I don't want a cure for navicular

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Orangehorse

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I don't want a cure for navicular, I just want to prevent my horse getting it in the first place.
There seems to be almost an epidemic, with some quite young horses being diagnosed.
So what is going on?
 
lots of 'medicalisation' of poor management and/or poor trimming

I've seen 'navicular' diagnosed in horses with thrush, laminitis, and feet that just simply have long toes and atrophied and/or under run heels and sometimes a combo of the lot.

Particularly now the the practice of letting a horse spend several months without their shoes on each year has more or less disappeared. It used to be referred to as 'driving up the quick'. A somewhat bizarre expression, but the time off used to let the horse grow and trim the foot it needs - shortening the toe and beefing up the heels.

I guess that is what you get with an increasingly urbanised society which is steadily losing touch with the healing powers of nature and a ready eye on the bottom line.

Re your own horse

I went barefoot after a farrier ruined my competition horse and proposed shoes and pads for an unbroken two year old.

A different farrier suggested I go barefoot, and to walk the 2 year old up and down our (quiet) country lanes as much as we could manage. Best advice I ever got. I did and she grew great feet.

I've seen the same advice work for others too.
 
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LucyPriory said:
Particularly now the the practice of letting a horse spend several months without their shoes on each year has more or less disappeared. It used to be referred to as 'driving up the quick'. A somewhat bizarre expression, but the time off used to let the horse grow and trim the foot it needs - shortening the toe and beefing up the heels.
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I agree with this.
 
My horse is now barefoot and being treated by a cranial osteopath and a barefoot trimmer. His front feet were contracting as the knock-on effect of a bone spur causing him to shorten his top line.
Talking round the subject we came to the conclusion that there are no 'seaons' anymore. All horses are now either all-year all-rounders or on the competition circuit without a break.
Also I think we are in danger of becoming permanently detached from the horse as a physical entity and the old fashioned knowledge that kept horses sound and happy sans pharmaseuticals even if that involved 12 months run off.
 
i had a vet tell me recently that more and more horses are being diagnosed as having navicular because of the way the horse moves or stands (navicular type way/stance).
he also told me that he had done his own study on it after being asked for a second opinion on a number of horses diagnosed as having navicular.

he found that 9 out of 10 horses didn't have navicular but something else ranging from torn DDFT, abcess and many other things.

i went to him because i had been told that my horse had navicular and after examining and x-raying it showed he didn't have navicular. my horse is now barefoot though after a farrier crippled him and is doing so much better.
 
A lot more horses are TB types now too with that long toe/low heel predisposition and farriers seem also more inclined to shoe like this too - at least the ones in my local area seem to.

I also agree with the shoes being on all year and the feet never getting a break.
 
My boy was diagnosed with Navicular then 6 months down the line and an MRI it turned out to be his collateral ligament. He had a total of 9 months box rest but every time he went out into a field bigger than a stable he went lame. So then i decided to take him to Rockley Farm who deal with rehabbing horses with navicular and soft tissue damage to go barefoot, with in two weeks he was landing heal first and he is growing the most amazing feet, he has corrected the broken back axis in his foot himself and he can go out into a 5 acre field and gallop around and come in sound day after day after day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go take a look at Rockley Farm it changed my life, gave me back my stunning 8 year old warmblood. And to think that 6 months ago i was going to have him pts.........it doesn't bear thinking about.

Good luck.
 
Lainey123 said:
My boy was diagnosed with Navicular then 6 months down the line and an MRI it turned out to be his collateral ligament. He had a total of 9 months box rest but every time he went out into a field bigger than a stable he went lame. So then i decided to take him to Rockley Farm who deal with rehabbing horses with navicular and soft tissue damage to go barefoot, with in two weeks he was landing heal first and he is growing the most amazing feet, he has corrected the broken back axis in his foot himself and he can go out into a 5 acre field and gallop around and come in sound day after day after day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go take a look at Rockley Farm it changed my life, gave me back my stunning 8 year old warmblood. And to think that 6 months ago i was going to have him pts.........it doesn't bear thinking about.

Good luck.
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so glad you gave him a chance, I have similar story with Ted my 7yr old warmblood - he is out on permanent loan to my EP being barefoot rehabbed..he had collateral lig damage...good luck with your boy.x
 
proper navicular is rare i was told by two vets that my horse had this but he had collatral ligament damage i wasted so much money having treatment for wrong problem
 
Me too. Spent a fortune having visits and treatment for recurrent 'sprain'. Turned out to be LGL :-( Which of course some vets refuse to acknowledge exists.
 
LucyPriory said:
Me too. Spent a fortune having visits and treatment for recurrent 'sprain'. Turned out to be LGL :-( Which of course some vets refuse to acknowledge exists.
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I really don't understand their reluctance... it's not rocket science! It's like the difference between a mild headache and a migraine. Or even a very mild tendon strain and a great big hole in the tendon. Just a matter of degrees. Why wouldn't you get mild inflammation of the laminae either on it's own or as a precursor to a full blown, acute attack of laminitis?

I'd love to sit a vet down and have this conversation with them ;-)
 
LucyPriory said:
l

Particularly now the the practice of letting a horse spend several months without their shoes on each year has more or less disappeared. It used to be referred to as 'driving up the quick'. A somewhat bizarre expression, but the time off used to let the horse grow and trim the foot it needs - shortening the toe and beefing up the heels.
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I'm really glad you said this as I know no one who does this. I intend to do this with my TB who has had many unsoundness issues in the past. He hasnt been diagnosed with navicular, but with caudal foot pain as a result of foot inbalances - usual collapsed heels long toes.
He was remedially shod and prescribed bute for life - he was 1/2 tenth intermittently lame after remedial work.
With a new farrier he suggested I took shoes off. I also took him off bute. Whilst he was sound since then I couldnt work him as just couldn't get used to hard ground.
He's had shoes off for a year - and what a difference. I chose to re shoe him last week and see how he goes. However moving to new yard with no roads to hack on so they will be off again around xmas to give his feet a break.
I think if he copes without they will stay off, but if I do put shoes back in, he will get regular breaks from them - it really does them a favour I think.
 
Orangehorse, I don't want a cure for navicular either. What I want is:

1. For vets to get off their pedestals and learn, really learn, about skeletal alignment and how it affects a horse.

2. For vets to stop prescribing shoeing methods which are out of date and the benefits of which they cannot explain but continue to use because "that's what we've always done". There are (IMHO) better options than eggbars with the toes rasped off to nothing, the positive effects of which have been heavily researched and documented.

3. For owners to educate themselves about how a well-shod or trimmed foot should look and not keep using second-rate farriers and trimmers just because they are cheap. If the horse-owning public don't vote with their feet when it comes to standards then things will never improve. I see so many long toed low heeled horses which owners accept as "normal" because the condition is so common.

4. For the "barefoot is the only way" brigade to stop perpetuating this myth that farriers can't do anything more than what they misguidedly call a "pasture trim" and recognise that there are some fantastic farriers out there who are highly skilled, keep up to date with research into new techniques and will trim or shoe a horse according to it's needs and not on a whim. Yup, there are some awful ones out there too but the same goes for barefoot trimmers, as it does any profession or trade.

5. For the Farriers Registration Council to set proper terms of reference for trimming, using specific points common to all horses feet. I understand the well research document setting out such guidelines which was put forward to them for approval was rejected on the grounds of being "too American". Re-write the ****** thing if the language used offends you but for gods sake give farriers and trimmers an officially recognised standard to work to rather than just "a bit more off here and a bit less off there"!

If we had all the above then I'm pretty certain that navicular, or the more frequently diagnosed "navicular syndrome", wouldn't be nearly so prevalent. I'm neither pro nor anti-barefoot - I am very lucky to have a brilliantly conscientious and dedicated farrier who is at the forefront of research and application of new techniques and my horses are either naked or shod according to what is best for them. If owners would put more emphasis on quality than price they may find they spend more with the farrier but far less with the vet.

Rant over (for now!) :D
 
sally that was not a rant , i think it was probably the best written piece i have read in many years , i just wish i was as articulate because i agree with you 100%.
 
I'm very flattered by your comments ferrador but my post was more heartfelt than articulate. I am frustrated by being surrounded by horse-owners who suggest that I ought to give up my expensive (in their view) and "long-winded" (because he takes at least an hour to do a set) farrier and go with their because "he's so much cheaper and only takes half an hour". The fact they suffer extreme heartache and stress because their horses are lame a large proportion of the time, not to mention spending a fortune with the vets but are unable to make the connection astounds and depresses me.

I want to scream at them "WAKE UP PEOPLE!". If your farrier charges £50 a set compared to my farriers £75, how many extra horses do they have to shoe in a day to make a reasonable living? To do that, how many corners do they have to cut to fit them all in? They can't take time off to do enough CPD because they can't afford it. Who is getting better value for money? It's not flaming rocket science.

I watch with anger and deep sorrow as their long toed, low heeled horses come out every day stiff, sore and swollen legged on their distorted feet, toe landing, frogs cut away to nothing. My 23 year old high-mileage competition horse bounces out of his box, ready for anything, supple, four-square and sound and I thank my lucky stars that my farrier prides himself on being an educator, takes the time to do a thorough and professional job and will happily to offer explanation and advice to minds that are willing to accept it.

Would I change to the cheaper guy? Not on your life or my horses!
 
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if only there were more owners and farriers /foottrimmers that thought like you the equine world would be a much better place , but its not the case . cpd is not a money issue ,its an ignorance issue ,one must remember that whatever the profession ,to many know it all and think futher education is beneath them ,i personally think farriers should be re-examined every 5 years ,and trimmers should do the same 4 years of theory and practice as a farrier student and qualify through a recognised establishment and again be re-examined every 5 years . cpd should be compulsory not voluntary and examination at the end of it with a pass/fail certification
 
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What i hate is my farrier was my vets for two front shoes i travelled to him there at 60 pound horse box and shoes where 120 pound lasted two days as he was crippled with three absess and the farrier had the cheek to say that its was my horse fault my horse is excellent to shoe and stands like a rock and had never had a absess in his life
 
Call me an old cynic but:

Nerve blocks, investigations, reviews, 1 year of therapeutic shoeing....£3-5K - strangely around your insurance limit.

Barefoot, great diet and appropriate exercise - £0

I wonder why it's an unpopular recommendation?

It's npot just the vets and farriers - it's us as horse owners. We have to be doing something - makes us feel better somehow. :D
 
brucea said:
Call me an old cynic but:

Nerve blocks, investigations, reviews, 1 year of therapeutic shoeing....£3-5K - strangely around your insurance limit.

Barefoot, great diet and appropriate exercise - £0

I wonder why it's an unpopular recommendation?

It's npot just the vets and farriers - it's us as horse owners. We have to be doing something - makes us feel better somehow. :D
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I 100% agree with this, i am as cynical as you!
 
sally2008 said:
I'm very flattered by your comments ferrador but my post was more heartfelt than articulate. I am frustrated by being surrounded by horse-owners who suggest that I ought to give up my expensive (in their view) and "long-winded" (because he takes at least an hour to do a set) farrier and go with their because "he's so much cheaper and only takes half an hour". The fact they suffer extreme heartache and stress because their horses are lame a large proportion of the time, not to mention spending a fortune with the vets but are unable to make the connection astounds and depresses me.

I want to scream at them "WAKE UP PEOPLE!". If your farrier charges £50 a set compared to my farriers £75, how many extra horses do they have to shoe in a day to make a reasonable living? To do that, how many corners do they have to cut to fit them all in? They can't take time off to do enough CPD because they can't afford it. Who is getting better value for money? It's not flaming rocket science.

I watch with anger and deep sorrow as their long toed, low heeled horses come out every day stiff, sore and swollen legged on their distorted feet, toe landing, frogs cut away to nothing. My 23 year old high-mileage competition horse bounces out of his box, ready for anything, supple, four-square and sound and I thank my lucky stars that my farrier prides himself on being an educator, takes the time to do a thorough and professional job and will happily to offer explanation and advice to minds that are willing to accept it.

Would I change to the cheaper guy? Not on your life or my horses!
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Sally Ann my farrier was more expensive than yours and took almost as much time as yours and went on CPD training, and still he made a mess of it :( It's not as if I'm an ignorant owner, I talked to him about my horses' unbalanced feet but he simply could not see what I was on about, even though the frog was an inch off centre on one of them and the other's feet, superb examples when I bought him, were gradually moving forwards out from under his legs. I tried changing farriers twice. The first one left the toes so long the horse was tripping. The second one cut a toe clip notch out so far there was blood all over the floor. I went back to my original and his newly qualified apprentice and he trimmed a frog so far back that again there was blood all over the floor. If I'd had one with the skill yours has I never would have gone into barefoot (so actually, I feel grateful now :))

Your first post was absolutely spot on! Lots of people need shoes on their horses, I just wish they could all find a farrier like yours to do the job. Though I agree with you about the people you share your yard with who should be able to see what's in front of their noses :(
 
brucea said:
Nerve blocks, investigations, reviews, 1 year of therapeutic shoeing....£3-5K - strangely around your insurance limit. :D
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The vets first question these days always seems to be "Have you got insurance?". I have seen so many horses written off as pasture pets once the vets have spent all the insurance monies who have been returned to full soundness by correct (not corrective!) shoeing or barefoot. Is it any wonder we are cynical :(

I would like to see the horse-owning public conduct a campaign of complaint to the FRC. The Farriery Act is after all an animal welfare act. If some random stranger were to come along and draw blood from our horses feet or lame them then we would be up in arms so why do we accept it from so called professionals? I appreciate that often people don't want to raise a formal complaint for fear of being blacklisted by farriers but if those dissatisfied with the service they have received from their farrier / trimmer start deluging the FRC with letters, emails and photographs, perhaps they will finally wake up and see what's going on out there, some of this shoddy workmanship will be recognised and the perpetrators forced to raise their standards.
 
Sally your first post really impressed me.

In the days when we had a yard full of "proper" showjumpers and hunters, we rarely saw foot problems like these, but then the showjumpers had all winter off (no shoes) and the hunters had all summer off (no shoes) and when they were shod they were done properly. No long toes and low heels for them.

Nowadays hunters are supposed to be competition horses in the summer months, and showjumpers are lucky if they get a couple of weeks off in January.

A client of mine is currently in despair because her vet has diagnosed her horse with navicular "syndrome" (I do loathe that term:() - I have suggested she takes the horse to my vet who is 2 hours away for a proper diagnosis, and told her that I (and farrier OH) think the problem is a shoeing one, but she has ignored us and started the horse on a drug regime that is not only expensive but in all likelihood a complete waste of time:(

Another client though is taking her intermittently lame youngster down for a work up by my vet, because her farrier suggested putting bar shoes on her, even though nobody knows exactly what is wrong with her:confused:. Logical, eh?:rolleyes:
 
Rowreach, I understand how frustrating the situation with your client must be. Cynical old me feels that too many veterinary practices are now just money-making ventures with little desire to actually cure. Sound horses don't earn them money. :( They would rather spend a fortune of clients money using their swanky new diagnostic tools then do nothing more than prescribe bute or bar shoes. Hopefully the tide of holding vets in a god-like status when it comes to lameness issues is on the wane. Sadly, in order to keep the momentum going the farriery industry really needs to pull it's socks up in so many ways. My farrier uses a very good expression - he says he "shoes up to a standard not down to a price". He wrote this recently which I think has some very telling points in it about shoeing and trimming the modern horse:

http://www.equinefootprotection.co.uk/shoeing-with-regard-to-equine-welfare-article.html
 
a few years (3yrs) ago my horse started to go intermittently lame, my vet knew i wasn't insured for it and kept saying it's most likely the start of navicular but he actually refused to nerve block and x-ray, instead he kept saying to rest him on bute, started off box rest for a couple of weeks then my horse would be sound for a while, next time he went lame the vet told me to put rolled toes on him and turn him away for a few months and see how he comes.

i was really peed off that my vet assumed it was something without any procedures yet he was out to see my boy every week for over a year.

i changed vets and the one i use is fantastic, he knows i'm not insured, he treats my horse with total respect and does everything possible for him, he x-rayed his legs and was shocked at how well his legs looked, no boney changes at all. so he said that he could mri scan him OR we could assume it was a tear to his DDFT and treat accordingly. the scan would have cost too much to do to most likely say what the vet already suspected so i didn't go for it.
my horse has been out in a small paddock all this year and he's doing well.

i had a different farrier shoe him and i noticed my horses feet never looked quite right so one day i thought i'd put him barefoot and asked the trimmer to take the shoes off, when i saw the shoes i nearly cried. i showed the vet and he was amazed that my horse could even stand in them.
the rolled toe was more to the side and there was a nail going straight through the rolled part, within an hour of going barefoot my horse was happy to walk again.

he is footy now when walking over gravel but is fine on the road, bigger stones and in the field. if i can avoid it then i will avoid to put shoes on him ever again, the last farrier obviously made things worse.
 
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