I 'heart' Pete Ramey... everyone should read!

leaving.gif
 
soloequestrian said:
Or perhaps no-one will read it... ho hum.
I don't get the icon Oberon.....?
Click to expand...

I also
heart.gif
Pete Ramey as I appreciate the way he provides solutions to common hoof problems rather than skating over them. And he advocates shoes if he feels that's the best solution for the horse.

I am running away from the inevitable, "He's an evil, money grabbing, cult leader" posts that will appear on this thread any moment now
sigh.gif
.
 
Oberon said:
I also
heart.gif
Pete Ramey as I appreciate the way he provides solutions to common hoof problems rather than skating over them. And he advocates shoes if he feels that's the best solution for the horse.

I am running away from the inevitable, "He's an evil, money grabbing, cult leader" posts that will appear on this thread any moment now
sigh.gif
.
Click to expand...

And you also know how to get a heart without just writing 'heart'!!
 
He lost my attention with this piece of nonsense"Of greatest concern is excess sugar in the diet. Modern grasses and hays can fluctuate to over 30 percent sugar. Feeds are usually
over 50 percent sugar, with raw grains varying from 50 to 80 percent sugar.". Utter C++k!
 
I love Pete's articles :p if you see what I mean;)

He was the one that persuaded me to give barefoot a go with my navicular TBx.
It was the "if the horse is sore after a trim, you've done something wrong" - not "well your horse can't cope with barefoot" or "it has to have a bit of soreness to get the foot where it should be" attitude.
It is all so much common sense and sensitivity to the horse's needs and comfort.
I sooo wish he could come and trim my horse, ahhh (goes off into a dream)...
 
Mike007 said:
He lost my attention with this piece of nonsense"Of greatest concern is excess sugar in the diet. Modern grasses and hays can fluctuate to over 30 percent sugar. Feeds are usually
over 50 percent sugar, with raw grains varying from 50 to 80 percent sugar.". Utter C++k!
Click to expand...

O-Ooo - here we go - Oberon, you were right, I'm going to find my tin hat now:D
 
Mike007 said:
He lost my attention with this piece of nonsense"Of greatest concern is excess sugar in the diet. Modern grasses and hays can fluctuate to over 30 percent sugar. Feeds are usually
over 50 percent sugar, with raw grains varying from 50 to 80 percent sugar.". Utter C++k!
Click to expand...

It does sound a lot but I've just read some of the articles on Safergrass website and I bet Pete got his figures from someone who has done the research and can proove it with facts. From all I have read about him, he doesn't spout any old rubbish or "utter C++K" as you put it, unless he has seen proof.
 
He has taken all carbohydrates as sugars ,which they are not. Starches and complex carbohydrates should not be just lumped in with sugars .Fibre for example is a complex carbohydrate ,but it certainly is not a sugar.i suspect he used the word sugar in order to play upon peoples fears of sugars triggering laminitis.
 
Mike007 said:
He has taken all carbohydrates as sugars ,which they are not. Starches and complex carbohydrates should not be just lumped in with sugars .Fibre for example is a complex carbohydrate ,but it certainly is not a sugar.i suspect he used the word sugar in order to play upon peoples fears of sugars triggering laminitis.
Click to expand...

Perhaps he was in fact referring to non soluble carbohydrates?
 
Mike007 said:
Yes, but in the context ,refering to research on insulin induced laminitis,its rather a big mistake and tends to undermine his credability somewhat.
Click to expand...

He's not just talking about insulin, though, he was referring to the importance of diet in a horse's ability to cope barefoot. In that respect, a low combined sugar and starch figure is essential. Also, I believe some starches do promote insulin resistance. It is certainly advised that IR horses avoid diets with high NSCs. That said, I thought the latest research was that it is toxins produced by a change in gut PH that destroy the laminae?
 
Nocturnal said:
He's not just talking about insulin, though, he was referring to the importance of diet in a horse's ability to cope barefoot. In that respect, a low combined sugar and starch figure is essential. Also, I believe some starches do promote insulin resistance. It is certainly advised that IR horses avoid diets with high NSCs. That said, I thought the latest research was that it is toxins produced by a change in gut PH that destroy the laminae?
Click to expand...

I did find Asplins work on Insulin induced Laminitis very interesting(just google it, you will find it easily and unlike so much other work,no charge:eek:),but it is a wild leap from that work,especialy when he(Ramey) cant even get his terminology correct.The trouble is that there is so much research that hasnt yet been done and a lot of people taking wild guesses on equine nutrition. By the way its nice to find someone sane on here:D
 
The overall starch/sugar content is very important for laminitics and in fact all horses. Soluble sugars are all that can be partly removed by soaking this is why some horses don't seem to respond if the hay is very high in sugars and starch.
Starch is converted to sugars in the body...

No way am I going to ignore the importance of feeding low sugar and starch to my laminitic pony no matter what anyone says to the contrary. I know it works by her response and I don't want her in a permanant state of laminitis.

Whatever the discussion about mechanisms even the fact of insulin itself being dangerous to lamina integrity, the treatments and managements are still the same! lol
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Mike007 said:
He has taken all carbohydrates as sugars ,which they are not.
Click to expand...
He uses the NSC level. NSC is non structural carbohydrate. Which includes sugars and simple carbs in my understanding. He certainly does distinguish between sugars and carbs. :confused: Don't forget he is writing for us ordinary owners to understand and is firstly a Farrier not a scientist.

Hay for laminitics should be less than 10% NSC NOT just less than 10% sugar.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Mike007 said:
I did find Asplins work on Insulin induced Laminitis very interesting(just google it, you will find it easily and unlike so much other work,no charge:eek:),but it is a wild leap from that work,especialy when he(Ramey) cant even get his terminology correct.The trouble is that there is so much research that hasnt yet been done and a lot of people taking wild guesses on equine nutrition. By the way its nice to find someone sane on here:D
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip, I'll look it up. Proper research into equine nutrition seems hard to come by!

P.S It's been a while since I was accused of sanity ;):D
 
amandap said:
The overall starch/Starch is converted to sugars in the body...
Click to expand...

Not exactly. The gut flora ,even in the latter part of the stomach ,are very efficient in breaking down sugars to VFA s. Soluble sugars are a very different problem because there is the likelyhood of them being absorbed within the stomach and not subjected to oxidation by the flora.VFA s do not trigger insulin release. However your point about low sugar diets for laminitics is absolutely correct ,and I would certainly agree that starches are best avoided too.
 
Mike007 said:
Not exactly. The gut flora ,even in the latter part of the stomach ,are very efficient in breaking down sugars to VFA s. Soluble sugars are a very different problem because there is the likelyhood of them being absorbed within the stomach and not subjected to oxidation by the flora.VFA s do not trigger insulin release. However your point about low sugar diets for laminitics is absolutely correct ,and I would certainly agree that starches are best avoided too.
Click to expand...

Hmm, this wouldn't be my understanding of the working of the GIT of a caecal digester at all..... the stomach doesn't do much in the way of breaking down or absorbing - a little protein to polypeptides, but no sugar digestion. Horses then break down NSC in the small intestine and absorb as, mainly, glucose. VFA's aren't produced until microbial digestion in the caecum. Ruminants do it differently of course, but we're not talking about a ruminant.
Don't mind being told if I'm wrong about this, but fairly sure I'm not....
 
soloequestrian said:
Hmm, this wouldn't be my understanding of the working of the GIT of a caecal digester at all..... the stomach doesn't do much in the way of breaking down or absorbing - a little protein to polypeptides, but no sugar digestion. Horses then break down NSC in the small intestine and absorb as, mainly, glucose. VFA's aren't produced until microbial digestion in the caecum. Ruminants do it differently of course, but we're not talking about a ruminant.
Don't mind being told if I'm wrong about this, but fairly sure I'm not....
Click to expand...

There are inconsistencys. Normaly there is little Amylase production so sugars are often not absorbed in the stomach,but this is not always the case . Significant amounts of Amylase are occasionaly produced in some horses fed concentrates.Glucose is a tremendously energy rich molecule and easily fermented by bacteria. Fermentation in the nutrient broth of gut flora and partialy digested food does not simply stop once glucose is produced. Yes the horse COULD absorb it ,but it is unlikely that it will get much because it is so heavily in competition with the gut flora.(it would be a bit like hurling a suitcase full of £50 notes over a football crowd then sweeping the terrace after and expecting to find one:D)
 
Mike007 said:
There are inconsistencys. Normaly there is little Amylase production so sugars are often not absorbed in the stomach,but this is not always the case . Significant amounts of Amylase are occasionaly produced in some horses fed concentrates.Glucose is a tremendously energy rich molecule and easily fermented by bacteria. Fermentation in the nutrient broth of gut flora and partialy digested food does not simply stop once glucose is produced. Yes the horse COULD absorb it ,but it is unlikely that it will get much because it is so heavily in competition with the gut flora.(it would be a bit like hurling a suitcase full of £50 notes over a football crowd then sweeping the terrace after and expecting to find one:D)
Click to expand...

Sorry, but this doesn't make sense. It doesn't matter how much or little amylase is produced in saliva, the stomach of a horse doesn't absorb anything. So even if glucose is produced early on, it will still be absorbed in the small intestine. Of course it is easily digested by bacteria, but in a normal horse, very little to none would get as far as the caecum. The caecum would only get a large supply of NSC in the case of a sudden 'overdose' of lush grass or concentrate feed. The gut flora in a horse comes AFTER the major absorbtive part of the GIT, which is the small intestine. I can explain ruminant digestion too it if would help - they don't get a supply of glucose from the GIT because the bacteria in the rumen do use it all up, but horses are not ruminants!!
 
soloequestrian said:
Sorry, but this doesn't make sense. It doesn't matter how much or little amylase is produced in saliva, the stomach of a horse doesn't absorb anything. So even if glucose is produced early on, it will still be absorbed in the small intestine. Of course it is easily digested by bacteria, but in a normal horse, very little to none would get as far as the caecum. The caecum would only get a large supply of NSC in the case of a sudden 'overdose' of lush grass or concentrate feed. The gut flora in a horse comes AFTER the major absorbtive part of the GIT, which is the small intestine. I can explain ruminant digestion too it if would help - they don't get a supply of glucose from the GIT because the bacteria in the rumen do use it all up, but horses are not ruminants!!
Click to expand...

The point is that bacterial action starts as early as the last portion of the stomach where the PH is about 7 hence all the way through ,glucose is being mopped up by the bacteria.The gut flora work all the way through from the stomach onwards.
 
Mike007 said:
The point is that bacterial action starts as early as the last portion of the stomach where the PH is about 7 hence all the way through ,glucose is being mopped up by the bacteria.The gut flora work all the way through from the stomach onwards.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but from what I can find, it is a relatively small proportion of the total NSC that is used by the bacteria of the earlier part of the digestive tract (about 30% was the figure given), so there is still a large proportion being absorbed directly as glucose.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top