewheel around the turns but continue to keep him up and forward but I think with a few sessions working on his reaction to your aids he will be far sharper to come back to trot when required and will pick up the correct lead.

I dont think a change of bit will make much difference, he seems happy enough but possibly something with a different link will just give him a new feel without being too much for him.
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I don't disagree with you and i think "fire" was the wrong use of words. It just seems to me that there is a moment when she goes - "ok go", or "right i'll let you go now" rather than just sitting on the same canter all the way in. Totally agree that the canter needs to have plenty of jump in it to be able to do this though!
 
Could it be that because he is a big horse that you feel like you have more of a canter than you actually do?
 
Broke_But_Happy said:
Could it be that because he is a big horse that you feel like you have more of a canter than you actually do?
Click to expand...

This to a certain extent.

Yes, your reins need to be shorter, however he is evading the bit by tucking his nose in and is behind the vertical and going 'downhill' so that when you do something like go into a fence, his head is coming up to where you would expect (possibly a bit higher than liked) but because you are used to his head being so far down, combined with the extra power possibly feels as if you are being tanked into the fence when you really aren't as quick into them as it possibly feels for you when you're in the saddle.

If you try to shorten the reins now, his nose will go further down and under and he will win strength wise - you need to get his bum under and his head up.

That said, he is a super horse - there are not many horses that jump a novice height fence from one stride of canter out as neatly as he did in your vid and as effortlessly. I should imagine you did well in your WH class because he is a nice sort, jumps well and is in a snaffle (other 2 beside you in gags) with a cavesson. A fair few judges will take this into account, even if you get a pole down or fluff little bits :)
 
I do think you're right about him being big and feeling like we're going 10000 mph but actually not. So I'm going to shorten my reins and stirrups and heave his head up and see what happens at Bramham, thanks a lot everyone you're input has been invaluable :)
 
I think you're right, I really concentrate on his canter around the course then as soon as we 'lock on' I do just sort of relax and let him take control, I think it's a really fine balance between interfering with him and upsetting everything and letting him do what he wants haha. I am thinking of trying a waterford actually? Just a loose ring snaffle one?
 
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