I know it's 'curtains' but...(laminitis abscess)

[Wagtail]

Firstly, my mare is enjoying 8 hours TO a day in the field and 16 hours in the sand turnout. She has no active laminitis, but now has a troublesome abscess. I can make her comfortable within minutes by applying a wet poultice and boot. She stays sound and trots/canters around with this dressing. BUT as soon as I change it to a dry poultice, she is very lame within hours. Vet said wet poultice for two days and then dry. I am calling him again tomorrow. Basically, I know I am probably going to have to say goodbye to my girl very shortly. Whilst I can make her happy and comfortable, it is not sustainable as she cannot have a wet poultice on for too long.

Background is briefly_ LGL on and off for two years. Cushings which is well controlled with prascend.

My question is, what can I ask my vet to do constructively? What could xrays show? She had two sets which were unremarkable. Last set were around 10 months ago. Is it worth having more done? To be frank it would help it would make PTS so much easier if they showed rotation or bone infection.

The problem I have is she is so happy and perky in herself. She chases her companion around the sand turnout (normal behaviour for her). Is into everything. Curious and full of life. Yet how can I sustain this? I can't, and I know I am going to lose her.

I know my vet would not advise PTS. But I think that it is fast becoming my only option.

 

[twiggy2]

am sorry to hear this Wt but tbh 2 yrs with low grade lami thats is now affecting her everyday life I would be buting up heavily and calling the vet tomorrow to arrange saying goodbye on your terms, my cousin got talked into surgery to severe her ponies tendons when his pedal bone rotated her never came right and ended his days on 4 bute per day (he was 13.2hh) and sweating buckets rocking from hoof to hoof to try and alleviate the pain. she so regrets not letting him go when he was comfortable and still had life in him-you can only manage some conditions with some horses for so long and we owe it to them to let them go whilst they are still comfortable and have some dignity.

<<<<<hugs>>>>>

 

[Buds_mum]

My boy was pts due to reoccurring laminitis, which when the acute attacks finished left 'gaps' in his hoof wall which allowed abscesses to form, so laminitis, abscess round and round.

I did not have the facilities you have but even if I did this horses retirement was being out, eating grass and being in a herd. He would not of been happy being micro managed for his soundness.

Vets wanted me to box rest him, I told them his arthritis would seize him up so much he wouldn't be able to lie down, which is all he wanted to do due to sore feet, easy they said we will double his bute, what about his liver said I, well said vets if it damages his liver we will face that when it happens.

I knew at 27 saying goodbye was inevitable, why prolong his life to out the worst day of my life off...?

Here he is the day before I said goodbye to him, too soon, nope.

Pragmatically speaking it saved me a lot of money in vets fees and a lot of heartache watching him struggle. In the end the day he went he was sound, if the vet had not known him and seen him at his worst he said he couldnt of done it. But it was right, you know your girl and what is best. You will have to say goodbye at some point, my choice was to say goodbye when he still had his sparkle, I could not let him break down in front of me.

 

[YellowBoots]

Don't give up on her so soon. My boy was three legged lame with his last abscess. It took a week of soaking to get the thing to finally pop. I found the small air activated heat packs over the poultice/under the wrapping helped.

 

[Yertis]

Is it possible to find the sore point and cut a hole in a boot pad and use a boot? This might take the pressure off the painful point. Also don't know if this will help or is something you would consider, my mare, EMS, Lami & CPL was on the point of PTS last autumn due to re-occurring abscess in left front which had been coming back for over 2 years. She had been barefoot for 11 years as are all my horses but after a lot of research I decided to try plastic glue ons, unfortunately her feet were so large that the Imprint and Eponas available in this country were too small. I contacted an American company and imported some that support heel, give frog pressure and quite a bit on sole, a local farrier agreed to read up and fit, she had an abscess blow after 4 weeks, we removed, treated and refitted and she came sound. 12 months on she still wears these, I remove after 6 weeks, her hooves are trimmed down over a week and the front shoes replaced at 7 weeks. She is back hacking and playing in the fields and has a new lease of life, she's coming up 20 in the spring and I am so glad I tried these Forgot to say, before the shoe is glued on glue is applied to the white line area where she has long term stretch, this is shrinking and the whole hoof has improved greatly, if you would like pics pm me with your e-mail.

 

[BlackVelvet]

Its so disheartening and i can completely understand how you feel. Laminitics can be like ticking timebombs and you never stop worrying about them.
I would speak to the vets first and discuss your concerns about the absesses. She still sounds like she has a good quality of life, alot of turnout etc.

 

[Adopter]

So sorry to read about the abscess, just wanted to send thoughts and hope vet has some options for you.

 

[Wagtail]

Thanks so much everyone. She did come sound with imprints (though she wasn't having abscesses back then). Unfortunately, at £150 a pop I just can't afford them on top of her meds which are currently costing me around £100 a month. Also, I have to feed her on Marksway horsehage as it is the only thing she can eat that doesn't set her laminitis off. And her Pro hoof and chaste berry are another £45 a month. However, it may be worth a go for a couple of shoeings to see if it settles her down. But I need this abscess to go first as it is right at her toe where any shoe would cover it up.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Nothing constructive to add but the strain of managing this must be taking its toll on you Although you are managing her really well and you may get her through this crisis my question is can YOU carry on like this?

 

[Worried1]

We had similar with a client's horse, was sound only with heavy poulticing. X-rays showed slight rotation and very thin soles. She is now shod with thick jelly pads and putty, instantly went sound and is now in light work. Might be worth investigating if funds allow. The pads can be reused as well.

 

[ATrueClassAct]

I know the feeling Wagtail old lady has taken a bad turn and her rotation is even more than last year. Like Worried1 said she is now shod again with those jelly pads and she is instantly sound. she was doing so well barefoot but her soles had become too thin and there isn't really much left to change in her diet, she has even organic hay which is very low In sugar. she's now got blood pockets on her backs so vet is out again today. Only thing is she isn't lame :/

 

[Micky]

Wagtail, please check out the facebook group PPID/EMS group and write what you have on here on there,( if you havent already) Andrea will be able to help you enormously, very knowledgable and helpful and the advice does work, all info about cushings/ems, diet, feet and turnout...please try before you give up on your horse..

 

[Wagtail]

Nothing constructive to add but the strain of managing this must be taking its toll on you Although you are managing her really well and you may get her through this crisis my question is can YOU carry on like this?

You are not kidding! She is such a strong character and we understand each other inside and out. I know exactly what she is thinking and I think she does me too. The thing is, I can tell she is not ready to go right now. She has a good quality of life and is only sore a few hours after the poultice is removed. Ant I can give her almost instant relief by reapplying the poultice. But I know I cannot keep doing that!

If I look at it from a selfish point of view, life would be so much easier if I PTS. I could get a new horse (currently have two field ornaments). But I don't mind sacrificing having a riding horse if I can get her through this. If she was stuck on box rest then it would be a no brainer for me. If I get her xrayed and it shows a deterioration of any kind then I would PTS.

But you are right. It really is taking its toll on me. I can't sleep, I worry about her constantly.

 

[FfionWinnie]

To be honest wagtail, this horse could go on like this for a very long time. There comes a point where you have to make the decision for your sake as much as hers. To have her pts now would be no reflection on you at all. She has had a good innings despite many difficult and expensive problems. Is it not better to let her go when she is happy, rather than wait until you have no other choice. Who benefits from that, no one really.

I have every sympathy as I have a diabetic dog who has been a loyal work dog all her life, she is only ten and blind, lots of health problems. I need to have her put down but I am stalling, and have been for a while. Its getting to the point where she is ill, I should have had her put down before it got to this stage.

 

[Yertis]

Wagtail, the shoes I import cost £24 delivered a pair (for extra large) glue £6 (cartridge does 2 sets) farrier charges £30. You can melt or drill out a hole easily to give access to abscess whilst supporting rest of hoof. if you have smaller hooves you can get Epona plastics direct from Germany which would be quicker.
Would a hoof wrap with cut out help? I have some of the inserts (improved wear) as KC La Pierre which I could send you if it would help, needs farrier or vet to apply for legality.

 

[Wagtail]

We had similar with a client's horse, was sound only with heavy poulticing. X-rays showed slight rotation and very thin soles. She is now shod with thick jelly pads and putty, instantly went sound and is now in light work. Might be worth investigating if funds allow. The pads can be reused as well.

Thanks. I will chat to my vet and farrier about those. My only worry is covering up the exit hole for the abscess.

I know the feeling Wagtail old lady has taken a bad turn and her rotation is even more than last year. Like Worried1 said she is now shod again with those jelly pads and she is instantly sound. she was doing so well barefoot but her soles had become too thin and there isn't really much left to change in her diet, she has even organic hay which is very low In sugar. she's now got blood pockets on her backs so vet is out again today. Only thing is she isn't lame :/

They really are heart wrenching when you love them so much. I hope your mare recovers fully. Good news that she is sound at least. Did you get xrays done that revealed the blood pockets?

Wagtail, please check out the facebook group PPID/EMS group and write what you have on here on there,( if you havent already) Andrea will be able to help you enormously, very knowledgable and helpful and the advice does work, all info about cushings/ems, diet, feet and turnout...please try before you give up on your horse..

Thankyou. I will take a look!

To be honest wagtail, this horse could go on like this for a very long time. There comes a point where you have to make the decision for your sake as much as hers. To have her pts now would be no reflection on you at all. She has had a good innings despite many difficult and expensive problems. Is it not better to let her go when she is happy, rather than wait until you have no other choice. Who benefits from that, no one really.

I have every sympathy as I have a diabetic dog who has been a loyal work dog all her life, she is only ten and blind, lots of health problems. I need to have her put down but I am stalling, and have been for a while. Its getting to the point where she is ill, I should have had her put down before it got to this stage.

I know exactly what you are saying, but I really am unable to do it whilst she is happy and her quality of life is as good as it is. It's just not an option for me. If she had to go on box rest, that would be a different matter entirely. I am waiting for the vet to ring me at the moment. Don't worry though, I won't let her suffer. I know her so well, and she is certainly not suffering. Obviously, if this is all I can offer her though, it is not sustainable. If there isn't a more permanent solution, then I will have to PTS.

Wagtail, the shoes I import cost £24 delivered a pair (for extra large) glue £6 (cartridge does 2 sets) farrier charges £30. You can melt or drill out a hole easily to give access to abscess whilst supporting rest of hoof. if you have smaller hooves you can get Epona plastics direct from Germany which would be quicker.
Would a hoof wrap with cut out help? I have some of the inserts (improved wear) as KC La Pierre which I could send you if it would help, needs farrier or vet to apply for legality.

She doesn't have huge feet so I will have a look at the Epona ones. The imprints are actually not too bad. I can by all the equipment needed and five pairs for £250. I may see if providing this myself will make it cheaper for my farrier to just come and fit them. I actually would feel quite confident doing it myself as I have watched him carefully five times whilst he fitted them. It would be the trim I would need him for really. Although it wouldn't be legal for me to do it myself I suppose.

 

[JillA]

I understand where you are coming form and that you don't want to prolong a life without much quality, but have you had a chat to one of the podiatry specialists like Rockley Farm? I know there are podiatrists in the US who have rehabilitated horses who have foundered, but it has been a long and tortuous process - sometimes I have wanted to just say let the poor horse go. Google Pete Ramey, his site has info and pictures about it. If she was an old horse you would have an easy decision, but I would hate to think in a few months time you came across one of these and thought "if only". They may suggest minerals too - Forageplus is very useful for that and Sarah Braithwaite who runs it is very very helpful.

 

[ATrueClassAct]

They really are heart wrenching when you love them so much. I hope your mare recovers fully. Good news that she is sound at least. Did you get xrays done that revealed the blood pockets?

It is so awful especially when they are well in themselves.
Kalyeigh went lame on one of her legs and we thought it was an abscess but vet came and said she wasn't happy with how squishy her soles were and as she scrapped abit of the sole off she found blood pockets on both front feet. They thought her pedal bone was sinking as it was very bloody but it hasn't, she only has 0.4 mm of sole so we have gotta be so careful now. She has the jelly pads and heartbars and her jelly doesn't go over the blood pockets. They have hardened nicely now her front soles. I did really wanna keep her barefoot and hopefully she can go back barefoot once her soles have thickened.
The hardest part for me is that she is an rather old lady but she's not lame and so well in herself.

 

[Goldenstar]

It's so hard when they are well in themselves .
You are her owner ultimately it's your call when the time comes .
This is the price of ownership if you like that at some point we will face making this call.
Whatever you do it will be right for you and her ,it's really just between the two of you .
Have a cyder hug from me.

 

[MagicMelon]

Its a tough one. Personally I wouldn't put any of mine to sleep unless they had lost that spark for life and looked miserable all the time. One of mine had bad laminitis many years ago - at one point he kept getting bruised soles and absesses as his soles were so thin. He got plastic glue-on shoes and putty stuff which covers the bottom of the sole completely - made him far happier. He's been lami-free and barefoot trimmed now for years

 

[OrangePepper]

I would like my vet to determine exactly what is causing the laminitis?
May I also recommend Formula4Feet which was developed by Robert Eustace the vet who secialises in laminitis and also set up the Laminitis Trust.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

Please don't think it is the end. My homebred mare went down with laminitis at about the age of six, she then had abscess after abscess in both front feet and in one of her back feet. I spent years and I mean years poulticing and soaking feet in buckets of hot water to make her comfortable. In between these bouts she was a happy horse so just kept going. She is now 20 years old and has been laminitis free and abscess free for about six or seven years. She is obviously not ridden but is a happy mare living out 24/7 with a little care and thought about her grazing. Don't give up if you can afford to keep going there is light at the end of the laminitic, abscess tunnel, my mare is living proof.

 

[ester]

I know you say that the cushings is well controlled (I presume based on ACTH testing) I just wondered if there is the possibility of increasing the prascend. Given that some horses with quite obvious symptoms seem to be able to have a within normal ACTH result (but symptoms improve on giving prascend I wonder if the same can be extended for those with cushings and apparently good ACTH levels?

 

[Wagtail]

I understand where you are coming form and that you don't want to prolong a life without much quality, but have you had a chat to one of the podiatry specialists like Rockley Farm? I know there are podiatrists in the US who have rehabilitated horses who have foundered, but it has been a long and tortuous process - sometimes I have wanted to just say let the poor horse go. Google Pete Ramey, his site has info and pictures about it. If she was an old horse you would have an easy decision, but I would hate to think in a few months time you came across one of these and thought "if only". They may suggest minerals too - Forageplus is very useful for that and Sarah Braithwaite who runs it is very very helpful.

Thank you. She is quite old (19) so I would definitely not box rest for more than a few days. I don't think it's fair unless the prognosis is really good. Thank you for the suggestions for gathering more info. I will check them out.

It is so awful especially when they are well in themselves.
Kalyeigh went lame on one of her legs and we thought it was an abscess but vet came and said she wasn't happy with how squishy her soles were and as she scrapped abit of the sole off she found blood pockets on both front feet. They thought her pedal bone was sinking as it was very bloody but it hasn't, she only has 0.4 mm of sole so we have gotta be so careful now. She has the jelly pads and heartbars and her jelly doesn't go over the blood pockets. They have hardened nicely now her front soles. I did really wanna keep her barefoot and hopefully she can go back barefoot once her soles have thickened.
The hardest part for me is that she is an rather old lady but she's not lame and so well in herself.

Gosh, her soles really are thin! But she must be comfortable now as she's sound. I never wanted to go down the shoeing route either, especially heartbars, but if they give her a couple more years comfort, then I would certainly go for it.

It's so hard when they are well in themselves .
You are her owner ultimately it's your call when the time comes .
This is the price of ownership if you like that at some point we will face making this call.
Whatever you do it will be right for you and her ,it's really just between the two of you .
Have a cyder hug from me.

Thank you, that is much appreciated! I have never struggled any where near as much with the death of any previous horse. Even though I loved them all, this one has been the most special animal to me. I suppose the others were easy (two broken legs and a colic). Only one right course of action.

I won't let her suffer. My head says PTS as I feel I am fighting a losing battle and it would be so much stress removed from my shoulders, as well as being financially liberating. But she is not ready to go yet. I don't want her to go yet. She has loads of spark and mischief in her. How can I just snuff that out?

Its a tough one. Personally I wouldn't put any of mine to sleep unless they had lost that spark for life and looked miserable all the time. One of mine had bad laminitis many years ago - at one point he kept getting bruised soles and absesses as his soles were so thin. He got plastic glue-on shoes and putty stuff which covers the bottom of the sole completely - made him far happier. He's been lami-free and barefoot trimmed now for years

You think the same way as I do. Good to hear your success story!

I would like my vet to determine exactly what is causing the laminitis?
May I also recommend Formula4Feet which was developed by Robert Eustace the vet who secialises in laminitis and also set up the Laminitis Trust.

The vet is flumuxed. She is so lean, her cushings is under control, she is managed in every way, correctly...

Please don't think it is the end. My homebred mare went down with laminitis at about the age of six, she then had abscess after abscess in both front feet and in one of her back feet. I spent years and I mean years poulticing and soaking feet in buckets of hot water to make her comfortable. In between these bouts she was a happy horse so just kept going. She is now 20 years old and has been laminitis free and abscess free for about six or seven years. She is obviously not ridden but is a happy mare living out 24/7 with a little care and thought about her grazing. Don't give up if you can afford to keep going there is light at the end of the laminitic, abscess tunnel, my mare is living proof.

That is lovely to hear. Thank you.

I know you say that the cushings is well controlled (I presume based on ACTH testing) I just wondered if there is the possibility of increasing the prascend. Given that some horses with quite obvious symptoms seem to be able to have a within normal ACTH result (but symptoms improve on giving prascend I wonder if the same can be extended for those with cushings and apparently good ACTH levels?

Yes her ACTH is 19. She does not have any symptoms such as thick or curly coat, pot belly, sagging back, lethargy etc. So I really don't want to up her prascend. I added the angus castus to her diet though and she hasn't had laminitis since doing that. It's just the damage that previous LGL has done to her feet that have made her susceptible to abscesses. If I could only get it to pop...

 

[BWa]

Wagtail I have read a lot of what you have been through with both your horses, and you have got further than I would have. You have had a long period of worry, expense and quite frankly missing out on the fun parts. I commend you for trying so hard but I know what I would do at this stage.

 

[MiniMilton]

Yes life would be easier if she was PTS, but would you sleep any better? I struggled on with my mare for years and I finally got it right. She is now 19 and she could potentially have another 10 years or more enjoying life. My friend PTS her lami pony and she still mentions regret that she didn't try a few more management options.

Obviously if you feel like you have exhausted all options that you are prepared to try, then pts. However your agonising over the decision reminds me of me for so many years. I'm glad I persevered.

I think I've mentioned this to you before but a track system was my (her) life saver. Could the grains of sand be penetrating the white line and travelling up the hoof causing pain?

 

[Mudfukkle]

Sorry to hear about her feet WT it's such a dilemma when they are so well in themselves.

You are made of stronger stuff than me, as my mare is in a similar situation to your own, but I have made myself a promise that at the first sign of any problems such as lami, abscesses etc, I will pts as I know I cannot go through, or put her through, what we had to go through last year.

You know your own mare though, and from reading your posts she does still have a quality of life, that if you can manage to get on top of, she could come good?

I also wondered though, if the sand was causing her sensitive feet some abrasion? The sand particles are so small and could get into the smallest hole/crack and agravate her feet causing an abscess. Only a thought?

I can't offer any magic solution I'm afraid, I just hope you can get the abscess to burst and give your girly some relief.

Good luck, keep us informed, I hope you get her right x

 

[cptrayes]

Wagtail I have read a lot of what you have been through with both your horses, and you have got further than I would have. You have had a long period of worry, expense and quite frankly missing out on the fun parts. I commend you for trying so hard but I know what I would do at this stage.

Ditto.

 

[Goldenstar]

Wagtail I have read a lot of what you have been through with both your horses, and you have got further than I would have. You have had a long period of worry, expense and quite frankly missing out on the fun parts. I commend you for trying so hard but I know what I would do at this stage.

And I would too but it seems to get harder as you get older at least it has for me.

 

[Wagtail]

Wagtail I have read a lot of what you have been through with both your horses, and you have got further than I would have. You have had a long period of worry, expense and quite frankly missing out on the fun parts. I commend you for trying so hard but I know what I would do at this stage.

Ditto.

And I would too but it seems to get harder as you get older at least it has for me.

Yes, I know. I can hear you sighing. And you are not wrong. But having just been to poo pick her field, I know she is a long way from being ready to die. She marched around following me everywhere, trying to distract me. Presenting her bottom for a scratch, knocking over the (full wheelbarrow). Then trotting off to beat me to the gate. And I knew beyond a doubt that she is not ready to go. It may be that she may HAVE to go if we can't beat this abscess. But I have to try. I would beat myself up if I didn't.

Yes life would be easier if she was PTS, but would you sleep any better? I struggled on with my mare for years and I finally got it right. She is now 19 and she could potentially have another 10 years or more enjoying life. My friend PTS her lami pony and she still mentions regret that she didn't try a few more management options.

Obviously if you feel like you have exhausted all options that you are prepared to try, then pts. However your agonising over the decision reminds me of me for so many years. I'm glad I persevered.

I think I've mentioned this to you before but a track system was my (her) life saver. Could the grains of sand be penetrating the white line and travelling up the hoof causing pain?

Yes, if I still have her next Spring, I will be doing that. You are right, that if I put her to sleep now, I would not feel I had exhausted all the options. I think she told me in no uncertain terms that she was a happy girl this afternoon.

Sorry to hear about her feet WT it's such a dilemma when they are so well in themselves.

You are made of stronger stuff than me, as my mare is in a similar situation to your own, but I have made myself a promise that at the first sign of any problems such as lami, abscesses etc, I will pts as I know I cannot go through, or put her through, what we had to go through last year.

You know your own mare though, and from reading your posts she does still have a quality of life, that if you can manage to get on top of, she could come good?

I also wondered though, if the sand was causing her sensitive feet some abrasion? The sand particles are so small and could get into the smallest hole/crack and agravate her feet causing an abscess. Only a thought?

I can't offer any magic solution I'm afraid, I just hope you can get the abscess to burst and give your girly some relief.

Good luck, keep us informed, I hope you get her right x

It could be the sand, though the vet thought that it was better than mud. I think that if I can get her over this abscess (and it's a big if), I will look into some kind of shoeing solution, preferably glue-ons. She stayed really sound in the few months she had them.