I do not agree with things vets do!

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Exploding Chestnuts

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OK, I am old, very old
My first paid job was "breaking" ponies, I got 50p [10shillings] per pony.
I used to ride this, that, and anything.
Most exciting ride was galloping Clydesdales in halter home for winter alongside a canal, obviously we were supposed to walk them home, but I was a teenager!
Now, over a lifetime [aged 8 to aged 68] I have looked after a lot of horses 1000's], but only two have had colic, both recovered with vet attention. One was my own, he had eaten a lot of grass, and he colicked.
t'other was a P-T-P getting readied for a big race, he ate his bed!!!!!
Both lived.
I had a horse who I had to put down in the end, but in the interim one vet said " operate" so [grasping at straws == "we did everything we could" , we had an operation for twisted gut, and it was done at home [1970's] and there was nothing to be done, he had grass sickness.
The point of this post?
I can't trust all vets to do "the right thing"
PS the only horse I saw going for an operation, in my opinion was not "fit to travel", poor thing, she she died in the vet school car park, half in half out of the trailer.
I don't think the owner [who was not onsite at the time] paid for "the veterinary report"
 
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Mrs C123, from where I'm standing, you are young chick!:D 68? Pah! I can give you another 5 years on that!;) Homo sapiens does not reach the age of reason until 65, that's why they have to retire us.

I was a vet school long enough to learn that some vets will never know much. A few are downright crooks. Many, unfortunately, are businessmen first and vets second, but that is the way of the modern world.

I remember one fellow student I lent a fiver. I never got it back so kept a close eye. One day I said to him, "You really don't like animals, do you?" To his credit, I got an honest reply. "No, I don't", he said, "but then I am intending to go into government service where I will have nothing to do with them, except on paper. I'll work in a nice centrally heated office for a fat salary and retire early on a good pension". I've never forgotten that and I've met a few since who clearly didn't pass the civil service exam and were forced into general practice!!

Of course, having looked after thousands of horses you will know nothing. This is actual fact and in accordance with the law of inverse proportions. The more you've done, the less you know. And I'll bet I know even less than you do! Hopefully a twenty something will be along in a minute to tell us where we are both going wrong!:D:D:D I suspect we are feeding the wrong supplements....
 
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I'm actually grateful that I've made the decision that I won't travel my oldie horse further than the local vets practice even if it means PTS. It does give a lot if peace of mind knowing that I won't go though the should I shouldn't I thing about trying to rush him to get hospital.

Not sure about younger pony tho, I probably would with her as shes young and healthy and also a better traveller.
 
Yes, I was told quite bluntly the other day by Big Noise in the BHS, "things have changed since your day"............. yes in my day we made sure our horse were well fed and bedded, with fresh water, schooled, groomed and exercised, where did it all go wrong?
 
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lachlanandmarcus said:
I'm actually grateful that I've made the decision that I won't travel my oldie horse further than the local vets practice even if it means PTS. It does give a lot if peace of mind knowing that I won't go though the should I shouldn't I thing about trying to rush him to get hospital.

Not sure about younger pony tho, I probably would with her as shes young and healthy and also a better traveller.
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Yes, you have had a think about it, and have a lot of horse experience, but many horse owners don't have the choice, in an emergency, as in the case I cited above, the vet was on the phone to vet school [just so happened I was in earshot], he was obviously shaken, and of course the vet at the other end said "bring it in", what else would they say. The owner was not on site.
It was up to the on-call vet to say "not fit to travel" but he did not......... after all, "he did all he could"
 
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MrsD123 and Dry Rot, have you had your backs, teeth and saddles checked recently?

Only kidding! I totally agree. My vet is fantastic, but the one before was a right money grabber and I didnt trust anything they said/did!
 
HaffiesRock said:
MrsD123 and Dry Rot, have you had your backs, teeth and saddles checked recently?
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Funny you should say that, I have noticed my skin is not as peachy smooth as it once was, other body parts seem to be reacting adversely to gravity.
Yes, am going to have my teeth done again this year, they are not white enough, I want the Simon Cowal smile, without the attitude, crowns might seem like a good idea, but I draw the line at transplants!
My hair has lost its shine, so I will add linseed [micronised] and also a few minerals to try to restore the colour............
 
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MrsD123 said:
Funny you should say that, I have noticed my skin is not as peachy smooth as it once was, other body parts seem to be reacting adversely to gravity.
Yes, am going to have my teeth done again this year, they are not white enough, I want the Simon Cowal smile, without the attitude, crowns might seem like a good idea, but I draw the line at transplants!
My hair has lost its shine, so I will add linseed [micronised] and also a few minerals to try to restore the colour............
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He he he :D
 
MrsD123 said:
OK, I am old, very old
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And isn't it great!! Let's face it, there is only one alternative to growing old - and it isn't very attractive at all!

I'm lucky, my vet is a few years younger than me and he became my vet when he was the junior vet in the practice (in 1987). He's now the senior partner and we understand each other very well - and I trust him. But the poor guy can't work 24 hours a day/7 days a week - so occasionally I get a junior. AAAGGGHHHH! It's ok if I know what's wrong with the horse - otherwise .......
 
JanetGeorge said:
And isn't it great!! Let's face it, there is only one alternative to growing old - and it isn't very attractive at all!

I'm lucky, my vet is a few years younger than me and he became my vet when he was the junior vet in the practice (in 1987). He's now the senior partner and we understand each other very well - and I trust him. But the poor guy can't work 24 hours a day/7 days a week - so occasionally I get a junior. AAAGGGHHHH! It's ok if I know what's wrong with the horse - otherwise .......
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LOL
 
Dry Rot said:
I was a vet school long enough to learn that some vets will never know much. A few are downright crooks. Many, unfortunately, are businessmen first and vets second, but that is the way of the modern world.
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My dad is a DEFRA vet for all his sins. Hes met vets who don't believe animals can feel pain. Um.......right!

When we had the equine vet out for my old girl, he said to my mum that he hoped I could do the right thing for her. My mum told him not to worry. She was absolutely right- I had always said the day she needed an operation would be the day I said goodbye. She was 35 and owed me nothing .

I don't think the vets are entirely to blame...some of it has to go on people who are living in cuckoo land and think their horse will be fine. They also think it's ok to put it through months of pain to make it fine.
 
hnmisty said:
I don't think the vets are entirely to blame...some of it has to go on people who are living in cuckoo land and think their horse will be fine. They also think it's ok to put it through months of pain to make it fine.
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Modern thinking is that all problems [not just horsey problems] have a solution that will be reached fairly rapidly, and which will satisfactory all round.
Horses may present with difficult problems, and sometimes the owner does not realise how lucky they are that things get better so quickly........ yes, sometimes it is the owner, sometimes the vet, sometimes it is lack of horse knowledge, and / or education [in a horsey sense] sometimes lack of interest. Some people just don't care a damn.
 
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I am lucky my equine vets, follows hounds (was hunt master), shoots, fishes and events-his wife runs a yard and does equine physio, so I have a down to earth vet that realises one size does not fit all in the equine world and that horses have a purpose and for some people if they cannot fulfill that purpose it is time to say goodbye-he also believed Dr Green is the best healer there is
 
twiggy2 said:
I am lucky my equine vets, follows hounds (was hunt master), shoots, fishes and events-his wife runs a yard and does equine physio, so I have a down to earth vet that realises one size does not fit all in the equine world and that horses have a purpose and for some people if they cannot fulfill that purpose it is time to say goodbye-he also believed Dr Green is the best healer there is
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You're very lucky! Back in the day, all equine vets were horsey (and I think it makes a massive difference) but not so many these days. My practice are a mixed bunch, I don't mind having a non-equine vet for annual jabs (although had to smile at the girly who turned up last year in full makeup and high heels!) but I expect to see my preferred equine vet for anything else. And she's old school, had horses all her life, so very practical and not at all one of the 'let's get him off to Leahurst straight away' kind.
 
Vets make mistakes. My friend was told her TB needed an op after a nasty cut on his leg as she thought it was infected badly and damaged tendons. 2 years later he is still going strong and he never needed the op just box rest and wound care and I can ensure at 20yrs old he is young at heart
 
MrsD123 said:
Funny you should say that, I have noticed my skin is not as peachy smooth as it once was, other body parts seem to be reacting adversely to gravity.
Yes, am going to have my teeth done again this year, they are not white enough, I want the Simon Cowal smile, without the attitude, crowns might seem like a good idea, but I draw the line at transplants!
My hair has lost its shine, so I will add linseed [micronised] and also a few minerals to try to restore the colour............
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Speak for yourself, me dear. From where I am standing you look fine. Much the same as I do. Sparkling skin, brilliant white teeth, and the same luxurious head of blond hair....

My problem is my eyesight. I look in the mirror and all I can see is a blur.:confused:

But that's alright. The memory is still good and I remember what I look like. (See first paragraph above).:D;)
 
I have a super vet but not sure the practice is quite so caring... I tend to find that a vets decision on what my horse needs is based on whether it is insured or not. Maybe vets aren't completely to blame. Surely it would be better if insurance companies only paid out up to what the horse is worth. Slightly changing the subject but have always had a much better/honest answer when I say my horse is not insured........
Really annoys me when I see horses being put through treatment that is causing a lot of suffering and quite clearly at best is just delaying the inevitable and always paid for by insurance.
 
MadBlackLab said:
Vets make mistakes. My friend was told her TB needed an op after a nasty cut on his leg as she thought it was infected badly and damaged tendons. 2 years later he is still going strong and he never needed the op just box rest and wound care and I can ensure at 20yrs old he is young at heart
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EVERYONE makes mistakes. We may not want to hear that about people who have such grave responsibilities but it is inevitable.

In most situations the guard against this is having multiple people involved in the decisions and checking the results. In this country that "extra person" is almost inevitably the owner (in North America there is quite often a trainer involved as well, which brings both good and bad to the party) along with possibly other care providers, and so there is a large burden on the owner to be aware and informed, from knowing what is "normal" for the horse to controlling the budget to researching the options. This is a reality of horse ownership but one that, in my observation, is increasingly foisted on to "others". In the end it's the owner who has the ultimate responsibility not the vet.
 
jules9203 said:
I have a super vet but not sure the practice is quite so caring... I tend to find that a vets decision on what my horse needs is based on whether it is insured or not. Maybe vets aren't completely to blame. Surely it would be better if insurance companies only paid out up to what the horse is worth. Slightly changing the subject but have always had a much better/honest answer when I say my horse is not insured........
Really annoys me when I see horses being put through treatment that is causing a lot of suffering and quite clearly at best is just delaying the inevitable and always paid for by insurance.
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^^Yep^^

I won't tell the vet whether I've got insurance or not until the horse has been fully assessed and we're discussing the options. Frankly, how I'm going to pay for further diagnostics or treatment is none of their beeswax. Having £5000 of vet fees cover does not mean I'm going to put my horse through stressful procedures unless they're absolutely necessary.

Fell out with my practice a few years ago when the vet who turned up asked (as she was getting out of her car and before she'd even clapped eyes on the horse) "is he insured?" and then after the quickest lameness exam ever performed, decided I should ship him off to Leahurst for a full work up. She did not appreciate my "isn't that what I'm paying you for?" at all. Horse did not go to Leahurst and came sound after a few weeks of turnout.
 
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I was lucky to have a vet who was also a horse woman with a knowledge of horses not just vetinary(sp)practices and that does make a difference esp in babys case with her mental issues and blindness. I do think from my experiences some vets should stay with small animals :)
 
I do think insurance companies are partly to blame for paying out too easily.

When my horse was in hospital, uninsured, for a serious infection in a wound, the nurses didn't give a damn about how much money they used up on bandages, and averaged seventy pounds of materials per bandage change on a tiny hock wound. Most of that was spent on stuff to hold up the bandage around the hock, which could have been done better with reusable gamgee and bandages which I would happily have supplied. My bill was inflated by a totally unnecessary several hundred pounds, presumably because insurance companies just pay up.

A friend's horse went to Leahurst for lameness in one front leg and they put him through a scintigraphy at over £1000 before nerve blocking his foot. That scintigraphy was completely unnecessary, but the insurer paid with no quibble.

But vets do love 'doing something' even if there is no need. The horse with the hock infection also had a hole in his front leg, which was clean but very slow to heal. The vet wanted to xray the leg, and I pointed out that the wound was several weeks old and the horse had never been lame. But it's so slow to heal, it probably has a sequestrum in it, she said. So what, said I, you aren't going to put a sound horse of mine under a general anaesthetic, so I don't care if it's got a sequestrum in it, we'll deal with it if it causes an issue. The hole took several more weeks to close completely, the lump that may well have been a sequestrum was reabsorbed, and the next time that vet saw the horse she was open mouthed with shock that the horse was actually quite capable of healing itself without her intervention.

We have an explosion of foot lame horses in this country at the moment, it seems to me. In the old days, the treatment was to take off the shoes and turn the horse away for three to six months. Now, they are being treated with drugs and bar shoes even though the success rate is abysmal. Then when it doesn't work, they are out of insurance claim time unless they are put down. It almost makes me weep.
 
jules9203 said:
I have a super vet but not sure the practice is quite so caring... I tend to find that a vets decision on what my horse needs is based on whether it is insured or not. Maybe vets aren't completely to blame. Surely it would be better if insurance companies only paid out up to what the horse is worth. Slightly changing the subject but have always had a much better/honest answer when I say my horse is not insured........
Really annoys me when I see horses being put through treatment that is causing a lot of suffering and quite clearly at best is just delaying the inevitable and always paid for by insurance.
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Totally agree with this. I know someone who paid £100s for treatment for a 30 year old pony, that in the end died more or less by itself. Poor thing suffered for weeks while the vet "tried this and that." The owner ended up with a dead pony and a large bill. There are those dreaded words "is he insured?" Should that make any difference to the treatment?

I think that some vets like to "experiment" but they would argue that they are using the latest drugs/techniques (and OK the insurance company is paying).

Also totally agree about the feet issues, CPTrayers. Why don't people take their horse's shoes off like they used to and give the feet a rest?
 
But then why can't owners say "No"? I quite agree, insurance definitely encourages people to do things against their common sense. But that is all caught up in this idea now that "best" equals "most expensive" and you are not doing "your best" for the horse unless you throw everything at the situation, regardless of extenuating factors, ability to sustain the level of management etc. I really think the "year" thing is disastrous in many cases as it certainly perpetuates that attitude - do everything possible, regardless of risks or potential reward - but then people also embark on what are essentially long term management plans, like joint injections or horses being sustained on medication, without thinking about how they are going to continue once the year is up.

I think it is true that many vets are, at heart, scientists are drawn to new and exciting ways to do things. They also, obviously, like "cures" although they often don't define that the same way as many owners. But owners are the ones charged with long term care and only the owner knows what he/she wants out of the situation and can sustain. I regularly have conversations where owners tell me the vet has said they "have" to do x or y and yet when I say, "Tell them you cannot do that and ask what the options are," then it turns out there ARE options. Owners freely admit they don't want to "offend" the vet or be seen to not being doing their "best" for the horse, but people can't help you properly if you don't give them all the information, even if that is to say "Okay, then, don't go down this path."

I know I will now be told this is not the owner's responsibility, that's why they hire experts, and you can't expect people to make decisions like that. But people can and have, before all these fancy options were available. Maybe they understood a bit more that, really, there is rarely a 100% "right" answer.

I don't think socialised medicine helps either, much as it is near and dear to my heart. People in the UK and Canada, bless them, simply do not think of health care as a commodity, they think of it as a right. And the attitude bleeds into horses, especially combined with the insurance culture. "My horse has a RIGHT to x treatment, no matter how expensive and complicated." But that's simply not true. Horses are, at the end of the day, possessions and that means the rules are different. We might not like it but surely it's best to acknowledge that going in, so we can make informed decisions based on what we can/should do, not what we wish we could do.
 
Now, what I do, weather horse is insured or not, is go for the most cost effective treatment.

I tell the vets what I want doing, and get it written down. Mind having said that, more often that not, they will say no don't need to xray that bit, theres nothing wrong with it.

Days/Weeks/months later... "that" bit is xrayed and something found to be wrong. Would have saved me a whole pile of cash if the vet had just xrayed the bit I had asked to be done the first time.]

Have been on the receiving end of crooked vets. Read through the RCVS code of conduct. Take note in all phone calls what the vet says. If they break any bits of the code of conduct complain to the vet.
 
You need to be quite old to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff, and you need to know enough to know when things are wrong (from the vet). I am astonished at what vets don't know and can't do.
 
Cortez said:
You need to be quite old to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff, and you need to know enough to know when things are wrong (from the vet). I am astonished at what vets don't know and can't do.
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True. And until you get to that point (which is never because none of us knows it all) you need to surround yourself with and learn from experienced people and ask their advice (rather than asking random internet people, although they can be useful but they don't know "you") when it's actually hitting the fan. Experience is a good teacher, to be sure, but other people's experience is less costly!
 
Its only after having had horse for a good few years that you realise that the much more experienced experts that you went to for advice and believed knew best in whatever department we're talking about (be that vet, farrier, instructor, YO, etc) told you stuff you now believe to be utter rubbish, or at least not the way you've come to see things. Yet whenever someone relatively novicey needs advice they're still the only people they've got to learn from and trust, and it takes years and balls to tell a vet, or other expert really, you think you know better than them right now about how to proceed.
 
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