i may get shot down for this!!

well for instance the police regard the horse world as a civil matter as there are few laws but to own a shotgun for instance I believe you need a licence...if found in possetion you face criminal procedure if your found to have red diesel in your tank you can be prosecuted etc..so maybe if a law was passed yes there would be those who ignored it but if found could be prosecuted as it would be a criminal offence ! at min... most animal welfare is a mine field as no-one wants to get involved. So those ignoring can get away with it as they face no criminal offences !

I mean theft is theft but if its a horse its different its a civil matter !

Pearlsasinger I don't get your comment search it??
 
Pale Rider said:
150 quid for a passport payable by the breeder might put a few off breeding.
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Yeak ok :rolleyes:
Ever seen a horse from a certain community of certain people with a ruddy passport?
Why do you think its so hard for RSPCA/Police/WHW to trace the owners of dumped foals and horses? Its because the ******s are not chipped, therefore not passported!

A GOOD breeder will want his/her stock to have a passport regardless of cost (which would have to be added to the price of the foal) in order to register the breeding of said animal.

And FWIW....
£30 call out
£20 to fill out the sillhouette
£30 to microchip
£xxx to passport issuer

Not too far off that now for the majority of good breeders!
 
150 for a passport payable by the breeder. Palehorse.

When you buy a registered foal then the breeder HAS paid out already. All mine are registered with a breed society, not just some hole in the wall passport agency.
 
@rainbowdash full livery isn't a welfare issue. It is the cheap DIY yards with no supervision, the rented fields and the horses kept in gardens that are a worry. At least at full livery a horse's basic needs are met however novice the owner. If all novices kept their horses at full or part livery then horses would be far better off.
 
I do agree with OP, the explosion in recent years of equine keeping is quite upsetting.

There are so many horses and ponies left in unsuitable places, with no obvious water or food, or else on poached paddocks with no grass left. Feet looking untrimmed etc. It upsets me every time I see it. I have contacted welfare organisations in past when I have seen really bad things.

Did anyone else see something some months ago on TV about project in NE to geld colts, worm ponies etc. organised by local police force in an area where ponies were grazed tethered on grass areas in a housing estate. I can also remember to camera going round the estate and there being ponies in backyards.

It will take the welfare organisations working together to come up with new ideas and actions to improve situation, working to inform people so they do not take on animals they can not either keep properly or afford.

I was interested in the news that BHS have trained people to support those with older horses and ponies who need to be pts, this seems a positive step to me given that older horses and ponies sometimes need expensive specialised care people can not afford and hopefully will avoid some suffering.
 
Enfys said:
150 for a passport payable by the breeder. Palehorse.

When you buy a registered foal then the breeder HAS paid out already. All mine are registered with a breed society, not just some hole in the wall passport agency.
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Mine are all with the AQHA so I'm not really up on what it costs to passport cross breds, Make it more expensive then, pass on the cost.
 
I don't think that in the majority of cases it is the low end breeders who are giving them away for free or dumping them, low end breeders are more likely to be sending anything that doesn't sell privately en masse either to the sales or even straight to the abbatoir. It's usually after some misguided fool has 'rescued' it & realised they can't cope they are given away free or sold for peanuts.
I'm not sure how or if it would work, but would it be feasible to impose fines if more than a certain % of a breeders stock end up at an abbatoir within a fixed time period? But that would only work with a failsafe passport scheme.
 
I personally think there needs to be a law in the breeding..therefore those who will undoubtedly break it will be accountable by law !! Yes foals will be dumped, yes people will still breed but those caught will and can be prosecuted !!
 
It isnt a new thing really I remember about 40 years ago a similar situation where ponies went through the sales of a few pennies and if there were a lot they went buy one get one free. The problem is horses and particularly ponies are too cheap too cheap to buy too cheap to own and in our disposable society too cheap to be of enough value so get dumped. It used to be a privileged few that could afford horses and lessons at riding schools were affordable at a push to most people. The only poor people with horses were kids that lived on farms or needed them for transport. Now anyone can and does get a horse on a whim without the apprenticeship of helping out at a riding school and without the back p of a livery as full livery is still out of reach of most people so a bit of grass a big back yard or the verge are all considered suitable places for a foal after all they cost less than a meduim size bar of chocolate at the minute. There needs to be a minimum price for an animal of well over 100 pounds preferably 1000 to deter the whim buyers
Now it is cheaper to own a horse than have a couple of lessons a week
 
One way to maybe reduce over breeding would be to re-introduce stallion licensing. That way hopefully the number of awful colts being kept entire would be reduced. The cost would be reflected in the covering fee, thus hopefully reducing the number of mares per year.
 
On the face of it yes licencing I'd a good idea. In reality I can't see it working. Firstly young have to ensure ALL horses are chipped, otherwise how would you locate owner? Then you'd have to ensure said owners details are kept up to date!!!!! Mmmmm not going to happen. Look how well the passports issue is policed! Also who would police this???
 
isnt it up to 12 months you have to passport/chip a foal? maybe they should bring that down to 6 months as most are still at the breeders then. My boy is AES passported. Full passport paid for by the breeder (ultimately me in purchase price) and then I had him chipped when I got him home after weaning. This was before the law came in about chipping with a first passport.

other than that i agree about somehow regulating breeding but not quite sure how this could be enforced. police wont be bothered about it in the slightest.
 
Pale Rider said:
I agree entirely with you.

The only way to deal with all these unwanted horses is the meat man, so long as there is no live exports I'd be for that.

What you don't want is lots of horses becoming welfare cases which is too cruel.
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Absolutley
And maybe a licence for breeding/owning that costs enough discourage numptys,and put breeders of low value foals off. That or make horses subject to the same livestock regulations as cattle, pigs etc. That would mean a passport system that actually works (a bit) and perhaps make dealers/ breeders a bit more answerable for their actions.
Maybe also take away the stigma of the (british)meatman for unwanted horses, I wouldn't send my old pet horse there but have no problem with it for homeless horses, it's infinatley better than dumping on charities or selling on for pennies to some scamming dealer who will only send it round the sales on route to the meatman anyway...
 
You won't get a telling off from me either!

I think all stallions should be licensed. If they aren't the best of the best, they are gelded. Every Horse to be passported and colts are inspected by the vets. If they have a confirmation or medical problem. Geld when its old enough. No ifs or but's.

Until then we need more places like Potters to get rid of the unwanted ones. I don't like the thought of healthy Horses being put down either. But there are worse things that could happen to them.

When I thought my mare would have to retire at 5YO. The ammount of people suggesting I breed from her was crazy!
 
Lol laurenbay, been told the same thing. Pony is a fine 11.1, of unknown breeding, dam was a mini, sire anyone's guess. Although she's got a nice temperament, she's far too lively to ever be considered as a lr or fr pony, & even forgetting the size issue by the time she's outgrown will still only be 8 at the most, probably 7, so its not like she'll even have a long history of being a good second pony. But still I have been told I should breed from her when outgrown. Because of course the nation is crying out for tiny sharp ponies of unspecified breeding. And I don't mean its been suggested by kids or people new to horses, its been people who should really know better.
 
Kat said:
@rainbowdash full livery isn't a welfare issue. It is the cheap DIY yards with no supervision, the rented fields and the horses kept in gardens that are a worry. At least at full livery a horse's basic needs are met however novice the owner. If all novices kept their horses at full or part livery then horses would be far better off.
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I've just moved from a DIY yard where the YO was running 2 stallions on the hill behind the yard. Everything he breeds is a scrub. This year he will have 6 unbroken 4yo cobs, a useless 8yo with kissing spines, a 2yo cob and about 10 foals from last year. Plus the 5 "sporthorses" he bred which he can't sell because they are rubbish.

He is not alone round here anyone with a bit of land buys a stallion and calls themselves a stud.
 
YorksG said:
One way to maybe reduce over breeding would be to re-introduce stallion licensing. That way hopefully the number of awful colts being kept entire would be reduced. The cost would be reflected in the covering fee, thus hopefully reducing the number of mares per year.
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I agree with this. Also, I'm not sure how it would work and probably very idealist but I think people should have to get a license to breed so that there are not so many crap horses being bred and going for pennies!

eta- too late! Lastchance got there first
 
Here's the problem because the people breeding 50 pound ponies are not going to comply with the rules. So while people who do breed with a purpose get screwed, the crap will still be out there.

Because let's face it, it's more than breeders. It's people who use up and discard horses that might actually be well bred. It's people who don't have a clue and create a horse that nobody wants. You want everyone to stop breeding so we can all buy what others have tossed on the heap? They have ruined?

Trust me I hate people who breed to breed. But it's not just breeders. Some people would like a horse that you know where it came from. What the bloodlines may offer. Any controls put in place proper breeders would comply with. I know that when I used to breed a couple I would have been more than happy to have my horses and facility inspected and pay a fee. But that won't stop joe blow who can just say a stallion got loose with his mares. Joe blow is the problem, not reputable breeders. And so how do you stop him?

It's like me saying that anyone who buys a horse must keep them for life. That when you've used them up you must pay for retirement livery before you can purchase another one. It's all fine and dandy for people to sell horses and make good money or to get a new one as the old one really didn't work out for whatever reason, chief among them aspirations beyond stations, and then blame the breeder. Lots of people fail horses beyond breeders so you need a solution beyond breeders.

Terri
 
horseandshoes77 said:
But it actually gives police or other authorities the power....at min they have none surely that's got to be a step in right direction ?
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Or it will more than likely become a hefty, misleading piece of legislation that allows charities such as RSPCA to spend unjustified amounts of money for small wins, either way will result in little police involvement and mostly one slightly dubious breeder calling time on another.

I don't have mares, I get on better with geldings, and it always makes me cringe when someone says "at least if you get a mare and it goes wrong you can breed from it." Why? Because it is physically capable of reproducing some form of foal, no matter the conformation or ill traits of genetics that go with it, or because it actually has the credentials of something you would like to breed from? Madness.
 
Licenses for breeding is a funny one. Here in America reputable and registered stallions are licensed and mares go through approvals and performance testing (a similar but less stringent process to stallion licensing). In WB circles they are all licensed/approved by the breed society. The cost to license the stallions varies depending on the WB registry but often the costs of 70 day testing is around $9,000 (approx £5,000). That's just for the testing. Vet tests are over and above, and thereafter each year there are costs to keep the stallion on the registries roster. The costs to have mares approved are less and each foal born costs the breeder a reasonable sum of money to register, passport and brand or microchip the foal. By the time the foal is of weaning age most WB breeders will have spent around $3,000 - $4,000 to get it to this stage. With the AQHA and APHA registries the stallions don't do a testing, they are parentage verified and DNAd but it still costs to keep them licensed, and again the breeder has to pay the dues to register each foal. This is what reputable and responsible breeders do. Another tax on them, yes we'll/they'll pay it but what is the point? We/they already pay loads to get their youngstock on the ground. The same CANNOT be said of backyard breeders. They won't pay the stallion license fees, many of them often don't pay to have their youngstock passported. There is not the manpower to go around every individual who ever happens to breed their backyard stallion. Many offspring do not belong to any registry and they are crossbreeds so parentage is often not given or acknowledged, so then what? No sorry but licensing of mares and stallions is the norm for reputable pedigree breeders, we already pay for it! The backyard breeder does not ... and I'm afraid to state the obvious, but he probably never will.
 
Horseandshoes77 - well said. Totally agree with you. Goes for dogs too. Soething drastic needs to be done - but what. Licensing seems the answer - and a swingeing licence too; but who would enforce it? It's one big can of worms...
 
In reality the only thing that will solve the problem of overbreeding is economics and market forces. So that means an awful lot more unwanted horses and sad stories until finally it will be too expensive to breed and keep useless horses.
 
Maybe a governing body put together with all the equine charities and breeding boards, paid for out of the money from licencing, who keep one database, do 'approvals' on stallions and mares etc, rather than expensive gradings. As let's face it, not everyone can cope with or wants the next Olympic hopeful! The approval assesses, confirmation, temperament etc, those not approved must be gelded. And all this is policed, organised etc by that one governing body? But a must would be for compulsory chipping, marking of all horses. Otherwise how would you even start to police it on the ground.
 
Pigeon said:
Agreed! And everyone I've spoken to who's bred a foal thinks that they're the exception.
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I bred a foal nearly 20 years ago due to the mare having hormone problems and the vet recommending to do so. I still have that mare and would not part with her but I would not breed again as there are just to many unwanted horses.
 
I don't think it really matters what happens, there will still be too many horses being bred, whilst there are people around who will rescue them. We not only have the problem of people breeding too many in this country, but also going abroad to 'rescue' horses that will otherwise be sold for meat. There are also a lot of horses who seem to be being bredd for this purpose in the UK as well, which makes the situation worse.
Education is the only way forward. they started a programme in Ireland, when they had lots of ponies living on estates, and it did seem to help, maybe we need something like that here?
There also needs to be a crack down on fly grazing, and I hate to say it but we are looking at having to cull horses, or at least have some mass gelding going on.
 
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