nativetyponies
Well-Known Member
Good Grief 
I post this link with a heavy heart
- Thread starter Cuffey
- Start date
Fenris
Well-Known Member
There is a facebook page supporting Mr. Brough and it seems that the RSPCA and BHS are posting pictures of horses that were already being treated by Mr. Bough and his vets at the time of the seizure - but are failing to tell anyone! See
http://en-gb.facebook.com/pages/Tut...nds-of-Caldbeck-Common/143354495690305?v=info
http://en-gb.facebook.com/pages/Tuttys-Shetlands-of-Caldbeck-Common/143354495690305?v=wall
http://www.slow-life.co.uk/2010/08/07/the-shetland-ponies-of-caldbeck-common/
SirenaXVI
Well-Known Member
I am sorry for the death of Mr Brough and would normally be the first to call the RSPCA useless, but having seen the pictures of those horses, their condition was unacceptable and how anyone could deny that is beyond me
Mr Brough seems to have been a collector of animals, he probably loved every one of them but he was unable to meet their needs, the photographs only confirm that, much as it pains me to say it.
Mr Brough seems to have been a collector of animals, he probably loved every one of them but he was unable to meet their needs, the photographs only confirm that, much as it pains me to say it.
Tormenta
Well-Known Member
I really don't understand this case?? Was he liasing with authorities?? Was there a probability an old man had become out of his depth and the liasing would result in numbers being reduced and a few fit geldings and mares allowed back onto the common?? Was he refusing all help? Why if animals were being treated and something seemed to be being done was he taken to a police station and all animals confiscated??
I'm confused
I'm confused
competitiondiva
Well-Known Member
So can I get this straight that if anyone commits/ed suicide after an rspca visit/investigation you want it documented to be rspca's fault??
OK what about police visits/investigations?, Social services? or to be fair shouldn't you be looking at any investigation by any investigatory body???? Or are you just going after rspca??!!!! mmm me thinks bee in your bonnet!!!
competitiondiva
Well-Known Member
HAHAHAHAHAHA, sorry just fell off sofa laughing!!! 8 weeks old???!!!???!!! mmmm I think you have your facts there a little wrong!! I doubt that it's even possible at 8 weeks!! As for putting down healthy animals unfortunately sometimes it may prove to be the only option, places such as dogs trust and cpl have a simple solution to not having to make this decision they just close their doors and say they are full........ rspca do not have this option, despite being full, and in many cases still have to find a solution .......................... It's great to live in an ideal world, but one doesn't exist I am afraid......
Last edited:
bexwarren24
Well-Known Member
I really don't understand this case?? Was he liasing with authorities?? Was there a probability an old man had become out of his depth and the liasing would result in numbers being reduced and a few fit geldings and mares allowed back onto the common?? Was he refusing all help? Why if animals were being treated and something seemed to be being done was he taken to a police station and all animals confiscated??
I'm confused
In answer to this maybe he did become out of his depth but if you read into it it sounds like these animals were being treated by his own vets. If you have that many ponies surely some of them are going to be ill! Maybe he should hav had some of these ponies PTS. Doesnt sound like ant help was offered by the rspca. The rspca dont normally bother to check if these animals are being treated, they seem to wade in feet first. There have been many cases reported where when it comes to trial you discover that said animal was previously under vets supervision.
bexwarren24
Well-Known Member
Ok, I think the castrating thing is defanetly a good thing, not one we should complain about but the RSPCA have closed their doors at many sancturies. Have you even read a newspaper recently? Its the smaller charities that are taking in the animals turned away by the rspca.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7102322.ece
RSPCA will turn away stray or unwanted pets from animal shelters from next month to cut costs and focus on policing animal cruelty, according to a memo obtained by Channel 4 News.
The decision could affect as many as 75,000 unwanted animals a year which are currently taken to RSPCA centres across England and Wales.
It comes after the RSPCA admitted that the number of abandoned pets is soaring.
The documents show that from May 4, 17 RSPCA animal centres will only take in animals which are RSPCA generated, which means seized by inspectors in cruelty cases or those which are at immediate risk or cruelty.
Pets belonging to people who are taken into hospital, evicted from their homes or are simply unwanted or found as strays will from that date normally be turned away. Unfortunate visitors holding the animal will be told to contact the police, the local council, or a vet.
The move has been criticised by animal lovers; one leading charity called it a "dereliction of duty".
Harvey Locke, president-elect of the British Veterinary Association warned if the RSPCA begins turning away animals which are merely unwanted, it could result in even more pets being abandoned.
I think the concern is that more unwanted pets may be left to fend for themselves, that people will just leave them on the streets or turf them out of their cars on the motorway. I would like to think that that would not happen but that is a risk, he told Channel 4 News.
The RSPCA defended the decision to phase out the service, saying it had no alternative but to make the change because of financial pressures.
Like any organisation at the moment we have to answer some difficult economic challenges. RSPCA has always prioritised which animals it takes in. We are looking to formalise that... to make sure that our finite resources go to the animals that need them most, said Tim Wass, head of inspectorate.
He said if there was evidence more animals were being simply abandoned they would take action and would refocus its work.
The report will be screen on Channel Four news tonight.
The RSPCA is Britains eighth largest charity, with an income of £119 million in 2008. The move comes as the organisation is making savings of £54 million over three years, with donations falling due to the recession.
In recent years it has expanded its role as the unofficial animal police, bringing criminal cases against owners for cruelty and neglect.
The charity investigated 140,575 cases in 2008, up from 110,841 three years earlier. It spent £11.1 million on prosecutions in 2008, compared with £7 million in 2007.
The rise is in part the result of the Animal Welfare Act, which came into effect in 2007 and which was strongly supported by the RSPCA, which introduced new offences of failures in animal welfare, rather than just cruelty.
Fenris
Well-Known Member
The RSPCA have admitted to spaying and castrating puppies as young as six weeks of age.
http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/rspca.shtml
Concerns have been raised in several papers.
http://www.stonedance.ca/images/Early Spay-Neuter1.pdf
and
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf
But some still support it
http://www.ukdoodles.com/spayneuter.htm
In terms of No Kill shelters I suggest you read
http://www.nathanwinograd.com/
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
Fenris, what has that to do with these ponies though? and are the RSPCA really responsible for current thoughts and trends in how/when spaying/neutering is carried out? stop deflecting-they arent a perfect organisation, they are hugely inefficient but really what they do is insanely difficult and they are dammed if they do or dont.
the issue here is these ponies but I don't think we are going to get the true story from you. the fact is they were left to breed indiscriminantly, I doubt they had basic care such as worming, feet etc and its doubtful looking at the ponies that any nutrition on the moor was adequate. the ones rescued from his stables were in a disgusting state and I do sympathise with the family but he was obviously not coping.
the issue here is these ponies but I don't think we are going to get the true story from you. the fact is they were left to breed indiscriminantly, I doubt they had basic care such as worming, feet etc and its doubtful looking at the ponies that any nutrition on the moor was adequate. the ones rescued from his stables were in a disgusting state and I do sympathise with the family but he was obviously not coping.
Knick78
New User
I work for Redwings and I can say in response to Fenris' comment regarding the photos, that the photos currently displayed on the Redwings website are the same as those provided by the RSPCA and they are of animals that are currently in the care of the charities, not ones that have previously been treated by a vet as Fenris suggests. I would also say that charities like Redwings, WHW and the British Horse Society, not to mention the RSPCA, would never get involved in such a big and complex rescue operation if they did not genuinely believe there was good reason. We are publicly funded and resources are always stretched so we don't take any such decisions lightly.
BBH
Well-Known Member
This is rubbish, horses shouldn't suffer to that degree because they are unfortunate to be one of a number. The other thing I would say is that they should have had veterinary treatment way before they ever got into the state on those photo's. People who care about their animals and ' Love them' do not let them starve like that. It looks like if they were being treated by his own vet it was only after they were discovered and he was told to get his act together. Horses don't look like that overnight.
It is very sad this man took his own life but that was his choice at the end of the day. At least the horses stand a better chance of treatment now they have been rescued.
Last edited:
Fenris
Well-Known Member
When we have as many statistics as we can get we can compare them to those for the other organisations you have mentioned (and some others!)
All we are doing is collectiong the numbers at the moment. Why are you so upset about that?
Fenris
Well-Known Member
I did not post the original reference to early spay/neuter. I posted a link to correct a claim that it was impossible and also links to the arguments on both sides.
People have to make their own minds up about what is going to work for them and their animals, taking into account their own circumstances and their animal's medical history. The only way they can do that is by reading the claims from both sides and then discussing matters with their own vet.
The problem of people who get older not coping with animals that they have owned for many years and are clearly emotionally attached to needs addressing in the horse world. (Note that this is not a comment on the care of the Brough's ponies, since that is now going to come out in court.)
The Cinnamon Trust help elderly people who have become either too old or ill to cope with the daily care or their animals. They do not condemn them or drag them through the courts. http://www.cinnamon.org.uk/
When did you last hear of the RSPCA going to anyone and cleaning up after their animals or sending volunteers round to feed, groom or exercise them?
Instead they prefer the kudos of glamorous court cases and to separate owner and animal without a care for the mental distress felt by both.
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
I still cannot find any information as to what, if any, discussion had taken place between Mr. Brough and the agencies involved. I still find it odd that he was arrested and held at a police station while the animals were removed, rather than being present to assist with the removal, or at least to allow him to see them removed in the most humane manner.
Sparky86
Member
Those ponies are in an awful state. If we'd seen those pictures and been told they hadn't been removed then everyone would be complaining that the rspca never act. Having seen those pictures i really cannot see why people think the rspca did the wrong thing in removing them. It's so sad that the man killed himself but no one should be allowed to let animals suffer like that. Even if they were being treated by his vet i still think they were right to remove them, they didn't get in that state overnight and their well being clearly was neglected over a long period of time. He was either unable or unwilling to care for them but either way no one has a right to keep animals like this whatever their circumstances. This is a really sad case but i can't see that there was any choice than to remove them given their condition. He probably didn't need to be taken to the police station but as we weren't there we don't know the circumstances. It is a massive job to remove that many horses so maybe they felt it was easier for him not to be there.
Kittykins
Well-Known Member
Having seen the pictures it seems clear that the state of some of the ponies at least did warrent removal and immediate veterinary attention. I don't think the question is really whether or not the RSPCA should have removed them now, it's more a question of how well the case was handled by them overall. If the ponies were in prominent view of the public, as seems to be the case, why were some of the ponies allowed to get into such a terrible state - and why was it only then that the RSPCA saw fit to wade in in this heavy handed way?
Surely a much more humane approach - for both ponies and owner alike - would have been to have worked with the owner at a much earlier stage to ensure that he kept the ponies in a more suitable manner. He clearly cared very much about the animals, so why not help him to look after them properly, by giving advice / working with him? The only reason they should have had for removal would be if he was no longer able financially to look after them - which I'm sure, with a little gentle, kind persuasion, could have been done with his co-operation.
It does appear that the RSPCA too often removes animals when working to educate owners who do actually care about the animals but are unaware of their shortcomings as owners might be a better approach for all involved.
bexwarren24
Well-Known Member
Kittykins I think you have sumed this up well. No-one can argue that the ponies in the photos dont need vetenary care. If you listen to the family though (and I have through facebook) they are certain that they were recieving it. I guess thats one to be argued in court, its all one persons word vs another but if true will easily be proved in a court of law when they get their own vets up to defend them. Its the way the RSPCA go about things. Instead of educating and helping they persecute and terrorise.
competitiondiva
Well-Known Member
I love the way everyone seems to think the rspca is all for prosecutions, being bully's, tackling only 'easy' targets!!! If any of you had actually worked with the charity you would know how wrong you are!!!!!
Also everyone loves to assume.... and on this forum in particular people automatically assume the worst of the rspca, really they are damned if they do and damned if they don't!!! If they had offered advice or help when they discovered these ponies in need of immediate vet care everyone on here would have been playing merry hell about it! If the rspca discover an outright offence of un-necessary suffering and the animal needs immediate care then how can the rspca be accused of being wrong to do that, and be accused of heavy handedness???!!! If minor offenses are discovered then the rspca do offer time and if possible help for the owner to help themselves out of a problem. It all depends on the situation, and of course anyone who doesn't work with them would only ever hear about the cases where the animals are removed, not those that are able to stay with their owner with assistance, those don't get headlines!!!! So no one hears about them!!!
Now with regard to this gentleman being held at a police station, this is not common practice. The police are always in attendance when animals are seized and if this man started to cause trouble or obstruct the removal then the police (not the rspca) would remove him.... (if this was the case)
Also everyone loves to assume.... and on this forum in particular people automatically assume the worst of the rspca, really they are damned if they do and damned if they don't!!! If they had offered advice or help when they discovered these ponies in need of immediate vet care everyone on here would have been playing merry hell about it! If the rspca discover an outright offence of un-necessary suffering and the animal needs immediate care then how can the rspca be accused of being wrong to do that, and be accused of heavy handedness???!!! If minor offenses are discovered then the rspca do offer time and if possible help for the owner to help themselves out of a problem. It all depends on the situation, and of course anyone who doesn't work with them would only ever hear about the cases where the animals are removed, not those that are able to stay with their owner with assistance, those don't get headlines!!!! So no one hears about them!!!
Now with regard to this gentleman being held at a police station, this is not common practice. The police are always in attendance when animals are seized and if this man started to cause trouble or obstruct the removal then the police (not the rspca) would remove him.... (if this was the case)
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
quite. as noone has the facts why is the RSPCA being held as the villain? why not wait and see....oh because waiting and seeing is far more difficult than being outraged.
I would be very interested to hear what the man's vets have to say although I have known cases of vets continuing to treat animals under difficult circumstances because it was better that someone was treating them than noone.
Kittykins
Well-Known Member
So it's not damned if you do, damned if you don't. If they'd handled the case better, there would have been no story in the paper, and we wouldn't be discussing this right now.
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
we don't know if they've handled the case badly. he took it badly but at the moment we do not have the facts in order to judge.
Fenris
Well-Known Member
The only comment from his vets that is in the public domain is this from
http://www.cumberlandnews.co.uk/new...ound-hanged-1.737226?referrerPath=2.1825/home
"Paragon Veterinary Group has castrated many of the ponies over the last two years.
David Black from the group said this week: Of the ponies we saw, considering their management as wild ponies, the vets involved did not have concerns about their body condition."
Double_choc_lab
Well-Known Member
As with all cases I think it's best to see the evidence before commenting. The horses photograpahed are very obviously suffering. IF the RSPCA had not acted they would have been accused of negligence. However nothing detracts from the very sad situation that the man concerned took his own life.
DragonSlayer
Well-Known Member
I agree with all you say.
I've had nothing but good dealings with the RSPCA. Every call answered, every concern always followed up. I hate the way some people seem to be sheep here and follow on and all scream 'WE HATE THE RSPCA!'....I think you really need to check out the bigger picture...
The pictures shown of why the horses were removed is clear. Can some people not see that? As for the case where it had been strangles that had caused the abcesses on the horses....the horses were in poor condition, THAT was admitted, the charity was only doing it's best by taking action as it did. The man was cleared in the end, and was sad he suffered ill health through it all, but justice prevailed.....
Why are some of you so quick to slate when you seem to over-look the good work they DO get done? There are only so many hours in a day. There are only so many people the charity can afford to pay. It's not just paying them...what about the vans, and insurance, and the rescue centres? You think those are cheap to run?
Look at the Police, they are also over-strecthed, I had chickens stolen 3 times in as many years, not once did they come to the scene of the crime 'because we don't have the man-power to investigate chickens'....might seem trivial to some, it was a big deal to me...
We are over-populated in this country and it's bound to get worse over time, due to advances in medicine etc. We can safely say then, that the people who get animals will increase too, thus meaning more animals will find themselves possibly in bad situations.
The RSPCA is over-stretched and is doing it's very best. Get out of your heads this 'RSPCA are bullies and hound innocents' way of thinking.
The COURTS will decide that. It's not for you to lay judgement. Sure, an opinion is fine, just make sure it's warranted and not just a load of bull***** just coz you read the title of the thread and couldn't be bothered to investigate more, afterall, if it's posted as a thread, it's GOT to be true, right??
Last edited:
DragonSlayer
Well-Known Member
The key phrase here is '....of the ponies we SAW'....
bexwarren24
Well-Known Member
If the RSPCA are over streched then why spend money taking such people to court? It cost tens of thousands to get the strangels trial through the courts. Money which could be spent better elsewhere. I agree some ppl need to be prosecuted but anyone could see that this case was nowhere near strong enough to even been considered to have gone through the courts. I am sure the RSPCA do some good but I also think they are extremly wasteful. Millions of pounds on expensive offices.
Its ok for you to say "its ok he was proved innocent" but how would you like it if one of your horses got ill and you were known in your local area as an animal abuser? Were dragged through a 3 year ordeal? Oh and had your horse taken away from you for this time too?
As for being sheep, I seem to be going against the grain so would defanetly not class myslef as a sheep.
DragonSlayer
Well-Known Member
Why take people to court? Isn't it because they COULD be breaking the law? simple answer, that one...why put laws in place if they could be percieved as never being enforced?
Yes, it IS ok for me to be saying that because it's never happened to me, of that I agree, but life is NEVER fair I'm afraid. These things happen. The officers were acting to the best of their intentions, whether you agree or not doesn't come into it. The judge was the presiding figure in this case and by all accounts agreed the man was innocent.
A friend I know was jailed for quite a few weeks over something her ex had set her up for. Case was thrown out of court and he was heavily punished for wasting the courts time, and the time of the police. It all wasn't fair and she suffered for it...but it happens. She walked away with an untarnished reputation as they say, but yeah....times were difficult.
Innocent people go through hardships. You don't like it when it happens to you....but it's life.
As for being a sheep....well, you draw your own conclusions as to whether you fall into that category, I named no names....
Xlthlx
Well-Known Member
We have wild deer which are often left to die from 'natural causes'. Would it be so bad if in the wilder places in Britain we had truly wild ponies? You'd have the problem of over population but this could be resolved by pony stalkers and also re introducing wolves.
Or hunting of course although some people might have moral qualms about using horses to hunt other ponies.
Or hunting of course although some people might have moral qualms about using horses to hunt other ponies.
Last edited:
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
I don't see where we have the room and considering the outcry that happens about wild horse culls in australia and the US I can't see it happening. and introducing wolves, are you for real? estate managers up here are still poisoning raptors! they've had some success in population control on Chincoteague using immunocontraceptives.
the closest think we have to feral ponies in the UK are the semi-feral exmoor herds on exmoor, cumbria and scotland but they still have to be managed.