I DONT KNOW WHERE ELSE TO TURN, PLEASE HELP ME

Guido thanks for your useless and rather patronising response, How lucky you are to live in a perfect world and to know so much. Unfortunately I live in the real world and think that if op wants to keep the horse then ground work seems the way to go initially.

If you look I put 'dominate' in brackets. I don't know whether you have ever had the joy of working with Richard maxwell or anyone similar (though you are clearly so much better then them) you would understand the concept of working from the ground and being in charge of the feet. For your interpretation I guess that a different way of putting it would be to earn some respect from the horse,

I suspect that if OP sells horse on there would be a huge chance of the horse being sold down the line and you will be feeding it to your dog out of a tin very soon? With a little bit of useful help then they may well get somewhere as OP clearly has the sense to ask for help, the courage to deal with the horse and the empath to look at different ways to go forward. I say well done to OP.
 
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OP - a lot of people have been in your situation and bought a horse they had to retrain from one job to another, so it can be done. Your horse is probably doing exactly what a hunter is trained to do; he doesnt know that in the school means one thing and the hunting field will mean another until someone takes the time to show him.

However much experience you have of riding and years in the saddle, retraining is an art in itself and you should seriously consider about getting help.

If you have formed a bond and dont want to send him away get recommendations for a profressional, someone local who has the knowledge and experience to work with you both. You can stay in control and be assured that no one is treating your horse 'roughly'.

There are organisations like the Intelligent horsemanship website that have approved trainers or canvas the HHO community for suggestions, there are even professionals on here (and giving you good advice) who do this for a living...

Good luck
 
When a horse moves home and changes rider they can become quite dissorientated and take some time to settle down completely especially when being ridden. I always allow 2full years for a horse to settle down.
In view of the issues you are having with him my advice would be to take him off any processed food and just feed him grass and well soaked hay. I would also spend the next few month riding him out each day on some nice long hacks but keep him at a walk all the time so that he completely chills out and gets to know you. Then in about 6 months time I would get a good local instructor to help you both work within the arena and get his basic behaviour in the arena established. There are a number of very good local instructors in the North Herts area who would be only to pleased to help you. Best of luck and wlecome to North Herts.
 
JFTD said:
Agreed. My first thought while reading this was "why doesn't it have a standing on" :cool:

I reckon, as others say, you need guidance from a good instructor, or to send the horse for reschooling by a competent professional.

If you're not willing to do that, you'd be better to resell [honestly/ as a hunter] before you or the horse end up injured.
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A standing martingale is also a very common piece of kit on the hunting field so he may well be entirely used to wearing one. It is a cheap bit of kit to pick up and won't hurt him so it is worth a try, but make sure you pop it on while lunging him first time just in case he freaks out.....
 
OP what a horrible situation to be in. Well done you for wanting to contunue working with him. Sometimes its so easy to just sell them on. I actually think some of you are being very judgementel and unfair, just because she doesn't know how to long rein does not make her a novice rider. A novice trainer, maybe. OP I would look into sending him away to be reschooled or having lessons with him yourself. I am in a similar situation with my Horse at the moment, the more I school her the more I am starting to think she has never been shooled before. I had to teach her to lunge and long rein. But I will hold my hands up and say I am struggling to school her, so I bit the bullet and staring lessons ( first one is tomorrow, eeekkk) she is a fantastic little hacking Horse though and does try in the school. But we are very much motorbiking everywhere at the moment. I am determined to do this myself (with RI) as I feel it would be great for our bond and I can't wait to look back and see the difference. Good luck
 
You don't need to send him away for reschooling, get a good instructor to come and see you and let them have a sit. You obviously aren't equipped with the knowledge or skill set to deal with this particular situation so you need to find someone who can teach you how to, and help you through it. If you've never had lessons there might be a simple tweak to help you.
 
R.I.D said:
What are the circumstances that led you to buy this horse to begin with? Why did you choose him? How many times did you ride him before buying and in what situations? Did you ride him in a school/arena, in an open field, over walls/xc fences, over SJ fences, hack him on the road, ride him in a group situation as well as solo? If the answer is yes, then how did he perform then? Did you get a 2nd opinion before purchasing him & get someone more experienced to ride him
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All sensible stuff but in the real world buyers who don’t shake hands on the first viewing seem to be labelled joy riders and time wasters these days. Little wonder there are so many mismatches out there.

OP good luck with working through these issues, the trick is getting the right help at the right time. Don’t see it as failing, yep sorting your own issues is great but it’s way more important to recognise when you’re struggling and call in the A team. Hopefully you will be posting in the future about how this horse has turned into your dream ride.
 
Paris1 said:
You don't need to send him away for reschooling, get a good instructor to come and see you and let them have a sit. You obviously aren't equipped with the knowledge or skill set to deal with this particular situation so you need to find someone who can teach you how to, and help you through it. If you've never had lessons there might be a simple tweak to help you.
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Agree with this basically, plus other responses on here. The problem with "sending horses away for re-schooling" is that OK so horse goes away and is "re-schooled", BUT the rider AND horse are a partnership and BOTH need working on at the same time - else its basically a waste of money and after coming back, the horse is just as likely to slip back into the same habits as before coz basically the rider hasn't changed even though the horse might have been helped.

So I'd recommend getting a good instructor, who you're confident in, to help you. You can either send the horse to them (and go to their yard every day/all day) and be worked together, or get someone to come out to you and see what's happening.

If he's jumped the gate with you on top, there's deffo potential there heh??? He sounds like he's a big bold scopey guy who isn't fazed by anything; and there are people around who'd just love a horse like that ........ and/or there are disciplines where this is a definate plus not a minus! but sorry, I digress as OP has said she wants to stick with this horse, for now anyway.

Suggest look at feed (sorry, obvious one which others have mentioned); turn-out regime etc etc., but basically my gut feeling is that (sorry! - and trying to be polite here) OP may have, albeit inadvertently, over-horsed herself a wee bit??? But having said that, it would still be a good idea to get a competely non-biased professional in to look at the situation and give an objective view.
 
canteron said:
Guido thanks for your useless and rather patronising response, How lucky you are to live in a perfect world and to know so much. Unfortunately I live in the real world and think that if op wants to keep the horse then ground work seems the way to go initially.

If you look I put 'dominate' in brackets. I don't know whether you have ever had the joy of working with Richard maxwell or anyone similar (though you are clearly so much better then them) you would understand the concept of working from the ground and being in charge of the feet. For your interpretation I guess that a different way of putting it would be to earn some respect from the horse,

I suspect that if OP sells horse on there would be a huge chance of the horse being sold down the line and you will be feeding it to your dog out of a tin very soon? With a little bit of useful help then they may well get somewhere as OP clearly has the sense to ask for help, the courage to deal with the horse and the empath to look at different ways to go forward. I say well done to OP.
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Why on earth do you assume on the sketchy imformation given by OP that this horse is heading for a tin of cat food if she sells him in her first post she says she has already spent a fair amount on the vet checking him out so we should be able to assume that he is sound or the vet should have found something.
If this horse is an out and out hunter if he is marketed into the right type of job he may well end up with people who think he's great .
Nothing in OP's post suggests this horse has a 'respect issue ' it simply sounds untrained for the job OP wants it to do.
OP has a four year old child and she should not be trying to do things like long reining unless she is experianced at it with a horse whose behaviour in the school is unpredictable .
This horse jumped out of the school runs backwards when halted OP needs to be careful get help,and try to teach herself things like long riening with this horse.
 
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canteron said:
Guido thanks for your useless and rather patronising response, How lucky you are to live in a perfect world and to know so much. Unfortunately I live in the real world and think that if op wants to keep the horse then ground work seems the way to go initially.

If you look I put 'dominate' in brackets. I don't know whether you have ever had the joy of working with Richard maxwell or anyone similar (though you are clearly so much better then them) you would understand the concept of working from the ground and being in charge of the feet. For your interpretation I guess that a different way of putting it would be to earn some respect from the horse,

I suspect that if OP sells horse on there would be a huge chance of the horse being sold down the line and you will be feeding it to your dog out of a tin very soon? With a little bit of useful help then they may well get somewhere as OP clearly has the sense to ask for help, the courage to deal with the horse and the empath to look at different ways to go forward. I say well done to OP.
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Canteron, get back in your box.

If you bothered to look at any of my other replies you would see that I suggested going back to basics.
For your info, I have seen Richard Maxwell working and I wouldnt class it as a pleasure, clearly you do.

All my posts to the OP were trying to help her but you must be living in a bubble if you think "learning" to long rein with this horse is helpful to either the horse or OP

P.S - I will warn my dogs to check their food in future although I dont have quite as pesemistic opinion of this horse as you do.
 
Couple of questions. You say the horse has hunted in Ireland, but you haven't said, unless I missed it how big the horse is, or how big you are.
If he has been ridden by a man in the hunting field in Ireland, expect him to have been ridden by a heavy strong, very experienced, and slightly crackers person, and you won't be far off the mark in my experience!
Also, what is his routine, and how much are you feeding him?
I would not recomend long reining, personally, I have seen enough accidents with 2 reins to last a lifetime, especially with a horse that has come from that kind of back ground.
I will be honest, you say you have a four year old child, how long has your break been from riding? Having sharp horses, unless you have had them constantly, is not soething I would suggest for someone with children if I'm honest.
Get some professional help. People on here are unlikely to take kindly to being told if you get a pro to help they will be rough. I ride horses for a living, and barely tip the scales at 7 1/2 stone, so rough doesn't really cut it.
Good luck, personally in your position I would call the people I bought him from, and try and get them to deal with it. It is not entirely your responsibility, but your safety, and that of your child is.
 
I agree with above poster. I'm also under 8 stone and have made a living out of horses. Thinking any horse that leaves you and is going to be rough handled will not garner you any fans and people less likely to take you serious and want to help. While your horse does not need rough handled, he most certainly needs to know what is acceptable under saddle and what isn't. Notice this does not require manhandling or rough treatment. Just a different skill set than you have at the moment. Nothing to feel ashamed of or cover it up by thinking he may be treated roughly somewhere else. The problem is, the longer you leave it, the worse the problems will become and then you both risk injury. Then I'm afraid your horse really does have an uncertain future.

No matter which way you look at it, and I say this in the nicest way possible, you are letting your horse get away with this. I work with my husband with starting and reschooling. I never kid myself in thinking I can and will get along with every horse. If I feel I'm not doing the horse justice I have no issues in letting my husband, who is a stronger non abusive rider, get said horse turned around. Because at the end of the day it's about the horse, not me. Always remember that. Getting too emotional over something that can most likely can be rectified so you can enjoy the horse you love, requires you to seek some professional guidance. You've made sure he's not in pain and have got a custom saddle made to find out he needs professional schooling and yet this is a sticking point with you. I do not mean any disrespect to qualified good saddle fitters out there but if you find out from the vet your horse is not in pain, your saddle is fine. I know a woman who had 3 saddle fitters and bought "custom" in stock saddles from all 3. He is in no pain and yet money spent for the schooling he needs is always but off due to saddle expenses for cripe sake. Are there any saddle fitters that actually don't sway clients to buy a new " old custom" saddle?

At any rate, it's clear you love your horse. Don't wait to long to get some help. You very well may have a horse you can enjoy as well as love. Wouldn't that be much nicer?

Terri
 
All the people who have seen him, have none offered a comment, I know most won't say anything unless you ask for an opinion.
Personally I feel you should ask the vendor to take him back, you did not want a project, but that is what you were landed with.
There are few horses who do not benefit from re-breaking [aka re-schooling], because you will identify the problem, by re-breaking I mean starting off with ground handling and working up to ridden work in a manege. If he hates flatwork make sure he has plenty of gridwork, cross poles, lots of variety. I don't think anyone can cope with a difficult horse alone, even moving poles and making jumps, also it is probably not safe for you to work on your own with this horse.
Good stable manners for a start [you say you had to work on this], this is a given with any hunter, grooms don't have time to faff about with bad mannered animals. In my experience, very few horse are so bargey they can't learn to behave properly, but some need firmer handling than others. tie him up for grooming, he would be used to this when in a hunt stable, non of this fluffy, bonding and cuddling!
Walking in hand: a big horse so you may need a bridle on to keep control, I suspect this horse has learned to use his size and strength to avoid learning to behave.
Feed........cut back to hay=minerals only and 24/7 turnout if possible, he need to get rid of his excess energy.
Has he been retired from hunting due to unsoundess?
Long reining, get your instructor to do this for you while you walk at his head, he should be used to the equipment, and webbing reins not those cheap narrow reins which can cut in to horse or trainer. ask him for obedience, never ever give him the choice, you are the boss, and he has to learn this.
Lunging gives you less control but some horse are good at it, and seem to relax more, make sure he does transitions when asked, and do lots of them.
You are probably best looking for a strong, possibly male instructor with eventing experience, not your average RS trained instructor. The instructor should ride him for you, so you can see how he behaves, how it is sorted, and how far he needs to progress.
In the long run, I suspect you will have to sell him, having a family makes all riders take a different outlook on life, and this affects the way they ride.
 
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so I dont know what else it can be or how I can control him. I am concerned, as I can't do what I bought him for (which is to compete in local shows).
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Sounds like you've simply over-horsed yourself OP.

I'd pop him up for sale and buy yourself something more suitable.
 
Are you able to get in contact with previous owners? If so, quiz them and try to make every aspect of his life the same as they had him. If it can't be the same (e.g. You can't ride 5 times a week for 2 hours at trot and canter) then try to compensate, i.e with less and different food. In particular if you could get him back in whatever tack they used (what did you try him in?) then thats got to help... A straight forward snaffle isn't very mild with the nutcracker action. After you've done all that then I really do think it is important to get a good instructor to help you. You're obviously a gutsy and sensitive rider who just needs a bit of help to get a tune out of this horse.

RE the advert saying he would suit dressage, the cynic in me would question as others have if he hasn't sustained an injury when hunting which would make him unsuitable to continue.
 
definiatly unschooled, just a real real baby that has only hunted thus doesnt know what a school is or what you are asking of him - hence the runing away, naping etc. start by rebreaking him - basic lunging, long reining work. Dont try any canter work till he knows stop without throwing his head around. keep tack simple so he doesnt fight it, lessons short, sweat, end on a good note. He'll get there. Good luck x
 
My horse was pretty much the same when I got him last May 2011. It'll be a year soon that I've had him. He has come on loads, but it hasn't been easy. He was 5 when I got him. Loads and loads of issues...he would also refuse to pick up his feet (like yours), it turned out he had terrible thrush in his frogs.
MY approach has been VERY thorough!! I've left no stone unturned!, but it's because I wanted it to work. There have been times where I just about gave up, and thought it would be better to sell him. But I kept going. He is also a sweetie on the ground, very loving, and also loads easily.

Here is what I did:

1) Teeth, health, everything checked - all OK

2) Full set of Xrays - including back - all OK

2a) Had a second opinion from another vet from another clinic - still everything was ok, no issues.

2b) Equine osteopath came to treat him - manipulation and massage - he also told me the horse's weak points and how to build him up - I did this with lots of transitions up and down

3) Changed yards - it brought about some improvement because there is an indoor school with 4 big walls to contain him!

4) Had a nutritionist from Allen & Page come to assess - to determine which feed would be best for him given his anxious, lively temperament - put him on Calm & Condition, which has now been reduced to Cool & Collected. Be careful of starch levels, sharp horses should have a feed with less than 10% starch.

5) Farrier completely transformed his feet, this took time of course, I treated the thrush with iodine daily. He picks up all feet now without objection.

6) Bit assessment - I changed the bit from a KK ultra snaffle with lozenge, went to a Myler Hanging cheek snaffle which puts pressure on the poll, which in turn helps him keep his head down (instead of running around with it in the air). He likes the bit.

7) Saddle assessment - bought an expensive new custom saddle from a saddler...horse hated it, and bronced me off in this saddle. I had it checked several times,saddler kept saying it was ok, but after 3 months decided that I didn't need another hospital stay due to being chucked off, and changed to a new custom fitted Wow saddle. That made an IMMEDIATE difference. He was more comfortable in his back, and found it easier to keep his head down.

8) All throughout, I had help about 3x per week from a trainer

9) Started lungeing him in a Pessoa - this really helps!!! He rides like a dream afterwards! it helps him build muscle over his topline, and helps him move correctly - I do this about twice per week. Is there anyone you can borrow one from, and get some help to fit it to him, and some training in how to use it? it's best to do this before investing in one.

10) Most days I can get on without lungeing first (unless he give off signs that he's feeling nutty) - then he is lunged or Pessoa'd first to get the monkey / maniac out (again, lots of transitions)

11) Napping / stopping etc - this is still a problem, have tried various methods, but the only thing that prevents it is carrying a whip and giving a tiny touch on the shoulder if he stops (if I touched him on the backside he would have an absolute meltdown), also riding the trot very forward, at a pace which is just a fraction before canter - this helps in a lot of ways - it controls the spooking, it makes him focus, he drops down into it and cooperates and doesn't have time to think about being naughty.

12) Still was having some issues, so I had a horse communicator come to see him. She told me lots of stuff about his history which put a lot of his behavior into perspective. She gave me a calmer for him, based on Ayurvedic medicine, and some aromatherapy oils and intructions - there has been a huge improvement in him since then (that was about 6 weeks ago). The calmer is fabulous, it's a liquid, had an effect by the following day.

13) and for me... a calmer as well!! his antics gave me some anxiety, so I use Rescue Remedy before getting on, and also having regular training gives me confidence, and gives us specific things to work on

So, the approach is multi-pronged, and you have to be sure you WANT it to work. Do you feel in your heart of hearts that he is worth it? If yes, then you will continue and do everything possible to make it work, and you need to accept you're looking at 6-9 months to see a big difference. If you're not up to it, then it might be better to find him a new home and get yourself something more suitable.

Good luck!!! PM me if you want any help!
 
In my opinion one of the basic requirements of an experienced person is to know your limitations.
I've seen quite a few trainers at work & haven't been left with the impression they are rough, quite the opposite. There is no shame in admitting defeat, either sell or get help.
Have to say as a single parent from what the op has said I'd get on the horse happily, but by the same token I wouldn't consider getting on anything that I had to post desperate pleas for help with.
If you won't get help then other option is sell or retire.
 
guido16 said:
Canteron, get back in your box.

If you bothered to look at any of my other replies you would see that I suggested going back to basics.
For your info, I have seen Richard Maxwell working and I wouldnt class it as a pleasure, clearly you do.

All my posts to the OP were trying to help her but you must be living in a bubble if you think "learning" to long rein with this horse is helpful to either the horse or OP

P.S - I will warn my dogs to check their food in future although I dont have quite as pesemistic opinion of this horse as you do.
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Wow Guido, you are better than Richard Maxwell and can say quite openly that Long Reining is useless - must tell the Cadre Noir, bet they need your advice pronto as you know more than Richard Maxwell and the high classical dressage riders. What level are you riding at? Feel it must be at Olympic Level or Grand Prix dressage to be so opinionated.

Wow, you must be really famous and bet you have a huge following to boot? Where can I buy your books/see your tour).

(PS not going to read any replies as will be in my box, so have fun with your response).
 
Goldenstar said:
OP unless you are an experianced hunter and have ridden him to hounds you can't possibly say he hates hunting .
You are running into trouble because you do not have the skill and experiance to retrain this horse without the correct help.
You have a four year old child you need to wise up and get help now.
I fear the reason you don't know 'the fancy lingo is that your basics are not in place as well as the horses.
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Good sense and well said GS!!
 
canteron said:
Wow Guido, you are better than Richard Maxwell and can say quite openly that Long Reining is useless - must tell the Cadre Noir, bet they need your advice pronto as you know more than Richard Maxwell and the high classical dressage riders. What level are you riding at? Feel it must be at Olympic Level or Grand Prix dressage to be so opinionated.

Wow, you must be really famous and bet you have a huge following to boot? Where can I buy your books/see your tour).

(PS not going to read any replies as will be in my box, so have fun with your response).
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Just out of interest, are you allowed out in public on your own?

Long reining is useless? I keep scanning my reply and still cannot find that phrase.....hey ho, off to find some selotape for the lid of your box....
 
I've followed this thread & fear I too have missed the post from guido that claims long reining is useless? Or that he/she is better than the high classical dressage riders? Please could you come out of your box & point me in the right direction canteron? Please be quick tho, as I have to go up the yard soon, thought it would be sweet for my daughter & a friends youngster to both learn long reining together this evening.
 
littlelegs said:
I've followed this thread & fear I too have missed the post from guido that claims long reining is useless? Or that he/she is better than the high classical dressage riders? Please could you come out of your box & point me in the right direction canteron? Please be quick tho, as I have to go up the yard soon, thought it would be sweet for my daughter & a friends youngster to both learn long reining together this evening.
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Littlelegs, wait a minute, I need to go get some scissors to get the selotape of canteron`s box.

I also need to make a quick call to Richard Maxwell to tell him how to train horses....apparently..

I fear canteron is maybe at that time of the month....prickly is the word that springs to mind....
 
:eek::eek:! This is horrendous!

Someone I know has just returned her ex hunter because it made safe and common sense.

She is only a little girl, 19 years old and weighing less that 8 stone I'd say. He on the other hand, was a wacking great IDx lad fresh off the boat from Ireland. He's as sweet as you like on the ground, a real teddy bear, but the cold hard truth of it is that he's a hunter by trade and just to much for her.

Chances are there's nothing wrong with the OP's horse;) that some 6'5" gunhoe and totally insane bloke happy to yeeha across open country all day couldn't put right in an afternoon.

Stay safe OP and remember it is sometimes horses for courses and all that.
 
Good point, although I would up the dose of sedalin myself.....
Anyhoo, the Cadre Noir have been on the phone, apparently Richard Maxwell called them. Word on the street is that long reining is useless!!!! they are in a right spin about it.

Luckily they called me because I am the best rider in the world, ever, ever, ever. I was able to reassure them that long reining was useless, Richard was rubbish and that they should shut down their dodgy school.

All in a days work......Now off you go and make sure your daughter doesnt wear a hat when handling your pals youngster. Pop a bucket of oats in the beast beforehand and take a video of it. May aswell spice it up a bit..
 
I am in the process of retraining an 8yr old that had been a show horse but in reality had very little proper training. He used to fling his head up and generally charge around if he was asked to do any schooling work etc etc. Not much different to the ex racehorse I retrained last year in fact. In reality both of them really didn't know what was expected of them and they were well and truly out of their comfort zones. Patience and careful repetition with both of them gradually let them know what was expected and with that came a settling down as each of them came back into their comfort zones.

I agree on cutting feed out altogether and only having hay or grass.

It does involve going right back to basics and indeed it can be worse than dealing with a youngster because at least they are a "blank canvas". An older horse has got used to certain things and being asked to do different things is almost harder than learning from scratch.

And it all takes time, months and not weeks.
 
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