I don't know what to do!

Firewell

Firewell

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My horse has become unrideable showjumping.
He is fine over one or two small fences. It is when we string a course together. He starts off Ok, nice canter and strides. Then by the 3rd or 4th fence he gets faster, he jumps beautifully.. really round and powerful but then he lands and just f's off. I cannot hold one side of him. He tries to buck but it's half hearted nothing nasty but I can't stear!!
I don't think he is in pain, I have treated him for ulcers just in case. Changed farrier, had a vet check, bloods, flexions. He looks the picture of health and happiness and he is calm and a complete pleasure in every other way.
My trainer thinks it is becoming a learnt behaviour. In her words 'he has an ego'. I am*wonky when I ride and therefore he is one sided to the left. My trainer says he tips his head to the left, runs out his right shoulder and he has me.
I am doing Yoga 3x per week and Pilates once a week. Every time I ride I take away my right stirrup but I am 8st and I am struggling. My horse is 16.2 and very powerful, athletic TB. He is an extremely confident jumper, will jump anything, off any stride. He would jump the moon and show off doing it.
We work on 2ft jumps on circles and he is fine, very calm. But I try and jump a proper course and he takes over.
I have spent a fortune flying him to the states, he is at an eye wateringly expensive yard. My husband has just got me a beautiful new trailer and truck. It is all hunter/jumpers and eventing round here and I can't get him round a course... I can't do a thing, we are out of control and I am literally pulling my hair out. All I want is for him to calmly canter round a 2ft9 course.
Like I said he's a calm donkey the rest of the time. Flatwork is beautiful, he plods around out hacking, I let my baby sit on him he's that quiet.
I don't know what to do.
My husband says two options.
1. Sell him to a stronger rider as jumping is in his soul.
2. Accept the way things are continue to have lessons and focus on dressage ect.
I love this horse. What do I do?! I have had him nearly 5years. I brought him on so carefully as a baby, I never frightened him. He was always bold but never stupid. He is becoming stupid but it is 90cm, he is never challenged. Is he just too cocky?
I ride him in a grakle noseband, full cheek snaffle and martingale. I could try a stronger bit? Thoughts?! My instinct says it's not a biting issue but a strength of seat issue.
What shall I do?!
 
Can this trainer not help you with his straightness? She should be able to give you exercises to straighten you both up. I am working with a brilliant trainer who really concerntrates on straightness as a first must and straightness and balance have such an effect on the horses way of going.
 
have you been in the states long? If not does he need more time to settle?

Perhaps hire an area and just focus on keeping calm - circling after each jump so he is calm before the next???
 
My mare gets wound up more and more with small jumps and trying to control her. She is much better when there is something to back her off. I have found a combination of jumping lessons, jumping a bit bigger, and doing tricky exercises has helped. We seem to mostly have reached an agreement - I am in control for the turns, if I leave her alone to jump.
Perhaps you need a trainer who will get on your horse sometimes and that way you can see what you are dealing with. Failing that, erm, eat more pies? :D
 
Have you tried videoing his jumping to see what is actually happening? Sometimes you can spot previously unnoticed things like the saddle moving, etc. If you think it is just him exploiting your lack of strength then it might be worth trying a change of bit, such as a Waterford. Have you tried stringing three jumps together and then do some really boring flatwork til he is totally calm, then jump a couple more fences, then more flatwork, then a couple more fences etc. So trying to break the cycle of him thinking that jumping a course is exciting and something to do a full pelt. To be honest, it doesn't sound like the problem is unfixable at all, from your description.
 
He also sounds like he has totally lost all manners and respect when you're on board. You can try exercises where you canter up to a fence and you have to stop before it, my friend did this with hers and it really seemed to help. He doesn't ime teach them to refuse, just teaches them that no, they don't always get to jump.

I know the feed is different out there, are there other options, is he just feeling a bit too good in himself?

Thirdly, shove a stronger bit in and get some respect back, even if just for half a session. Is he head up or down when running off? I would definitely be looking at a stronger bit if other options don't work.

Can you get someone else on his back to see if he does the same?

Eta my boring steady neddy can get a bit wheeeeeeeee! if we only do 90cm. Can you put the fences up to encourage him to back off?
 
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Sounds to me like you are careful and considered and trying a stronger bit wouldn't be a knee jerk reaction. I'm sure you'll continue to work on straightness issues etc. 'Bitting up' doesn't need to be an irreversible process. For jumping I swap between a snaffle, a rubber pelham and an NS universal and find just changing things up every so often helps. I think you'll be fine :-)
 
Not convinced about horses having an ego but maybe over excitement and actually maybe still pain (flexion tests would often miss a bilateral lameness or kissing spines, for example).

Videoing is a great idea.

Also can a stronger rider have a try?

For schooling, can you honestly say he respects and understands the bit even before you start jumping? Are there any gaps in that understanding?

As you are in the states, can you get to any clinics by Kathleen lindley? Google her - I have done some UK clinics with her and can highly recommend her for this sort of issue.

Really hope you get it sorted. X
 
I have nothing new to add as people above have said what I'd say, but just wanted to say I really hope you get it sorted. I doubt it's your size; you can still be effective even if you're the size of a flea. Persevere (safely!). Manners perhaps need to be reinstalled.

I'm looking forward to reading hunter/jumper reports :).
 
Assuming you have been slim for the 5 years that you have owned him and this is a new behaviour then something has changed.

Can you try and work out what?

Can your old instructors in the UK or friends watch some videos of you jumping him now?
 
Firewell said:
He starts off Ok, nice canter and strides. Then by the 3rd or 4th fence he gets faster, he jumps beautifully.. really round and powerful but then he lands and just f's off. I cannot hold one side of him. He tries to buck but it's half hearted nothing nasty but I can't stear!!

What shall I do?!
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Firstly don't panic, you just hit a training blip. I noticed you mentioned in the “Magical Cantering” thread that you’re doing things differently recently and you said yourself “funny thing is jumping feels beautiful like this, my horse takes us around meeting every fence spot on!” Without a video I’m only speculating but it sounds like he has learnt to use himself over a jump and this is resulting in him landing with the turbo engaged and the hind end is just powering him forward. If that’s the problem its not a bad one, he just needs to become more balanced to be able to cope with his new tuned up engine! A physically stronger rider might be able to use their seat and hand to collect him when he lands like that but if that’s not possible for you then you’ll need some alternative exercises like poles on the floor after the fence. Sometimes having something to focus on when they land can help them to sit back on their hind end instead of powering forward. I wouldn’t be worried about moving to a stronger bit, just for jumping. Little Flea might be able to advise with this one, this was an interesting thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...tiff-heavy-lazy-horse&p=12290432#post12290432
 
Bantry said:
Firstly don't panic, you just hit a training blip. I noticed you mentioned in the “Magical Cantering” thread that you’re doing things differently recently and you said yourself “funny thing is jumping feels beautiful like this, my horse takes us around meeting every fence spot on!” Without a video I’m only speculating but it sounds like he has learnt to use himself over a jump and this is resulting in him landing with the turbo engaged and the hind end is just powering him forward. If that’s the problem its not a bad one, he just needs to become more balanced to be able to cope with his new tuned up engine! A physically stronger rider might be able to use their seat and hand to collect him when he lands like that but if that’s not possible for you then you’ll need some alternative exercises like poles on the floor after the fence. Sometimes having something to focus on when they land can help them to sit back on their hind end instead of powering forward. I wouldn’t be worried about moving to a stronger bit, just for jumping. Little Flea might be able to advise with this one, this was an interesting thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...tiff-heavy-lazy-horse&p=12290432#post12290432
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Good advice from bantry :)
 
Thanks everyone! I have literally tried every sort of exercise and they all work fine! Then when I try and do a course it all goes out the window. Interestingly enough I am finding him very sensitive into a fence, he will react to any tightening of my seat. Over a fence he feels fab! And we are getting pretty good strides (when I have him settled and he's not going the speed of lightening and getting too close!). It does feel that any standing off a fence results in him really pinging and then I have no chance on landing. He is great over the fence maybe it is a balance issue...its putting me off jumping him though. I have a 9month baby, I don't really want to risk my neck trying and trying to work through this. We almost crashed and came down into the arena fence last night! We have a gigantic Olympic sized arena with 20 odd jumps in it and he can be up the length of the arena in a blink of an eye.
He's always been a bit like this to ride especially at a show but nothing I couldn't handle but he is much worse now.
If I was in England I would get his back and saddle looked at but they don't do that so much here (seriously it's like England 3 decades ago in that respect). There is only one chriopractor in the area and he is $250 and my husband has said No. Which I cannot blame him as I have already racked up $600 in vetsand $400 in ulcer supplements since I have been here. There may be a saddler so I'll see about that.
Things I can try are videoing. I'll see of I can rope someone into doing that for me great idea. I can also get a professional showjumper that rides the yard horses to have a sit. Hes a man and if my horse does it with him then I know there is more to it than just behaviour.
Failing that I can try change of bit. I always used to jump my late horse in a kimblewick and a rubber snaffle for everything else as I couldn't hold him in a snaffle jumping so maybe that will help.
I've never really needed a strong bit on this horse as he nornally rides so well just off seat and legs.
I am also riding a lot straighter now with this trainer than I ever have done before. She is on at me all the time about it, with different exercises.
Gah so much to think about! It's 3am here and I'm awake worrying about this. I had a show booked for next weekend and I can't go now, not when we are having these problems. So disappointed.
Thanks everyone
 
That thread is great Bantry thanks for posting, having a quick read it's almost the same problem. My horse is lazy on the flat as well :).
 
Are you throwing courses away to prove a point? So after each fence ride forwards for a few strides and then do a 10m half circle, or halt for 5 seconds. Before he gets to the point where he's using himself against you, so over fence 1 and 2.

Also, what bit is he in? Reg has started to be ridiculously cocky SJ, zooming round doing whatever he likes, and Al's upgraded his bitting to a pelham (for other reasons too- he seems to be more settled in it) and now at least has a modicum of control despite a similar small rider/ big horse issue...
 
I think you may be getting yourself disproportionately wound up about poss altering his bitting arrangement ;)

He is being fed differently (ie super hay!) and is presumably quite fit and quite poss just having a bit of a wahay moment at his amazingness to clear a fence so perhaps he just needs to know you are still there ;)
 
Have you tried doing the schooling exercises in a course? Only progress to the next jump if he comes back?

Also how are you trying to check him after the jump? You need to (big) half halt - release - (big) half halt - release. Just pulling will create a battle.

One exercise my instructor taught me was to stop after the jump (no matter how inelegantly). Get control back then progress to the next. Eventually you will be able to ask for the halt, and when he is about to offer it, give with the reins and allow him to go on. This will really sit him back on his hocks again...
 
Have you got access to a decent jump jockey who could sit on him and see what they think?

My gut feeling though is you have possibly changed your style of riding to maybe fit in more with the american way of doing things? So Jae is now having to re-learn his way of going perhaps? In which case it might just be a case of time & training, but in the interim a bit switch and a reminder not to be a rude little begger might not be a bad idea!!
 
Firewell said:
Interestingly enough I am finding him very sensitive into a fence, he will react to any tightening of my seat. Over a fence he feels fab! And we are getting pretty good strides (when I have him settled and he's not going the speed of lightening and getting too close!). It does feel that any standing off a fence results in him really pinging
He's always been a bit like this to ride especially at a show but nothing I couldn't handle but he is much worse now.
If I was in England I would get his back and saddle looked at but they don't do that so much here (seriously it's like England 3 decades ago in that respect). There is only one chriopractor in the area and he is $250 and my husband has said No. Which I cannot blame him as I have already racked up $600 in vetsand $400 in ulcer supplements since I have been here.
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It cost you a small fortune to get a (special to you) horse all the way out there and your husband has purchased you a truck and trailer, yet you can't/wont pay $250 to get the horses back checked when the behaviour he is displaying could well be down to a sore back caused by long stressful, standing, tense, hours of travelling?

speak calmly to you husband about why this horse is important to you and why the horses comfort and your peace of mind (ruling out pain) is more important to you than having a trailer.

i would get back and saddle checked no messing and would do it before the horse is jumped again then I would find the money to have those things done at least yearly the same as i would in the UK. no point putting the horse (and yourself) through all the stress of travel to then down tools and sell without checking stuff out. if there is no physical problem then do the flatwork and get someone else to work on the jumping? sacrifice your lesson money to get back and saddle checked maybe?
 
The reason I am loath to get his back done is there is a strong chance this back guy is no good... Also if my horse was sore wouldn't he be difficult allround? He's so calm and happy in every other way and schooling really well. No tension or hollowing. He feels amazing and he looks so well muscled and round.
I'm going to try a different bit, it's silly struggling on in a snaffle. Also I have never regularly jumped in an arena so big before, there is so much space! At home it was 2 fences squashed in a 20x40 so less chance to run away?!.
I'm going to have a look tomorrow at the yard and see what bits they have lying around to try. Professional showjumping yard they are sure to havea collection. Wouldn't that be nice if a change of bit sorted it, I'd feel so silly :p.
I have been changing my riding a bit, so he may be a bit confused by that but it's all about leg on and soft hands anyway, same idea really. I've been more aware of straightness here which is a good thing. :)
 
Another one who'd change bit! I am small & light, & couldn't hold either Catembi or Adrian (pre EPSM) jumping. One I jumped in a 3 ring gag; the other in a Myler combi or Cheltenham gag. Back to a snaffle for dressage. What I found with a stronger bit is that I only had to use it (i.e. haul on it) once or twice, & then once they knew I *could* haul them up if I wanted to, they stopped being so jolly headstrong & started being a bit more polite. I think it's maybe kinder to be able to have soft hands on the end of a strong bit than to have to saw away at a snaffle (not that I'm suggesting that that's what you're doing).

You can always change back, as others have said, if you try a few stronger bits & they don't do the trick.

T x
 
Given that the jumping feels good in many ways, are you sure you're not just unused to the speed? The first horse I had who could really jump, I had to learn to go much faster round a course. It felt very fast and simply meant I did not sit back and rebalance after a fence (the horse had a good, powerful, balanced stride by then) and actually pushed on through the turns. Watched on video, it didn't look fast at all - it looked amazing. If your horse wants to go faster (which might actually be a better speed) and you want him to go slower, that might be causing a fight and resulting in even more speed. It is obviously important he listens to you, but have you tried just setting off round a course and keeping the speed up? Does he just get faster and faster? Can you keep your reins quite long, make a bridge with them, and force yourself to let him keep moving on all the way around the course? I realise this latter might be challenging if steering is an issue - but if he is enjoying his jumping I imagine he would be quite keen to be pointed at the next fence?

If he really does just need to be reminded of his manners then I would put in an american or dutch gag and attach two sets of reins, using the lower rein to bring him directly to halt in between the fences if you have used the upper rein with no effect.

I am assuming you have done exercises such as six fixed 50cm bounces in a row on a 20m circle, etc.? Could you set up a course and have a couple of exercises in the same arena/field and simply steer him down a set of bounces/cavaletti whenever he starts to get above himself?

It is fantastic that he is feeling so well - don't give up.
 
Thanks so much for all these replies. Maybe I do need to be braver and let him power off. Maybe he is rushing off because he's fighting me. I think if I know I can stop or slow him up if I need to I will be braver to ride him more forwards?! Tons to think about thanks everyone!
 
Firewell said:
The reason I am loath to get his back done is there is a strong chance this back guy is no good... Also if my horse was sore wouldn't he be difficult allround? He's so calm and happy in every other way and schooling really well. No tension or hollowing. He feels amazing and he looks so well muscled and round.
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it may be a problem that is only painful on landing, something in the back that affects the shoulder, if you doubt the chaps ability you are really stuck though, I just would not give up on a horse you have invested so much in
 
Firewell said:
Thanks so much for all these replies. Maybe I do need to be braver and let him power off. Maybe he is rushing off because he's fighting me. I think if I know I can stop or slow him up if I need to I will be braver to ride him more forwards?! Tons to think about thanks everyone!
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That is exactly what used to happen with my mare - the chestnut in my sig, so you can see how much muscle she had. I could jump her in a snaffle, but at some point it always felt like we were hitting warp speed. I changed her into a snaffle and the fact that I could brake if I wanted to meant that I stopped trying to brake all the time.

I live in France which is also like the UK three decades ago for backs, saddles, etc., and it's really difficult being in a place where you're not sure how to get the right help or who to go to, but try not to worry too much, I promise you will work these hitches out!
 
You mentioned something in one of your posts that struck a cord with me. A number of years ago I had a horse who was extremely sensitive through his back, he loved jumping but if I wasn't completely with him he throw a bit of a paddy. My trainer often hopped up on him to see what was going on and each time would say, it's you, 'stop tightening your seat when you feel him starting to rush'. It took quite a while to learn how to react with a soft allowing seat but each time I did he improved and little by little he started to trust my seat and my reactions and his behaviour got better and better. I'm a huge fan of NLP and took a couple of sessions to really help me relax and go with him rather than tense up and go against him. Just something else to think about. But agree with all the check saddle fit, back suggestions :)
 
Has your trainer jumped him? I think it would be worth giving this a go, or another jockey, just so you can watch how he reacts with someone else. As someone else said, it could be that you are not comfortable with the speed he naturally wants to go and therefore unconsciously causing a fight - if he is jumping in a much bigger arena than he's used to this will be exciting him. Also, if you are anticipating him p***ing off after a fence then you may be tensing up and making it easier for him to take a hold.

Would definitely be interesting to see how he behaves with someone else on board.
 
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