I don't know what to do

[Mousesmom]

I've got a 17 year old OTTB gelding that I was told we were going to be 'given', I assumed this meant owned. They said when they got here he was actually just a 'permanent lease' and 'we wont want him back'. I don't like leasing horses, personal opinion, I didn't sign up for a lease. But I couldn't say I didn't want him when I saw him.
He was in shocking condition, emaciated, stressed, numerous health problems and behaviour problems. So I helped him, he is healthy now. Got him back in good condition, farrier did lots of work on his hooves, body worker did some work on him, treated him for worms and gastric ulcers, did his teeth, supplements for his joints, and work on his ground manners. I would have done work on riding too, it's just that he did not have any fitting gear (they told me his gear fitted, yeah right) and I didn't want to spend thousands on fitting gear for a horse I don't even want to ride, he also came with bucking and rearing problems from what I assume is the not fitting gear, so I haven't been riding him.
He is happy I think. I have two other horses I take on the trail, one I ride and the other I pony off of my riding pony, and he just follows along. He enjoys following us on the trail. Then he just lives 24/7 in a massive field with my other two. I enjoy seeing him happy, which is why I want to keep him, I couldn't forgive myself if he ended up in that condition again because I sent him back.
Why don't I just ask to buy him?
They tried to sell him originally. For 5000 NZD (that's 2500 British pound), maybe I am wrong but as much as I hate to say a living being is overpriced I consider that overpriced, and I do not have the funds to buy him for that amount either. He is 16.2hh, 17 years old, and OTTB, many old injuries, behavior problems too. So they got one buyer overseas but they refused to sell him to them. So they leased him out for free. One lady leased him that had been working with horses for 30 years, she was nervous around him. So they 'gave' him to us when I was looking for another riding horse, they thought he was perfect for me. I cant and wont pay that for him, and I don't know how they would respond if I asked to buy him for what I consider fair. Which is literally a tenth of the price they asked for when they were selling him.
How do I know all this? This person used to be my old trainer, long gone! I still kept a friendly relationship though. They give lessons to beginner/non riders and after teaching them for a while they sell them a horse, which is also what happened to me, one of their horses is my riding horse now. I stopped doing lessons with her just after she had 'given' us this gelding, and now she isn't being paid in lessons, and I'm scared they're going to take him from me and give him a rider that does pay them in lessons, and knowing how the trainer treats the horses, I really don't want that.
I don't know what to do.

 

[pistolpete]

See what they say! If they care a not about him they should consider your lower offer. Especially as he’s already with you.

 

[Trouper]

I can't quite get a sense of why you have become so nervous that they are going to want him back now. Have they asked you to buy him? Have they advertised him? If you are leasing him then they are getting some income from him I presume.

 

[twiggy2]

So they offered to give him to you then changed that to a loan?
Is he ridable?
You either keep the loan up or offer the money you feel is fair but either way I suppose there is a risk you will loose him

 

[canteron]

Look I don’t know the people but maybe you don’t want to go straight in with the buy option but attack it sideways!!

For example - say that there are costs associated with his long term care and as you don’t own him totally what are their thought on the costs, etc - and take it from there.

If you can then say you are happy to take on the full burden but need more long term security ……

Still dangerous but something like that would help assess their current thinking on the horse.

 

[Mousesmom]

I can't quite get a sense of why you have become so nervous that they are going to want him back now. Have they asked you to buy him? Have they advertised him? If you are leasing him then they are getting some income from him I presume.

Mostly that they have been getting income from riding lessons that I used to take, but have now stopped taking. So they are not getting any income from us anymore.
Nope, didn't ask us to buy him.
They have advertised him prior to the loan, but they haven't told us that he's up for sale currently.
They aren't getting any income from him, I just have him on loan whilst not paying anything to have him.

So they offered to give him to you then changed that to a loan?
Is he ridable?
You either keep the loan up or offer the money you feel is fair but either way I suppose there is a risk you will loose him

They said on text before dropping him off that they would give him to us, but when they were here they said permanent loan.
He is rideable and has jumped up to 90 cm and done low level dressage according to them, I have ridden him before and he's fine and able to be ridden, will just randomly start bucking like a bronco, which I assume is because if the ill fitting tack but I do not know.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

A permanent loan is just a loan. They own him and can do what they want with him. The word 'permanent' just signals an intent - it's not binding on either of you. I would have been very wary of taking on a loan who needed money spending on him and would have been very aware that the increased value might mean I get the horse right for them to sell on! Hope it works out for you but i don't think you have any claim on the horse. And he is 'worth' what he is worth right now on the open market. What he might have been worth when he came to you is no longer relevant really.

I hope they are just happy that he is settled and happy and you are worrying about nothing though. If they are planning to leave him with you permanently and you want that agreed they might sell him to you for $1 to make him legally yours.

 

[Winters100]

I would also be nervous in this situation.

The first thing would be to keep receipts for everything that you have spent on him. If you don't have from the vet etc ask them for duplicates. I am guessing that this amount comes close to the price that they are asking for him. I would also suspect some problem with his back, so if you can afford it perhaps get this diagnosed in advance. If it is a back problem you could make the point that they cannot sell him without disclosing this, and cannot use him for lessons. Hopefully the risk of legal action should someone get hurt would deter them from doing so. I would then approach them saying that you cannot continue to spend this type of money on a horse which you don't own, and offer to buy him for a token amount.

I would imagine that you would be at low risk of someone buying him for 2500 GBP unseen, so if they have a potential buyer they will have to either bring them to view at your place, or take him away in advance. Do they have their own land to keep him on? Because if they have to move him to livery this may also push them to agreeing to your offer.

I would assume that legally the horse is theirs, and that since you did not get their agreement on contributing to medical costs they have no obligation, so I would tread carefully and keep the negotiations friendly. You could even dangle a carrot, such as if they sell him to you, and if you can get him right to be ridden, then you will want to have lessons on him. You don't have to go ahead once you own him.

Good luck.

 

[Annagain]

Sorry I'm a bit confused. Are they advertising him for sale now or was that before you took him on? If it was before and there's no talk from them of wanting him back or wanting to sell him, I'd let sleeping dogs lie.

If they do want to sell, I'd agree but say you don't want him moved around unnecessarily so would they sell him from your place and then make sure you tell everyone who comes about his bucking - you're only being honest.

If you have a text saying they'd give him to you but they only told you in person that it was a loan, the other (slightly underhand) option is to deny all knowledge of that conversation, claim him as yours and tell them you'll either see them in court or you'll buy him for a token amount.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

The danger is going to be that you've "fixed" this poor old horse and he's looking a lot better, and you're afraid the owner's gonna want him back.

Feeling your pain and angst but don't know how to best advise you. If owner(s) aren't prepared to accept a token amount so the horse can be yours, and if you don't feel he is worth what they may ask, then this is a bit of a deadlock.

Well done you for caring, but sadly I feel this is a situation that may turn around and bite you on the bum. I've seen it happen in another situation with a friend who took on a horse, improved it/worked it, then owner wanted it back.

 

[Mousesmom]

Sorry I'm a bit confused. Are they advertising him for sale now or was that before you took him on? If it was before and there's no talk from them of wanting him back or wanting to sell him, I'd let sleeping dogs lie.

If they do want to sell, I'd agree but say you don't want him moved around unnecessarily so would they sell him from your place and then make sure you tell everyone who comes about his bucking - you're only being honest.

If you have a text saying they'd give him to you but they only told you in person that it was a loan, the other (slightly underhand) option is to deny all knowledge of that conversation, claim him as yours and tell them you'll either see them in court or you'll buy him for a token amount.

He was for sale before I took him on.

Do they have their own land to keep him on?

Yes, they do.

 

[Hepsibah]

So, he was for sale before you took him on then they took him off sale and put him with you. They've said and done nothing to suggest they want him back or have him up for sale again and you don't know what to do? Do nothing. Carry on as you were unless something changes.

 

[laura_nash]

Do nothing. Carry on as you were unless something changes.

I guess it depends on your attitude to risk. I wouldn't be able to live with the current situation, but then I wouldn't have accepted the situation from the start. No way I'd be getting invested (financially and emotionally) in someone else's horse without a proper written agreement. What happens if the horse needs long term treatment or worse a risky and expensive treatment vs PTS decision in an emergency?

OP any chance you could find something wrong that needs investigation or treatment and suggest to them they help with the cost, or sign him over and you'll pay? Maybe back x-rays or ulcer scoping could be needed?

 

[Mousesmom]

I guess it depends on your attitude to risk. I wouldn't be able to live with the current situation, but then I wouldn't have accepted the situation from the start. No way I'd be getting invested (financially and emotionally) in someone else's horse without a proper written agreement. What happens if the horse needs long term treatment or worse a risky and expensive treatment vs PTS decision in an emergency?

OP any chance you could find something wrong that needs investigation or treatment and suggest to them they help with the cost, or sign him over and you'll pay? Maybe back x-rays or ulcer scoping could be needed?

I'm not able to live with the current situation either. I don't do well with lease horses, I get too stressed. He's either going to be owned by me, taken back, or sent back.

I like that idea.
He does have what I assume is an allergic problem with his eye currently, owners say that he gets it regularly and that the vet has okayed it though. He also does have a bit of scar tissue that his formed on his back leg from a bad graze. Do you think either of these problems would be good/bad enough?

 

[Lois Lame]

I don't see a problem really.

I leased a horse to a girl once as the mare was just not a suitable horse for me (our personalities were too similar -- indepentant. I like a sooky sort of horse who I can protect with my amazing bravery). The girl took on the care of the horse, no money changed hands, and I sort of considered that she'd keep the horse. I never gave it much thought. The only reason I didn't sell them the mare was because they were not keen to buy.

One day about 2 years (or 5 years; I really can't remember) later the girl rang me up and told me that over the time she had spent quite a bit of money on the mare. Hardly surprising. But she seemed a little put out. She told me that really, I should give her the mare. I didn't have a problem with that at all, but I was scratching my head a little at her tone. I mean, she wasn't rude or anything, but just a little 'off'.

I told her that yes, she could have the horse. The year was roughly 198_. I don't know.

Incidently, years and years later, a guy at work and I were talking horses and turned out he knew a girl called M_____ who had a mare called Calypso, who was grey, about 15 hands, a little bit of Arab about her and was hard to catch. I said, "Oh, it's probably not the same M. She was an absolute knockout looking girl with the most incredible figure (no, I am not gay, not that there's anything wrong with that) and she used to be involved in body building. Well, it was the same girl, and he knew where my mare currently was. She now belonged to some other woman who had a number of horses who were living their days on her property (or some property). "Was she hard to catch?"

"No, I said, she was never hard to catch."

Anyhow it was her. Recognised her straight away somehow. She was old and grey with a few fleabites, still with that same lovely face she'd always had. She came up to us and the fellow was most surprised. But I said to him, "She knew we weren't going to do anything with her."

Sorry about the raving on. Why not put your mind at rest and talk to your fellow's owner, say you really want to feel like his owner, could you purchase him for 1 pound? Then do it.

 

[LadySam]

I’m thinking you’re worrying about nothing. From what I can make out from what you’ve said, although he’s looking and feeling better, he’s still unrideable with the bucking and rearing problems that you haven’t actually resolved, yes? I can’t imagine anyone forking out $5K for an unrideable 17yo OTTB. You can buy young, athletic, rideable OTTBs for that kind of money.

 

[Widgeon]

I’m thinking you’re worrying about nothing. From what I can make out from what you’ve said, although he’s looking and feeling better, he’s still unrideable with the bucking and rearing problems that you haven’t actually resolved, yes? I can’t imagine anyone forking out $5K for an unrideable 17yo OTTB. You can buy young, athletic, rideable OTTBs for that kind of money.

Agreed, the bucking thing ought to ensure he's not sold - in the unlikely event that someone came to try him it sounds like he would start to buck and possibly rear. I can't imagine anyone would pay for that. Tbh I can't imagine many people would pay good money for a large elderly TB with known previous inuries, even just as a companion. I can understand why you're not happy with the uncertainty of not owning him (I wouldn't be either) but I have no idea who (else) would want to buy this horse.

 

[Mousesmom]

Thanks everyone who contributed to this thread, it has helped a lot.

Currently the plan is to just keep him as a lease until the vet has to come out (being a TB I imagine that isn't going to be very long), and then contact the owners about the ongoing costs of him and try to buy him for our (IMO) fair price.