i need advice please? Got myself into a sticky situation!

jadelovescassie said:
Yeah I told my friend, that's when she admitted she hadn't disinfected. All I'm going by is what the vet told me, that it was an infection and not a reaction.
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What actually happens is that the horse has a reaction - probably started as little lumps - which is itchy, horse scratches the lumps and breaks the skin and picks up an infection in the days following. Your vet was treating the infection, not the reaction.
 
Having had a quick scan through the posts I would look at doing all of the following.

1) Get your vets to confirm in writing that it was an infection not a reaction and what they did to confirm this, tests etc...
2) Check if your friend has insurance or not - don't just guess.
3) Take the findings to the owner and ask them to send the results through to the Insurance company for review. The excess should be down to you to pay but the insurance should not have a problem with paying up, they may though request details about who clipped the horse and this is where things may become an issue. As a paying customer the insurance company may want to try and recoup their financial lost (both vet fees and their legal costs) against the person who clipped whether they have insurance or not... which could end in a very costly experience for your 'friend'.

Personally, if it was me I would go firstly through my insurance company without including the details of the clip - if questioned then I would of course have to give the full details and if this then was to involve 'my friend' in legal proceedings I would pay out myself and take the loss as a lesson well learnt.
 
I do agree that I should take a visit to the owner and sort it out. On my loan contract we have done up years and years ago, it says that she is responsible for paying the insurance for the horse, but I suppose I really wouldn't mind taking over if it means I am in control of it.

If worse came to worse, and like mentioned above she did have a bad case of colic or whatever, my grand-parents (who I live with) would probably pay it, as that's life threatening. But I'm not saying by any means I would expect them to as yes that's selfish as she is my responsibility not theirs! But my mare would never be left unattended by a vet no matter how much it would cost if she needed it, that's what I'm saying.

Agree my best bet is sitting down with the owner, thanks.
 
The vet should confirm whether he believes the clippers could have caused the reaction.
Did your horse come up in lumps pre wounds?
Unless your horse was clipped after a horse who had an infection it is more likely to be a reaction (and subsequent infection) to the clipper oil/friction.
If your friend is clipping for money she should be insured and registered with the taxman. It is unlikely this is the case. However if you pursue her for this money you will lose a firend. if you are happy to lose a friend I reckon she should be stumping up a reasonable amount (50%?) to the cost as she has no defense having NOT sterilised the clippers. Although this could have happened anyway there would have been no question about it if she had done them.
 
Does the owner definitely have insurance - have you seen the policy? I thought it was one of the basic payments that a loaner takes on when they get the horse/pony? I could be wrong though of course!
 
I clipped horses professionally for 20 yrs and I did not disinfect them after every horse. They would be taken apart and cleaned after each time but it is not necessary to disinfect unless you suspect a horse has an infection like ringworm that could be transmitted.

It sounds very much like others have said, a reaction to the oil which maybe then got infected.
 
I think in the mean time, you need to negotiate with the vet to pay in installments. This will allow to to investigate following the insurance route with the owner. I do not think it is worth involving your friend who clipped, as that may have been purely coincidental.
 
Well when we first took on Cassie almost 4 years ago, she was definitely insured then as yes we did see the policy. As it has been written and agreed on the loan agreement that the owner pay the horses insurance (this is the one and only thing she does pay for) and I pay for my own personal insurance for myself. As this was written and signed it is not something me or my family worried about! Now though that we are faced with a larger vets bill, and the insurance company 'will not pay', it is maybe possible that she isn't insured. That though, without sounding sorry for myself, is not my fault. As we have an agreement written up it is expected the owner pay the insurance for the horse. If she had said she didn't want to pay it or couldn't afford to we would have been more than happy to insure the pony ourselves.
 
jadelovescassie said:
If worse came to worse, and like mentioned above she did have a bad case of colic or whatever, my grand-parents (who I live with) would probably pay it, as that's life threatening. But I'm not saying by any means I would expect them to as yes that's selfish as she is my responsibility not theirs! But my mare would never be left unattended by a vet no matter how much it would cost if she needed it, that's what I'm saying.
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Perhaps then you could ask your grandparents to loan you the money for this vets bill, and you can pay it back to them in instalments.

Unless you have a definite diagnosis of the infection that your horse had (so a definite diagnosis of ringworm, for example) and you could prove that one of the other horses clipped by your friend had the same condition, then I don't think you can say for sure that your horse's problem was caused by contaminated clipper blades, so have no comeback against your friend.
 
I think you are faced with two issues:

- one is sorting out the insurance arrangements with the owner. It sounds like you have been very reasonable about arranging for insurance for the horse, if the owner did not do this despite your arrangement then she should pay for the bill. You may fall out with the owner over this, but as others have mentioned being covered by insurance could be crucial for a much larger bill and you need to be clear where you stand with the owner.

- if the friend who clipped got paid, then she was providing a service for which she should be insured. In theory she could be held responsible for causing the problem. If she agrees to pay for the vet's bill that would be brilliant, but if not you have a number of hurddles to overcome. Firstly you need a letter from at least one vet (two different vets would be best) testifying that the problem was caused by the clipping and could have been prevented by disinfecting the blades. Then you need to take her to court and may need to employ a solicitor to represent you. All this will cost you money, although if you win you could be awarded damages and costs. Meanwhile you will still need to pay the vets and wait to see whether the courts will re-imburse you. Slightly worse, still, you may win the case but find that your friend has no funds to pay you back in which case you are still stuck with the vet's bill and the solicitor's bill.
 
Just asking the question, because I don't know the answer - but it is unreasonable to ask for a photocopy of the insurance documentation from the owner of the horse that you have on loan? Surely, that was, the loaner then has peace of mind that the horse is insured.
 
To the clipper who says it was unnceccsary-actually I think you will find for this very reason that it is necessary.
After clipping one horse they should be briefly disinfected and certainly before going to a different yard they should be thoroughly disinfected and ideally you would be attending in clean clothes. In clipping you are covering the clippers and yourself in dust/hair/any infection or bacteria on that horse.
At one yard you could argue the horse is already exposed to that bacteria and environement. But at a different one, totally different.
We in the horse world are sometimes slack about disease but if it is you who is the one person to transmit that disease, you would be not popular.
As a professional you would be liable if you caused a disease to spread. I would expect all professionals to take the same precautions. I would hope you were also insured.
 
i clip for a living and am fully insured to do this. however i think you would find it very difficult to prove that the person who clipped was negligent. most clipper oils have antibacterial properties in the spray, and as the infection didnt appear for several days your horse could have picked it up from anything .. a dirty rug, dirty brushes etc. i always suggest that people wash their horses off after clipping to remove any little hairs from the skin, and to remove any traces of clipper oil from the skin. my insurance is in place incase i accidently injure the horse whilst clipping, though again i would have to be proven negligent for a claim to continue. if the horse is being naughty/badly behaved then i would suggest it is either restrained with a twitch or chifney or sedated by a vet to do the job safely.
 
Im sorry but I have to argue that the infection was very unlikely to be picked up from a rug or anything else, me and the vet both went through this together in some detail and ruled everything out. He confirmed it was caused from the clipping.
 
To be honest you asked someone as a favour and they kindly did it for you so whilst this has happened it may just be one of those things and large unexpected vets bills are all part and parcel of horse ownership (I've just got a £1500 the insurance are quibbling so i know how you feel).

Unless you can provide evidence from the vets saying undoubtedly that the clipper blades were the cause of the infection or can prove the previous horse clipped had the infection (all easier said than done) then it would be hard. If you are going to ask for a contribution from your friend for the bill then thats one thing but if you are going to fill in the bits of claim form which attribute blame to someone then it will require proof.. idiot proof clear evidence. The insurance company would then try and claim against your friend. You may well end up losing a friend over this when its unlikely (if they kind enough to do you the favour in the first place) they set out to infect your horse.

Like the others have said, why don't you call the vet and ask to pay it off bit by bit. My vet allows people to do that and I don't think that its uncommon.
 
TGM said:
Would he be prepared to put this in writing and say that your horse definitely had an infection which was definitely caused by the clipping person failing to disinfect their clippers?
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If I asked him, then I expect he would yes. However, after reading some of the posts here about all the legal damage and fuss, I'd rather just pay the bill myself (I don't want to lose a friend), and then talk to the owner about the horses insurance so I can take over to make sure something like this doesn't happen in the future.
 
squiz22 said:
To be honest you asked someone as a favour and they kindly did it for you so whilst this has happened it may just be one of those things and large unexpected vets bills are all part and parcel of horse ownership (I've just got a £1500 the insurance are quibbling so i know how you feel).

Unless you can provide evidence from the vets saying undoubtedly that the clipper blades were the cause of the infection or can prove the previous horse clipped had the infection (all easier said than done) then it would be hard. If you are going to ask for a contribution from your friend for the bill then thats one thing but if you are going to fill in the bits of claim form which attribute blame to someone then it will require proof.. idiot proof clear evidence. The insurance company would then try and claim against your friend. You may well end up losing a friend over this when its unlikely (if they kind enough to do you the favour in the first place) they set out to infect your horse.

Like the others have said, why don't you call the vet and ask to pay it off bit by bit. My vet allows people to do that and I don't think that its uncommon.
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I would like to mention as I was paying for my friend to do the clip, it wasn't a free favour. I don't think she set out to infect my horse at all :) I just think she should have been more careful and disinfected the clippers when going to and from different yards.

But yes like I said, I agree that all the legal things are easier said than done and it could end up costing much more than it's worth. I will probably call the vets and ask them if I can pay the bill off bit by bit then!
 
To be fair. As an owner, i wouldn't claim for a small vets bill like that. I would still be charged the excess and for the sake of another 200 quid or so, you could potentially have an exclusion slapped on any future skin problem and they'll whack up the premium going forward, so I personally would not agree to make an insurance claim in this case. I might as an owner have stumped up half the cost though.

I also clip my own and friends for favours and I have never disinfected blades between horses, just cleaned them. And I certainly wouldn't think to unless i suspected something like ringworm.

However if I was to be accused of causing a reaction or infection on a horse I had been asked to clip and had moans about vets bills cast in my direction, I would certainly NOT be offering that favour again, regardless of whether I was paid for it or not.

Clipping takes ages, is a manky job and equipment is expensive, you need to consider blades & oil as overheads. Just because you have paid, doesn't mean it's not a favour. (you wouldn't ask a favour of transport and not offer someone fuel money would you)
 
I wonder if the owners have let the insurance policy lapse. If this turns out to be the case,I would consider asking them to share the cost of the vets bill. If there is some other reason why the insurance company won't pay (I can't think of one), then I agree that your best course of action, is to either ask your grandparents for a loan or to ask the vet if you can pay in instalments.
I have to say that if I were loan out a horse, I would want to pay the insurance myself, in order to ensure that the horse was covered. I would also want to know that an adult was taking responsibility for the expenses incurred in looking after a horse, whatever the actual day-to-day arrangements were within the family.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I wonder if the owners have let the insurance policy lapse. If this turns out to be the case,I would consider asking them to share the cost of the vets bill. If there is some other reason why the insurance company won't pay (I can't think of one), then I agree that your best course of action, is to either ask your grandparents for a loan or to ask the vet if you can pay in instalments.
I have to say that if I were loan out a horse, I would want to pay the insurance myself, in order to ensure that the horse was covered. I would also want to know that an adult was taking responsibility for the expenses incurred in looking after a horse, whatever the actual day-to-day arrangements were within the family.
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I will probably end up paying in instalments which is realistic, I didn't realise I could do this up until some of the replies on here.
My nan did take responsibility for the expenses up until around when I turned 18. As I've had Cassie 4 years I know her owner trusts me with her life and for good reason too, as even with a hefty vets bill that might occur in the future, I would still pay a million pounds in instalments if it meant my mare was in good health!
 
Maybe its too late but I would have used Vetericyn on the skin condition, before Vets, steroids, etc. I've used it on dogs and horses for all sorts and it was great. WRT the bill, charge your mate half, that way you both loose equally:):)
 
Honey08 said:
Agree with this. Do you pay the owner for insuring the horse? It sounds a funny arangement, which leaves you in a mess.... Its hard to chase an insurance company up and query things if its not in your name..

As for someone that clips horses for money, they should have insurance, but it depends if it is just someone making a bit of extra money, or a professional.. Even if you were to claim, you would have to prove that it happened because of the blades not being disinfected, and it doesn't sound as though you do have proof. You just think that it must be because of the disinfecting.. As everyone says, it would be very very unusual for the infection to come like that unless she had clipped an infected horse before. Clipper oil allergy is most likely.

I do feel sorry for you, and think that you need to have a chat with the owner about the insurance situation. If you have no control over it, then I would seriously think about ending the loan and finding something else to loan that you can insure yourself... Tell the owner that you are thinking that way. She probably won't want to lose you. There are many people on here struggling to loan horses, so it wouldn't be easy to find someone else..
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Nooo no I don't pay the owner to insure the horse. As agreed on the loan agreement she pays to insure the horse, it's the only thing she does pay though. I would be more than happy to take over paying this!

I see what you're saying about the owner/insurance situation. I know it sounds terrible but even if she didn't want me to/wouldn't let me take over the insurance situation then there would be no way on this earth I would be sending the pony back. She is my whole world wrapped up in horsey-form lol. :)
 
veryhappykids said:
Maybe its too late but I would have used Vetericyn on the skin condition, before Vets, steroids, etc. I've used it on dogs and horses for all sorts and it was great. WRT the bill, charge your mate half, that way you both loose equally:):)
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I agree with you!! :)
The vet gave me some vets shampoo stuff and some cream to apply to her raw sores too.. it might have actually been that Vetericyn!
 
Just to make it clear, almost all lubricating oils for clippers are antibacterial and contain disinfectant properties, so yes her blades would most likely have been disinfected whether your friend knew it or not. Just because she didn't dunk her blades in Dettol doesn't mean they weren't disinfected.

The symptoms you are describing sound like an allergic reaction to the oil and this in turn could have turned into an infection due to your horse itching the sensitive area which had the allergic reaction to the clipper oil.
 
Baileyhoss said:
To be fair. As an owner, i wouldn't claim for a small vets bill like that. I would still be charged the excess and for the sake of another 200 quid or so, you could potentially have an exclusion slapped on any future skin problem and they'll whack up the premium going forward, so I personally would not agree to make an insurance claim in this case. I might as an owner have stumped up half the cost though.
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Baileyhoss, you may as well claim as they will exclude future skin conditions anyway, whther you have taken any money off them or not. Its what shows on your vets report, not what you claim for.
 
Clodagh said:
Baileyhoss, you may as well claim as they will exclude future skin conditions anyway, whther you have taken any money off them or not. Its what shows on your vets report, not what you claim for.
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True. Although an exclusion for this would only normally last for one policy year. Insurance companies seem to forget to tell customers if an exclusion can be removed. Always check what it says on your renewal documents. It may say with effect from dd/mm/yy to dd/mm/yy. If your vet could confirm your horse had been free from infections for 1 year (an example) they may remove that exclusion. Normally, exclusions are only permanent for chronic conditions such as arthritis or loads of occurences, so if your horse had an infection every year for a number of years.
 
jadelovescassie said:
Well when we first took on Cassie almost 4 years ago, she was definitely insured then as yes we did see the policy. As it has been written and agreed on the loan agreement that the owner pay the horses insurance (this is the one and only thing she does pay for) and I pay for my own personal insurance for myself. As this was written and signed it is not something me or my family worried about! Now though that we are faced with a larger vets bill, and the insurance company 'will not pay', it is maybe possible that she isn't insured. That though, without sounding sorry for myself, is not my fault. As we have an agreement written up it is expected the owner pay the insurance for the horse. If she had said she didn't want to pay it or couldn't afford to we would have been more than happy to insure the pony ourselves.
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The only reason I can think why they won't pay because of when it happened would be if the policy lapsed, they don't have insurance at all or because they didn't take out insurance until after the incident. Even if the policy lapsed and they back-payed on premiums I don't think it would be covered as it would fall in a time of "uninsurance"

As it is in the loan agreement that they will have insurance I think they should have to foot the full bill! You shouldn't have to be in this mess if the horse is uninsured and they promised it would be.
 
I haven't read the replies but would add that I clipped my pony last year, and he developed the worst rash you could imagine, lumps ALL over his body, including the blanket that was not clipped. It was apparently a reaction to the extreme cold that came the day after he was clipped. He is always clipped, clean clippers, my own, with no probls. He was very itchy and had steroids. These things happen sadly and could have happened if you clipped with your own brand new clippers.

Apparently more likely to happen if you clip a very hairy horse. (ie full winter coat rather than in Oct for example)
 
Elbie said:
The only reason I can think why they won't pay because of when it happened would be if the policy lapsed, they don't have insurance at all or because they didn't take out insurance until after the incident. Even if the policy lapsed and they back-payed on premiums I don't think it would be covered as it would fall in a time of "uninsurance"

As it is in the loan agreement that they will have insurance I think they should have to foot the full bill! You shouldn't have to be in this mess if the horse is uninsured and they promised it would be.
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Thank you, I do now think I have been led to believe she is insured when she may not be. I probably wouldn't be in this mess if she was, like you said. I'm a bit worried about approaching her owner about it though as I get on well with her (though I've only met her face to face two/three times) and wouldn't want to upset her and risk having the pony taken off of me.
 
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