i feel like im taking 2 steps forward and 3 steps back with my youngster....help me!!

Well I would do what another, higher-up-the-pecking-order horse would do, which is retaliate, not necessarily overly violently, but certainly very forcefully and possibly loudly, and also possibly involving the use of a stick since I don't have ears to lay back, teeth big enough to make an impression, nor hind hooves - all of which I have seen mummy horses use on their bang out-of-order little darlings.
 
Cortez said:
Well I would do what another, higher-up-the-pecking-order horse would do, which is retaliate, not necessarily overly violently, but certainly very forcefully and possibly loudly, and also possibly involving the use of a stick since I don't have ears to lay back, teeth big enough to make an impression, nor hind hooves - all of which I have seen mummy horses use on their bang out-of-order little darlings.
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Spot on post I learnt how to handle my young homebreds by watching the senior mares they don't hang back in dishing out discipline to yobby youngsters once I suss that all I had to do was copy them handling the yearlings and two years olds was simple.
 
I completely disagree with aengus' view that horses misbehave solely as a result of mishandling. I think it is inevitable for horses to offer an incorrect response at some stage during training, regardless of the quality of that training. Very few horses are capable of providing the correct response at all times, and very few horses are capable of controlling their own natural responses which tend towards the physical. When the incorrect response is potentially dangerous, I feel that a swift reprimand is the only safe approach.

I do agree that good handling is about reading the horse and the signals he gives, but I don't believe that a forceful (not violent or aggressive) response is necessarily a result of mis-reading those signals. In my opinion, a well timed, sharp response in a horse whose motivation for misbehaviour is not fear or physical discomfort, is the appropriate response and derives from skilled reading of the horse.
 
Agree entirely with cortez & jftds posts. Following aengus' logic a mare would only discipline a youngster because she'd misread the original signals or put the youngster in a situation it had no choice but to misbehave. Body language goes a long way, but same as with another horse, if my body language is ignored or challenged, I'll back it up.
 
Cortez said:
Well I would do what another, higher-up-the-pecking-order horse would do, which is retaliate, not necessarily overly violently, but certainly very forcefully and possibly loudly, and also possibly involving the use of a stick since I don't have ears to lay back, teeth big enough to make an impression, nor hind hooves - all of which I have seen mummy horses use on their bang out-of-order little darlings.
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Snap.
 
littlelegs said:
Agree entirely with cortez & jftds posts. Following aengus' logic a mare would only discipline a youngster because she'd misread the original signals or put the youngster in a situation it had no choice but to misbehave. Body language goes a long way, but same as with another horse, if my body language is ignored or challenged, I'll back it up.
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I'm talking about training horses as a human. I don't look like a horse and don't act like one. At times I smell like one, but they don't seem to mind.

If your body language is ignored or challenged,how do you know its being understood, and do you think about that before you 'back it up'?
 
oh dear - you sound a bit stressed out. cut out all the hard feed and the haynet especially if he looks in good condition and you`ve got some grass in the field. Leave him out to be a baby with his field mates. There is no hurry to do anything much with him at all. Dont try and over-educate him. Just go see him, stand around the field with him. Keep things nice and simple and easy. he will come right. sometimes less is more. take care of yourself.x
 
JFTD said:
I completely disagree with aengus' view that horses misbehave solely as a result of mishandling. I think it is inevitable for horses to offer an incorrect response at some stage during training, regardless of the quality of that training. Very few horses are capable of providing the correct response at all times, and very few horses are capable of controlling their own natural responses which tend towards the physical. When the incorrect response is potentially dangerous, I feel that a swift reprimand is the only safe approach.

I do agree that good handling is about reading the horse and the signals he gives, but I don't believe that a forceful (not violent or aggressive) response is necessarily a result of mis-reading those signals. In my opinion, a well timed, sharp response in a horse whose motivation for misbehaviour is not fear or physical discomfort, is the appropriate response and derives from skilled reading of the horse.
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I don't have a view that horses misbehave solely as a result of mishandling.' You're putting words into my mouth, again.

You should have learned from our last encounter that I don't expect horses to give correct responses consistently, and how I feel about responses as opposed to reactions, and how I feel about creating resistance in horses during training.

You do remember this, http://chathighlands.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=training&action=display&thread=2630&page=2 ,don't you?
 
AengusOg said:
I don't have a view that horses misbehave solely as a result of mishandling.' You're putting words into my mouth, again.

You should have learned from our last encounter that I don't expect horses to give correct responses consistently, and how I feel about responses as opposed to reactions, and how I feel about creating resistance in horses during training.

You do remember this, http://chathighlands.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=training&action=display&thread=2630&page=2 ,don't you?
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I do indeed remember that conversation, which is why I found your comments regarding misbehaviour and handling on this thread to be somewhat illogical :)
 
A couple of years ago I took on a project mare from someone who admitted having had her since she was a foal and not having been particularly firm with her.

She was incredibly aggressive, you had to carry a whip while poo picking in case she tried to run at you and she once bit my friend in a completely unprovoked attack and broke her knuckle.

We never completely dealt with her aggression but a couple of months of firm handling and the occassional smack made a massive difference. I never hit a horse multiple times, I never kick them and I've never hit one with anything other than my hand but I think the occassional well placed smack in response to aggressive behaviour is an essential part of training.
 
Yes aengus, I do think about if its understood, & it is, before I back it up. It's all very well saying they misbehave for a reason, & I always eliminate any cause or reason first. But when you inherit the issues someone else has caused, its not always possible to just avoid bad behavior by doing things right. And I have yet to have a horse that either fears or tries to bully me.
 
As I said before,I don't think the manner of the reprimand matters. A feeble human slap,a back up, a bite,kick or simply a squaring of the shoulders and a look,can all work,provided your intention is 100% behind your action and your timing is impeccable. If you watch a suberb horseman in action, you will see very little. Actions are swift and intentions are concrete.
 
I have even kicked him once, I was putting fly repellent on him last year and he lashed out at me - no warning - I kicked him back. He has never done it again and I can assure you he isn't scared of me in the slightest
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This.

I act like a horse sometimes, I will bare my teeth, stomp, lunge forward and I have turned my bum and kicked one of my previous horses before after he attempted to kick me. I've always found it to work very well, even though I do look a little crazy whilst doing it however IME the horses respond a lot better when I mimic their behavior whether I look like a horse or not.
 
ok so i havent got time to read through all of the posts that have been written these past couple of days but i just thought i would give you an update!!
i went up and brought my youngster out of his field on monday, he was a little bolshy so i gave a tug on the lead rope, a short sharp yank and he stood tall and then i asked him to walk on and he walked perfectly up to the yard! i tied him whilst i went to get his feed (no problems what so ever) i went to put the feed bucket on the floor and he striked out with his front left leg (i remembered what the majority of you said) and gave him sharp slap to his shoulder....i stood there and burst into tears because for the life of me i couldnt understand how smacking my horse about was going to help this situation, i thought all its going to do is make my horse more angry with me!! after 5 minutes of me crying and him staring at me, i attempted to put the feed bucket back down and he was as good as gold. my mum went up yesterday and today and said he didnt get bolshy on the way up to the yard and he didnt attempt to strike out when his bucket got put in front of him!!!
this is so hard for me because i really dont want to stick the slapping if hes naughty or strikes out at me but at the same time that short sharp slap seemed to work....i guess its a case of 'youve gotta be cruel to be kind'
 
I can understand it's hard for you if you're not used to smacking them :)

However, having dealt with a big 16.2 who had never been told off in her life I'm glad you did :o You horse is going to be a lot bigger and stronger than you soon and if you don't nip it in the bud now then you will have problems later. It sounds like he was quite shocked that you did it more than scared, and hopefully he won't try it again any time soon!
 
A smack now - which would have been more effective because it would be a shock for him, is SO much better than a prolonged argument someway down the line.
 
Don't think of it as being cruel to be kind, but of setting firm boundaries and making it completely clear what is and what isn't acceptable. He won't be happy pushing you around. If he knows that you are boss he can look to you for what to do when things get scary.

Paula
 
Conditioning cubes....eek they sent my boy nuts when he was a baby and he wasn't been worked!!

I haven't made the same mistake with my new baby but my mum fed him a small hanfull of pasture mix just once and the next day he showed me how high he could rear and how he could shake his head like the others and lift me off the ground !!

He hasn't had it again and hes good as gold by that i mean hes good most days but if hes had a bad day he is one moody little bugger!! :D

He is just young, its just a phase but it may also be to do with how much feed your giving him my lipizzaner just lives on fresh air and a bit of grass and has a bit off chaff when iv handled him! :D and he seems to be surviving with the huge gut he has on him!
 
trefnantblackknight said:
Conditioning cubes....eek they sent my boy nuts when he was a baby and he wasn't been worked!!

I haven't made the same mistake with my new baby but my mum fed him a small hanfull of pasture mix just once and the next day he showed me how high he could rear and how he could shake his head like the others and lift me off the ground !!

He hasn't had it again and hes good as gold by that i mean hes good most days but if hes had a bad day he is one moody little bugger!! :D

He is just young, its just a phase but it may also be to do with how much feed your giving him my lipizzaner just lives on fresh air and a bit of grass and has a bit off chaff when iv handled him! :D and he seems to be surviving with the huge gut he has on him!
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Also he started to nip me - friend in village keeps feeding him and its driving me nuts!! - so i just pre empt him and if he gets me i give him a firm no and a smack on his shoulder and if he bites me and i dont tell him off within 5 secs i just let it go as he wont know why im telling him off! but he is now coming out of this phase of nipping i just have to keep reacerting - i cant spell today - his boundries and hes fine ;)

sorry im not very helpfull!!
 
Also if you have seen how ruff horses are with each other in the field you won't feel bad for smacking him

half a ton of horse biting and kicking you is alot worse than a little smack on the shoulder!! :D
 
I usually use a poke in the neck with one finger as opposed to a smack they then learn to respect you when you point at them as they are expecting a poke then the reward for good behavior is a stroke as opposed to a poke boundaries need to be set otherwise a horse especially a youngster will walk all over you :D:D
 
JFTD said:
I completely disagree with aengus' view that horses misbehave solely as a result of mishandling. I think it is inevitable for horses to offer an incorrect response at some stage during training, regardless of the quality of that training. Very few horses are capable of providing the correct response at all times, and very few horses are capable of controlling their own natural responses which tend towards the physical. When the incorrect response is potentially dangerous, I feel that a swift reprimand is the only safe approach.

I do agree that good handling is about reading the horse and the signals he gives, but I don't believe that a forceful (not violent or aggressive) response is necessarily a result of mis-reading those signals. In my opinion, a well timed, sharp response in a horse whose motivation for misbehaviour is not fear or physical discomfort, is the appropriate response and derives from skilled reading of the horse.
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I'm on board with this- my youngster came to me much loved, and rather spoiled! She played me up from day one with her feet and with rugging. The first week was horrific as it was a constant battle. She'd resist everything with teeth and feet, and I was bruised all over. But I never stopped- I GOT IT DONE, although I had to growl, smack, and tie her up short many times. I started the ground work from day one too in hand, but if she threatened me with her teeth or hooves, I certainly did smack her, and backed her or moved her all over the place out of my space!!

By week 2, things were much improved- the corrections were sporadic by week three, very occasional by week 4... now I've had her a year and I can't remember the last time I had to be as firm with her, and she is wonderful to do anything with- and best of all she loves me too and follows me everywhere! So yeah I put her in her place but she LIKES that- most horses are much happier knowing where the boundaries are and I think it helps them trust you too.
 
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