I need to get this off my chest

Hear hear to Dressagecrazy. Exactly. We all do what is best for our horses, be it barefoot or shod. I don't understand why those that use farriers have to give trimmers a hard time. There are bad farriers as well as bad trimmers. Some farriers should be struck off for the appalling work they do. No-one seems to say anything about that.
 
Herbie is unshod and has good solid feet. (so my lovely farrier says :D )
Merryn is currently unshod he has never had shoes on before (he's 8) but I think i may have to put fronts on him as In the 3 months i've had him he's had 3 foot abcesses !!!!!!!!! We are going to put fronts on to see if that stops it.

I think you have to do whats best for your horse. Whatever you do you will always be told you are doing it wrong and there is a better way to do it. I had it all with the horrid ones napping. Everyone told me I shouldn't be getting off when he naps. But it worked and now I can hack him out without any problems :D Anyway slightly off track there :p but what i'm trying to say is you just have to do whats best for your horse and if your horse is happy and healthy then who cares what anyone else says. :D Maybe i'm just thick skinned ;) :p :D :D
 
There isn't a problem perse with either barefoot or shod - you should educate yourself and choose whichever you feel suits you, your horse, your activities and the way you keep your horse. Whether you use a trimmer or a farrier just make sure they are competent and qualified.

The problem comes when you are told that you are obviously shoeing your horse because you are uneducated as to the best way to treat your horse.

That ALL horses can happily go barefoot and do ALL activities

That if your horse is struggling with going barefoot or indeed any has any foot issues then its down to the way you keep or feed him.

That farriers know nothing about how to keep a horses foot healthy.
 
I wouldn't let anyone but a farrier near my horse's feet, sorry. My farrier is fantastic, he does a wonderful job with a truly cr*p set of hooves (my boy is half TB, but his feet appear to be full TB lol). Like the OP's, my horse is a total princess about his feet, and if he loses a shoe he walks like he's missing a leg.
 
I totally agree that barefoot evangelists can give the unsuspecting forumite the false impression that all horses are healthier, happier and sounder when barefoot. I am also mystified by the often-repeated maxim that barefoot is not the same as unshod - ermmmm...?

I had a cob on loan a few years ago who had amazing feet and had been happily barefoot for some time before she came to live with me. However, the ground where I hack is very very stony and uneven, and she got very footsore very quickly. Farrier agreed that she needed shoes, so shoes she had. We tried hoof boots but they were a right kerfuffle and were a nightmare in deep mud.

Anyway, my point is that the decision as to whether or not your horse needs shoes depends on so many factors, including the job the horse is to do and the terrain it is to do it on. Some barefoot evangelists need to remember this before they present shoe removal as a miracle cure.
 
I haven't read all the posts, but at last some sense!

What works well for some, will not work for others. I tried 2 months of barefoot on my retired TB - My farrier is experienced with the barefoot trim, and he suggested that if I was sure I wanted to do it, to just start with the hind shoes off. He went from being sound, and happy and healthy, to being chronically lame, and he became very forlorn. I had him on up to 3 butes a day at times, as I wanted to give it a chance. After he started losing weight, and suffered a mild colic (which he does through anxiety) I put the hind shoes back on after nearly 2 months of barefoot. Within 7 days of having his shoes back in he was sound again, he stopped constantly weight shifting, and his happy, cheeky character and his appetite came back again!

The heavy cob in the next stable to my TB with feet as tough as nails thrives barefoot. There is an Iberian horse on our yard, again with naturally super hard, tough feet, and she does well barefoot.

It does not take a genius to look at the feet of the cob and the Iberian horse to know that they will go through life fine barefoot, and my TB would not be able to cope well at all. I'm a little angry that I allowed the bullying tactics of the barefoot brigade to persuade me to take the shoes off, when I knew it wouldn't work. What annoys me most is that they saw how lame my horse became and I never had an apology or admittance that perhaps it isn’t the best thing for some horses. In fact all they said was that I should have persevered longer!

Tunnel vision and ignorance is all I can say about them.
 
I think its because the general 'default' is always to shoe a horse. Everyone seems to do it automatically. I do both - I keep mine barefoot for as long as possible then shoe if or when I need to. I have 2 veteran retired ponies who are both barefoot trimmed, even though for years I had a farrier who always told me he HAD to be shod - his hooves (and him) have never looked better...! Whereas I have to shoe my competition horse, purely so I can use studs for jumping on grass, but during the winter (indoor season) I have his shoes taken off which he absolutely loves. I hate shoes, they're horrid things which put so much shock up the horses legs it cant be good for them but I also realise they have their place. I do think people should always think first though before wacking shoes on.
 
tallyhohoho said:
Why do you even care?

If your horses are fine then great! Your farrier is a good one, fab!!! I don't see farriers or 'shod people' running to offer solutions when something goes wrong though.

''''''Don't you? I have seen a few farriers on here offering help to people who are having problems, one called 'the farrier' is always helpful. I can also call my own farrier if i have any issues.''''''''''

Never seen evangelists preaching on here, just people with in similar situations sharing experiences which is how forums work.

'''''''''''I have, and i have also come across them in real life.'''''''

You go and let the side down by having a pop at people who just want the best for the horse if what they had previously wasn't working for them. Not everything can go without shoes, not every horse can go with shoes problem free and vice versa. Each to thier own.

And so if bitching about it makes you feel better then that's all that matters.
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I'm not bitching I was just making a point that many barefoot fans seem to insinuate that people with shod horses aren't doing the best for their horses by putting bits of metal on their feet and not feeding them properly or doing everything the organic way.
And as you say, this is a forum with people
sharing experiences which is how forums work. That's what is happening here surely.



Poodle - I know some farriers aren't the best, there are good and bad in every profession. The point is that farriers CAN be struck off, barefoot trimmers can't because there is no regulatory body, they can continue on their merry way regardless of how bad they are.
I also stated that I had one who is unshod so I am not against people not putting shoes on their horses, why would i be.
I just get fed up of people preaching to me about this natural barefoot way.

I don't actually care if people have shoes, don't have shoes but I just object to them insinuating that I am clueless or that I am neglecting or not doing the best for my horse because I put shoes on her and don't feed all the organic over priced supplements.

And no I haven't tried a barefoot trimmer because I have a great farrier and I wouldn't let someone who has maybe been on a course or 2 take any sharp instrument to her feet. I am still entitled to my opinion.
 
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Do agree with you. My last old mare was shod but gradually after consultation with our brilliant farrier we took her hind shoes off and she coped brilliantly and this was at 19yrs. Our part of the Downs are a bit unforgiving with flints etc but she coped very well, She kept her fronts was done every 6/7weeks until the day she was pts. Would only have my farrier do feet.
 
There's patronising people on all sides. Not all barefooters are patronising. But a lot of those who stick with shoes and refuse to look at any other way are patronising.

My share horse is not barefoot, but i wish he was because shoes are ruining his feet. I'm not a barefooter, but experience has shown me that many who have never had shoes have brill feet.

I also from my own logical point of view think that unyeilding metal nailed to a hoof which naturally expands and contracts according to the environment is not the best measure for healthy feet.

See, i am patronising, and i have a shod horse :p
 
I have 1 horse shod and 3 trimmed, the 2 youngsters and my TB mare who like most of her breed is flatfooted,but she has been out of work for several years, because of her sweet-itch. Did read a post on here couple of weeks ago about putting boots on, did ask got no replies. SO why do barefoot horses need boots to be ridden in???????:confused::confused::confused: and next year if I can get her sweet-ich sorted out, so I can ride her now and then I shall have front shoes put on her.
 
QR
I think everyone is entitled to their own opinions and people can get very evangelical about "their" hobby horse. But no matter what I think people should respect each other's choices for their horse. There is no one idea is right for all. IMHO its about the right choice for that particular horse.

FDC
 
somethingorother said:
There's patronising people on all sides. Not all barefooters are patronising. But a lot of those who stick with shoes and refuse to look at any other way are patronising.

My share horse is not barefoot, but i wish he was because shoes are ruining his feet. I'm not a barefooter, but experience has shown me that many who have never had shoes have brill feet.

I also from my own logical point of view think that unyeilding metal nailed to a hoof which naturally expands and contracts according to the environment is not the best measure for healthy feet.

See, i am patronising, and i have a shod horse :p
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Good thread, with 2 unshod (like that term, better than barefoot, thanks!) horses trimmed by a lovely farrier with no fancy supplements other than a bit of garlic and sheeps magnesium oxide off ebay, isnt it about being open to all ways? I always thought needed shoes for road work, I've proven thats wrong, and for jumping (studs) Ive proven THAT wrong too. I agree that most horses probably could go unshod but I dont really care TBH. I like to share my experience of unshod as I am pleased with it and it makes sense to me, but I take what I want and leave the rest........best way.
 
festnuttyfairy said:
I don't actually care if people have shoes, don't have shoes but I just object to them insinuating that I am clueless or that I am neglecting or not doing the best for my horse because I put shoes on her and don't feed all the organic over priced supplements.
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I think these evangelist tree hugging barefooters will be the first to say ditch the expensive supplements!!!

The most evnagelical of all 'barefooters' ARE farriers!!!

Katie_A said:
I am also mystified by the often-repeated maxim that barefoot is not the same as unshod - ermmmm...?

"""""""""Oh really? Someone needs to learn english. UNshod assumes that horses were naturally shod. Therefore being UNshod suggests that it was born shod and was then unshod as a way of life rather than being barefoot as any animal would be when it was born... """""""""

Anyway, my point is that the decision as to whether or not your horse needs shoes depends on so many factors, including the job the horse is to do and the terrain it is to do it on. Some barefoot evangelists need to remember this before they present shoe removal as a miracle cure.
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I think you are the evangelist here. No 'barefooter' ever suggested it was better - it came about in contemporary hoofcare due to so many problems with being shod!!! Get your facts right.

You ARe right though... if it helps then great, if not - isn't it fabulous we now live in a world where there is CHOICE.
 
tallyhohoho said:
"""""""""Oh really? Someone needs to learn english. UNshod assumes that horses were naturally shod. Therefore being UNshod suggests that it was born shod and was then unshod as a way of life rather than being barefoot as any animal would be when it was born... """""""""
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I am so sorry to revive this thread, but have only just seen tallyhohoho's reply and just can't resist giving her(?) a small English lesson...

For a puzzle to be "UNcomplicated" it does not first have to have been "complicated", for a course of action to be "UNdesirable" it need not have first been "desirable", for a forum member to be "UNnecessarily" narky she does not first have to be "necessarily" narky... I could go on. In fact, here's an even better example: when I am not wearing my slippers I am "unshod", but I most certainly was not born wearing them :)

*Katie_A steps down from the pulpit* ;)
 
I have 4.

One has fronts only (was never shod until she got canker but one of her hooves has grown oddly due to this, and is is the process of remedial shoeing until it's back to normal again).

One isn't shod at all (TB). She may have to be in order to do the amount of roadwork I'd like to, but we'll see, as she's v lami prone and I like the 'early warning' not wearing shoes provides.

Two are shod all round. One of those can be fronts only if not too much roadwork. Both have the same sire, who throws foals with crumbly, soft hooves. One of those came to me with paper thin soles (unbacked so not from work), and after pads all round for a little and a good supplement, she's on normal shoes now.
 
Katie_A said:
I am so sorry to revive this thread, but have only just seen tallyhohoho's reply and just can't resist giving her(?) a small English lesson...

For a puzzle to be "UNcomplicated" it does not first have to have been "complicated", for a course of action to be "UNdesirable" it need not have first been "desirable", for a forum member to be "UNnecessarily" narky she does not first have to be "necessarily" narky... I could go on. In fact, here's an even better example: when I am not wearing my slippers I am "unshod", but I most certainly was not born wearing them :)

*Katie_A steps down from the pulpit* ;)
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:D:D Anyhoo surely be correct it would also be barehoof/
 
For every owner and horse, there is a 'best' way of doing everything! Shod or not is just one of the many decisions each needs to take to convince themselves they are doing the best for their horse.

Re the barefoot or unshod prob - I tend to refer to a horse out of work and without shoes as unshod, I would term a horse working without shoes to be barefoot. There is a difference in how one would choose to manage each one and so a difference in term to describe them I think is helpful.

Fwiw my mare is barefoot (for about 3/4 months now) and oh mare shortly will be. When I was trying to educate myself more about how horses hooves work, what shoeing does to this system etc I found it hard to get info. I found alot of info from a funny bunch of people who had 'barefoot' horses. Initially I ignored this info as everyone came across as super cheerful, this way is amazing, and a bit batty tbh and I found that what was recommended for a healthy horse to be much more 'basic' than all the info I had read up on (and been swayed by feed companies!). So I was v sceptical of any of the information and ignored the possibility of taking her barefoot as I couldn't believe that the info I was reading was unbiased and true. After loads of umming and ahing I went for it and had her shoes off when she was out of work. With the plan to slowly bring her back into work and shoe when needed, but to also keep an eye on what was different (if anything) when she was working without shoes. Boy was I suprised when she improved her stride, forwardness, no medial lateral balance issues (which had plagued us for months before!) etc.

So now I am one of those 'slightly wacky and way too keen on barefoot' people! I am under no illusions that it is the magic bullet for every problem and management system under the sun. But, I would like is for people to consider a working horse not being shod to be as possible as a shod working horse and to understand the validity of each approach - while being aware of the changes in management that some horses might need in order to be sound over all ground without shoes, and also knowing that shoes do damage the feet in many ways - a break from being shod is important for any horse wether that be for a couple of weeks off work or as a potential new way of working the horse.

An open mind is all I am trying to suggest when I do reply to shod type posts as I recognise myself in many of posts - the being troubled by the damage shoes seemed to be doing to my horses way of going but also hesitant at the possibility of barefoot.
 
Katie_A said:
I am so sorry to revive this thread, but have only just seen tallyhohoho's reply and just can't resist giving her(?) a small English lesson...

For a puzzle to be "UNcomplicated" it does not first have to have been "complicated", for a course of action to be "UNdesirable" it need not have first been "desirable", for a forum member to be "UNnecessarily" narky she does not first have to be "necessarily" narky... I could go on. In fact, here's an even better example: when I am not wearing my slippers I am "unshod", but I most certainly was not born wearing them :)

*Katie_A steps down from the pulpit* ;)
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Well I'm still not sure, you haven't made sense. At the same time... you have to dress before you UNdress... mount before you UNmount.... do something before you UNdo it.... and so, in the context we're referring to here, I am well within reason to assume that this is something you do, before it is UNdone.

Whereas barefoot actually describes a hoof that has never been shod, or subsequently deshod after being shod, and is now living a life without shoes for whatever reason.

Sounds less silly than unshod. 'The Unshod Horse' while it may be valid in some perspectives, is outdated.
 
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OP - I could hug you for being brave enough to start this thread. I too will not allow anyone near my horse who has notdone his time as an apprentice and then qualified as a Farrier. Even here in NZ - my farrier is from Wales and also did some of his apprenticeship with my old farrier in UK - so I know I have a gem. He's looked after my fur family now for 7 years and they are all unshod. What I also find incredible is the amount they charge for trimming. My farrier charges $30 (£14) the barefooters aroound $90 (£40).

Below is the letter that the 'NZ Farriers Association' response to barefoot trimmers.

What are the issues surrounding the barefoot vs. shoes argument?

By Deane Gebert cfp

Barefoot trimmers have been changing (not always for the better) the landscape of the hoof care world.

Unfortunately farriers, until now, have been deafening in their silence on this matter. It is perhaps useful to keep in mind that this situation, in general, was created by poor workmanship from unqualified and uneducated people passing themselves off as farriers. Unsatisfactory results caused some owners to look for alternatives and so the Barefoot Trimmer was born. The animosity that has surfaced between the two camps since then has been simmering away for several years. So let's take a look at the participants and the differing philosophies of what has become a very partisan spat.

Qualified farriers undergo four years of intense training with a strong emphasis on hoof assessment, both static and dynamic. Hoof preparation, including a balanced trim. Forging and fitting of shoes and the theory of equine farriery. From the beginning apprentices are utilised in the day to day work of the farrier business and are under the guidance of a master farrier. They will be exposed to remedial shoeing techniques and be expected to study horse anatomy and physiology. Eventually they will become expert in the workings and care of the equine distal limb. Apprentice farriers are required to attend practical courses every year with the national trainer and are also encouraged to compete at the various farrier competitions. These competitions are held throughout the year and give the apprentices the opportunity to sharpen up their forging and shoeing skills. It's a great chance for them to watch senior members forge and shoe as well as receive feedback from the judges on their own work. Nothing else highlights weakness or skill deficiency like competition. This helps prepare the apprentice for their final exam. The exam is made up of several parts namely written, oral and practical. The practical portion consists of hoof preparation including the trim, which is judged prior to hand forged shoes being fitted to the horse. The apprentice is also expected to present the examiner with a display of about a dozen therapeutic shoes that he/she has personally forged to the best of his/her ability. Failure can occur at any stage.

Barefoot trimmers must complete a training course of varying length depending on which protocol they adhere to. The Strasser Method pioneered by the veterinarian, Dr Hiltrud Strasser who coined the phrase 'The Strasser Trim' has her acolytes complete a two year web based course with a weeklong practical 'apprenticeship' (her words). Her method however is somewhat controversial. After reading a couple of her books it was difficult to find proof that her method is any better than the normal trim that a farrier would use. Likewise there is no proof to her claims that horseshoes cause health issues, kidney disease being one of her allegations. It is alarming to note that she does mention that her trim may cause the death of a horse. (I'm not sure I'd want that on my business card). My overriding feeling, after wading through two of her books I've read, is that she has an overwhelming contempt for farriers and that she focuses too heavily on recruiting new members. Her campaign sounds more like something that an Amway franchise sales person would be envious of. Consequently I decided to search for Barefoot Trimmers who were not using the franchise business model and who were more concerned about blackening the name of the farrier profession (Farriers are quite able to do this without anyone's help - thank you very much!) than providing a professional service.

This was not as easy as I had expected. I trawled the websites of several Barefoot Trimmers and was somewhat amazed to find similar views to shoeing as those of the virulent Dr Strasser. There was also lots of web space dedicated to recruiting new converts. Perhaps barefoot trimmers, or at least those with websites, would be better employed writing spin for politicians as some of the drivel that they pedal is truly spectacular in its fanaticism. I decided that perhaps books were the way to go. After lots more reading ...

It appears that you can become a barefoot trimmer, with as little as two days training, try googling Naked Horse. The main emphasis though seems to be on pulling at the heart strings of horse owners by using emotive words like 'natural' as often as possible, or 'your horse will love you for removing its cruel steel shoes'. The other obvious and somewhat more disturbing feature is the proclivity of some exponents of the trimming sorority to claim paternity to well established knowledge by rebranding it. For example renaming the hydraulic shock absorption formed by the hoof's vascular plexuses, 'haemodynamic flow' does not make it a newly discovered fact.

I think that farriers and barefoot trimmers have loads in common when all the rhetoric and marketing that bloats the literature and websites of the barefoot trimmer's missives are pared away. They both consider heel height to be important. The bearing surface, according to farriers, should include the hoof wall, frog and to a less extent, the sole. This is in accord with the trimmers. They both agree that the wall itself should be bevelled or chamfered. Barefoot trimmers like to be somewhat more aggressive than farriers who consider a good bevel should only extend through to the waterline. If this then is the crux of the argument, it appears to be very minor indeed.

Where it all comes unstuck though is the differing philosophies on horse management. The trimmers would like to control all aspects of their 'client's relationship with their equine friends.' (Barefoot trimmer speak). Where and how the horse is kept seems to feature highly on the wish list of the trimmer's sphere of influence. They want the horse to be continually on the move. (Reference; J Jackson, Paddock Paradise: A guide to Natural Horse Boarding, 2007). Likewise how and where the horse is ridden appears to take up a considerable amount of line inches in the barefoot trimmer narratives.

Here then, as I see it, are the differences. Farriers shoe horses so that the customer can ride their horse, more or less, at their convenience. After all it's the customer that pays the bills. These days most owners ride for pleasure and frequently their leisure time is at a premium. Barefoot Trimmers want to monopolise their client's free time while restricting their use of their horse for up to a year or more. Initially they schedule trims as frequently as every two weeks. Farriers trim those horses that can manage without shoes, on average every six to eight weeks. These horses don't need to 'transition' for a year. They don't go lame as they are typically turned out or only ridden once or twice a week. It is largely in this later group (the happy hackers) and somewhat to a much lesser extent, the group of horses that are unshod and used in competitions, that the Barefoot Trimmers have gained a toe-hold in the farriery world. If you are unhappy with your farrier's job, talk to him/her. Find out if he/she is qualified. If he/she is not qualified then try and find a qualified farrier. If your farrier is qualified ask them if they are a member of the NZ Farrier Association. This controlling body is happy to help out if you have no joy with resolving your issues with its members. If you are thinking of using a Barefoot Trimmer then try it. See if it suits you and your horse. You may be required to purchase boots for your horse and these come with their own challenges. (But surely this should be abhorrent to your Barefoot Trimmer as boots are in fact just a different sort of shoe.)

This advice however comes with a warning. If your horse goes lame don't accept the trimmer's excuse that it's due to previous shoeings. This is absolute rubbish and just sounds petulant. Horses should not be lame from trimming, regardless if they have had shoes on or not. So if you are still in two minds, let me spell it out. Lameness from trimming, no matter who trims it, is NOT OK!
 
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