I don't know what to do about this little ex racehorse :(

Michen

Michen

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I’m absolutely tearing my hair out here. I’ll try and keep this as brief as possible, if you comment, please read entire post  Three weeks ago I got an ex racer off the track straight from trainer (out of sheer pity more than anything, he’d been in a stable with no turnout/lead/ridden since his last race 10 days before and he was a miserable depressed sight). He’s 7, ex flat, ran 35 times, won 5 and second in 10. Retired as he’s a known bleeder, I spoke to all his previous trainers (two prior to current) and all said he was a lovely chap and no problems other than occasionally bleeding when not fit enough. This little horse now has 8 hour turnout with some chums, a chilled out routine and is like a different animal. He’s LOVING life, becoming very cheeky and funny, even a little boisterous. He’s changed so much from the sad horse that stepped off the lorry it’s amazing and lovely to see.

I did not have him vetted, would have been more than what I paid for him, I checked him pretty thoroughly (however I am no professional) and he seemed fine. I actually hopped on him and took him round the block for 10 mins in a lightweight wintec and he was such an angel. Since then rode him twice in a friends albion though only in walk for no more than half an hour as I wanted a saddle fitted. Before I got the saddle fitter out I had a well respected physio out to see him. She found several points along his spine that he was sore, which she said could indicate kissing spines. She found various other soreness in his pelvis but I was expecting all this for a 7 year old ex racer. She said at the end, based on how he was moving, she didn’t think it was KS as he was no longer reacting once she’d done some work on it.

So I got saddle fitter out and he was fitted with a thorowgood t8 compact in a medium wide gullet, 17 inch as although he could jusssst take a 17.5 we want to leave room for if saddle does slip.

I’ve noticed the panels seem to only make contact with his back fairly far in, but I imagine due to his lack of topline and muscle/fat he won’t “fill” a saddle at the moment anyway. He has VERY long withers, no topline obviously, and every saddle I tried slipped back unless using a breastplate. I should add now that the saddle fitter has exceptionally good reviews (and on here as well), couldn’t find a bad thing about her and she is both a master saddler AND qualified fitter (did my homework!). He’s been ridden three times since then. Once is directly after fitting- this video here[youtube]HJcunZZaolg[/youtube] , where my friend popped him into canter and quite frankly I thought he looked BRILLIANT for a racehorse straight out of training, first time in the school despite being downhill. Lovely and balanced and fluid to my eye anyway. Here is a trot pic… on a very loose rein [youtube]Ga61OelVrl0[/youtube]. Second time I took him for a hack for 40 mins just in walk, on roads with a bit of hill work. Third time was the same hack. Anyway, I noticed afterwards his back was SO sore. I mean running my hands down this area (see pic) and applying gentle pressure should result in his whole back dipping and flinching and spasming. It seems more to be on his side about a hand and a half widths below his spine. Incredibly flinchy and sore.

I just don’t know what to do. I am hesitant to just blame the saddle as he was barely ridden previously to having it so you wouldn’t know whether it was saddle or just soreness building up. People on the yard are suggesting he’s sore because he’s using different muscles. I’m stressed as hell about kissing spines. I’ve insured him last week but any pre existing conditions aren’t covered and I highly doubt they would pay up if I got the vet out for suspected KS within a few weeks.

I just want to add at this point he’s been an ANGEL to ride. Loves his hacking, nice big long stride and powering up hills. Fine to tack up though a little girthy (but okay if done slowly and nicely and suspect mild ulcers anyway), stands for you to get on. He is quite coil/spring like to begin with but fine once he gets going. He seems to really enjoy his work and being ridden. Anyway, I am getting Neil Saunders ( chiro) out to see him at the weekend but I thought I’d ask you guys if you had any thoughts. I’ve attached photos of the saddle, and him so you can see the awkward shape, and here is a video of him playing in the school in canter [youtube]SNswjgRoRQ0[/youtube]

Maybe there’s something glaring I am missing but he looks sound enough to me? Oh and he’s in a hackamore as his teeth were horrendous and I want his mouth to settle.

I just want the absolute best for this guy, he really does deserve it.

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The saddle doesn't look great but doesn't look awful. What do you use under it?

When you palpate his back how does he react, and where exactly? Does he react if you palpate his hamstrings? Pectoral muscles? Girth/sternum?

A half tree racing saddle padded up will be very different to the new saddle, it might be a case that it's like going out in new shoes for a long walk, they do fit but they might feel tight and sore at first.
 
I'm not convinced on that saddle fit - the back is coming up either because the tree is too curved (new saddle time) or the gullet is too wide in front causing it to drop.

How many fingers can you get between the pommel and his back when mounted? I'm half wondering if it's too wide - going down a gullet size should help in that case.

I've nothing to add re:KS but he looks lovely and I'm so glad you got him :).
 
Do you think the saddle looks awful because it's totally, totally wrong or because he obviously has so much muscle to add that it will hopefully then sit better? It's brand new so I want something that will last! Equally its only 500 quid and thats pretty much my budget so sort of have to work with what I've got to an extent.

I have been using a half lined premier equine gp numnah, half lined with wool so fairly thick but very soft. On palpation the whole "side" of his back sort of dips inwards and tremors, even with a very gentle prod. Haven't palpated hamstrings, don't even know what pectoral muscles are (this is why I pay professionals :) ). Girth totally fine. Here's a pic, sorry its dark, of where he is most reactive. You can just see where the horse becomes wall I hope! Sorry it's the wrong way round too!
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druid said:
The saddle doesn't look great but doesn't look awful. What do you use under it?

When you palpate his back how does he react, and where exactly? Does he react if you palpate his hamstrings? Pectoral muscles? Girth/sternum?

A half tree racing saddle padded up will be very different to the new saddle, it might be a case that it's like going out in new shoes for a long walk, they do fit but they might feel tight and sore at first.
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MyDogIsAnIdiot said:
I'm not convinced on that saddle fit - the back is coming up either because the tree is too curved (new saddle time) or the gullet is too wide in front causing it to drop.

How many fingers can you get between the pommel and his back when mounted? I'm half wondering if it's too wide - going down a gullet size should help in that case.

I've nothing to add re:KS but he looks lovely and I'm so glad you got him :).
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Gullet size is totally fine. This saddle is a t8 compact which means it has a flatter tree than normal :( Saddler did say as it would was new the flocking would settle and compress and need adjusting in 20 hours riding time
 
MyDogIsAnIdiot said:
I'm not convinced on that saddle fit - the back is coming up either because the tree is too curved (new saddle time) or the gullet is too wide in front causing it to drop.

How many fingers can you get between the pommel and his back when mounted? I'm half wondering if it's too wide - going down a gullet size should help in that case.

I've nothing to add re:KS but he looks lovely and I'm so glad you got him :).
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Sorry just to say when I say gullet size is fine, I mean even when I sit on it I can get the required fingers in, it defo doesn't squash down on spine
 
I'm do a lot of bodywork and massage on tbs in training. The saddle will be fine with a bit of padding underneath until he builds up. It's not perfect now but if it was it wouldn't fit him in a few months time.

I'll send you a pm.
 
bless him, really nice that you are giving him a good home :)

As already said above, the saddle doesn't look great but you may be able to get round that with padding.

I wouldn't necessarily worry about KS quite yet as there are a lot of other reasons the back could be sore - new saddle - new ridden style - under muscled, etc....... if he is otherwise happy to be ridden, for now I'd be doing lots of physio/ massage and doing lots of long slow walk hack/ hill work to build up muscle, and then making a gentle start on the school work. Then reassess after that and if you're worried the muscle isn't building up well or you're getting behavioural problems, start to worry about KS then.

Remember with KS that even if you x-ray for it now, KS could show but the thing is whether or not it is actually causing any pain for the horse. From what you say, the back does sound tight and has issues, but they could well be muscle related. Horses with KS that have resulting pain about it do tend to let you know behaviourally.

If you're really worried, though, get a vet to x-ray and also nerve block out the back, if x-rays indicate KS. It's actually not massively expensive to do this so don't be put off getting the vet out necessarily.
 
I would use something like a prolite or memory foam pad under the saddle as this helps sensitive horses. Also, remember that, if you are just walking, your weight is stuck in the same place with him using the same muscles. Vary the gaits, change diagonal, some light seat in canter, etc so the weight distribution alters. Trot/canter is less tiring for the back muscles as you weight is more off the back.
 
Bear in mind that a very high percentage of racehorses suffer from gastric or intestinal ulcers, and that could present as sensitivity over the back. I would be giving him some chill time, do a bit of groundwork to keep him from going feral, and change his diet to low sugar/low starch (cereal). If that doesn't help, check his back for KS - racers are not allowed to express their discomfort, and we had one here, lovely kind little chap, who kept it under wraps until he couldn't bear it any longer then exploded into rearing. His spine was inoperable it was so bad.
Check out this site for alternative treatments for ulceration http://equinenutritionnerd.com/2014...tions-for-stomach-ulcer-treatment-prevention/
 
What a lovely little horse, I think he is going to be super (provided no major underlying issues).

I think if you are taking on an ex racer you have to be prepared for months of rehabbing them. I'd manage on the assumption he has ulcers, and invest in Physio.

Regarding the saddle, Id pad it out well for now.

Good luck with him. It's rare that I take a real liking to the cheap ex racers, but think yours could be a good un
 
ihatework said:
What a lovely little horse, I think he is going to be super (provided no major underlying issues).

I think if you are taking on an ex racer you have to be prepared for months of rehabbing them. I'd manage on the assumption he has ulcers, and invest in Physio.

Regarding the saddle, Id pad it out well for now.

Good luck with him. It's rare that I take a real liking to the cheap ex racers, but think yours could be a good un
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Thank you so much :) Just to update everyone I have decided the following- he's going to have at LEAST two months, probably three, maybe more with absolutely no saddle on his back or rider weight. I'm going to turn him away for a bit, and then do loads of groundwork, long reining, lunging over poles, leading him out on hacks off another horse so he's doing hill work without the rider weight, and basically just build him up from there.

The saddle is going back. I don't think its the root of his soreness but I don't think it fits and I'm sure if it was used for any length of time it would cause problems of its own. Chiro is coming out on sat, and he will likely be having both chiro and physio over the next few weeks (at very least one of them!)

The best thing is- KAY HUMPHRIES has agreed to come out and fit him next year. I'm so relieved as from what I've read and heard she is absolutely fab. Looks like I will be living on porridge for the next 6 months to pay for it, but I want this horse to have the absolute best start possible as he deserves it- he's so willing and biddable and I would hate to sour him. I think I could have a lovely horse at the end of it, judging by the attitude he currently has to work and life in general.

Thanks everyone for your help, I really appreciate it and I'm so glad I posted.
 
I think that sounds a really good idea and hope that spending time and taking it slowly will help. I have done that with mine and he did take a long time to strengthen up but it is worth it in the end.

Good luck and look forward to updates.
 
RachelFerd said:
Nothing to add on the saddle, but what a lovely horse - really nice type, and obviously sane too. You'll have a lot of fun with him :)
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That's exactly what I was going to say. He is really lovely.

Just to add my ex-racehorse is EXTREMELY sensitive to everything, and sometimes if I put too much under the saddle it makes it tight and in turn makes him sore. I bought an adjustable half pad (with the shims) and I adjust it as and when he changes shape. Although at the moment he's carrying so much condition I'm not actually using it!
 
Michen said:
Thank you so much :) Just to update everyone I have decided the following- he's going to have at LEAST two months, probably three, maybe more with absolutely no saddle on his back or rider weight. I'm going to turn him away for a bit, and then do loads of groundwork, long reining, lunging over poles, leading him out on hacks off another horse so he's doing hill work without the rider weight, and basically just build him up from there.

The saddle is going back. I don't think its the root of his soreness but I don't think it fits and I'm sure if it was used for any length of time it would cause problems of its own. Chiro is coming out on sat, and he will likely be having both chiro and physio over the next few weeks (at very least one of them!)

The best thing is- KAY HUMPHRIES has agreed to come out and fit him next year. I'm so relieved as from what I've read and heard she is absolutely fab. Looks like I will be living on porridge for the next 6 months to pay for it, but I want this horse to have the absolute best start possible as he deserves it- he's so willing and biddable and I would hate to sour him. I think I could have a lovely horse at the end of it, judging by the attitude he currently has to work and life in general.

Thanks everyone for your help, I really appreciate it and I'm so glad I posted.
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Fabulous post. I think at the end of it you are going to have an amazing little horse

The lunging etc will build his top line so that any saddle fitted will be a much more permanent and better fit

I wish you lots of luck with him

Do let us know how it all turns out
 
I have an ex-racehorse - similar shape long thin, high withers - the only saddle that fit was the Thorogood T4 which had was supported by RoR for ex-racehorses and muscle wastage - which happens to some extent as soon as you take them off the track. He is also on a high fibre diet alone, which has helped with ulcers and weight gain. Mine is also a complete gent and it was only after he bucked once on landing after a jump (he never bucks!) that we realised that his expensive made to measure saddle didnt fit him - the T4 was cheap and fits perfectly!!
 
I've nothing helpful to add but just wanted you to know that I too think he looks like a fab horse and hopefully next year you will be rewarded many times over for your patience now. Well Done you! :)
 
Just to add, my ex-racer has had saddle problem after saddle problem for two years, with similar flinching as yours has shown followed by refusing fences and then bucking… have tried four different saddles, all pro fitted, and he kept losing top line even with work!! He's been in a good quality treeless now for six weeks, and the differences is incredible, in his behaviour, way of going, he's now even starting to sweat up over his back which he has never done, and doesn't flinch!

He was another VERY high and long withered, short backed horse so hard to fit. All saddles we ever had needed some padding or other, but he was obviously sensitive enough to object eventually to everything. This saddle is the first that hasn't just stopped the behaviour for a short time, but actually seen a positive difference to his way of going.

I was never into treeless before this, but can't believe the difference...
 
Khalswitz what treeless saddle are you using? I'm also trying to build up my horses topline after he lost it all through having cushings, I'm using a saddle well passed out with shims and it's slowly getting there but I've never thought about treeless before and your post intrigued me!
 
EmmaB said:
Khalswitz what treeless saddle are you using? I'm also trying to build up my horses topline after he lost it all through having cushings, I'm using a saddle well passed out with shims and it's slowly getting there but I've never thought about treeless before and your post intrigued me!
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Currently using a Solution SMART jump I've borrowed from my boss, the Rigid-free ones, but they ARE expensive so I'm looking for an older model secondhand instead (although they're rare as hen's teeth!). My boss has used them very successfully with exracers for building top line as you just remove padding slowly over time rather than worrying about shape changes leaving you with a saddle that no longer fits and negatively affects your horse… and I love riding in it as I can feel EVERYTHING. He's properly stretching out in it too and feeling way more connected. My boss has ridden to 3* in them too.

My boss says once his back has built up I could go and buy a decent treed saddle that fits him well, but for building up his back especially as he is so hard to fit this is a great option. And, to be honest, he's so happy in it I don't think I'd go back…

(An extra benefit is that I can ride any of our horses in it, I just adjust the padding to suit each individual. When you're riding 2-5 a day as part of your job one saddle is SO much easier…)
 
Be careful to try before you buy with treeless. Some people love them, and others HATE them - I have personally not found them good on narrow TB types, and have only preferred riding in them on wider built horses. They aren't my cup of tea but do have their uses.

TBH I find with narrow TBs off the track (and I have had a few) you are best ignoring saddle fitters - fit something yourself that is well balanced but slightly too wide and pad up well with sheepskin direct to skin and a prolite (or similar) above that. Riding in walk causes more pressure than riding in trot and canter in a lighter seat. As hard as it is, try not to be over paranoid to start with - it will take time to adjust. When the horse is filled out and muscled up, that's the time to get a fitter involved (if you must). All the worst saddles I have ever had have been the ones that have been 'fitted' by pros (including some well known fitters) so I have to say, I am inclined to listen to the HORSE over the 'EXPERT' any day!!!
 
It is possible to hire the solutions saddles for about £50 a week I think, so that is a cheap way of finding out if that make suits your horse!
 
RachelFerd said:
Be careful to try before you buy with treeless. Some people love them, and others HATE them - I have personally not found them good on narrow TB types, and have only preferred riding in them on wider built horses. They aren't my cup of tea but do have their uses.

TBH I find with narrow TBs off the track (and I have had a few) you are best ignoring saddle fitters - fit something yourself that is well balanced but slightly too wide and pad up well with sheepskin direct to skin and a prolite (or similar) above that. Riding in walk causes more pressure than riding in trot and canter in a lighter seat. As hard as it is, try not to be over paranoid to start with - it will take time to adjust. When the horse is filled out and muscled up, that's the time to get a fitter involved (if you must). All the worst saddles I have ever had have been the ones that have been 'fitted' by pros (including some well known fitters) so I have to say, I am inclined to listen to the HORSE over the 'EXPERT' any day!!!
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I totally agree to try before you buy - I would never have considered one without the trial I gave it, and so glad I did!!! I do think treeless saddles vary in quality as much as treed ones do though, but people are less familiar with the brands, so easy to pick something that isn't good quality or not designed to fit the type of horse (your comment about not suiting high withers is a point my boss made - different types of treeless suit different shapes just as treed saddles do, so you have to get ones that fits!! For example she has several Solutions, some which better suit cob types and others for the TBs).

I found my TB far too sensitive for a saddle that didn't fit just padded out (ultimately if it needs much padding it just doesn't fit...) and he went from bad to worse, and despite several very good qualified fitters and saddles agreeing that his saddles fitted (as they were or slightly too wide and padded as you've suggested) he just got more atrophied over his back and sorer and worse behaved. Lovely now he's properly free to use his back though! However he is a very sensitive type, some others may be able to put up with more, or struggle more with how close the rider can get in a treeless.
 
I am actually only commenting on Solution saddles, as they are the only ones I have ridden in! Used to use them on horses that turned up at my workplace with a totally unsuitable saddle of their own - hence having ridden in them on lots of different horses. I noticed a huge range of reactions from the horses - some went much better in them, others went much worse! I found I had to remove the knee blocks most the time, as seem to be better suited to a shorter rider. No matter how much we adjusted the shims we couldn't get a reasonable fit on my high-withered un-muscled TB that I was re-schooling at the time, even with the most recent dressage model.

He was happiest in a shouldn't-be-acceptable old Stubben - on paper should have been a bad saddle, but in reality the horse was very happy in it - so I was happy to take his opinion on the matter!
 
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