I think barefoot trimmer may have conned me!

badgermyers said:
it seems best results are acheived via a farrier trimming with vet supervision for the barefoot side of things.
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Good grief where have you been looking? Have you not seen and heard of the number of us who have recovered horses that farriers and vets have given up on? I'm on my second. The first was about to be put down for navicular after adequan, tildren, HLA and remedial shoes. The second will not stay sound in shoes even though he has been shod to xrays. Rockley Farm has done probably 40 by now which had already been through the gamut of medication and remedial farriery and were still lame. And there are loads of other people on this forum with similar experiences. Where HAVE you been looking for your evidence :eek: ??????
 
badgermyers said:
I am just interested in the difference as barefoot people think barefoots best yet shoeing can help balance out any issues ect.
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But even if the two approaches were equally successful, and they aren't by a long, long chalk, why use shoes when the horse can do a millimetre perfect job for itself?
 
shysmum said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - a farrier has done a 5 YEAR APPRENTICESHIP in hooves - how long has a so called "barefoot trimmer" trained for ??
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You do understand, I hope, that the syllabus that he follows during his apprenticeship does not cover working barefoot horses. And that the only experience he will have of trimming a barefoot horse in normal work is if the master who he is apprenticed to has some on his books?

Are you also aware of just how many horses which could not be brought sound by farriery are being brought sound by a barefoot approach, and that the main driver behind this change has been the barefoot trimming movement?

Many farriers do an excellent job on barefoot horses. But in the main, it is in spite of their training. Not because of it.
 
cptrayes said:
I do not agree with this and I am a fully paid up member of the barefoot taliban. There is a good trim and a bad trim. There is no such thing as a barefoot trim or a farrier trim. There is no "right way to trim", either there is only the correct trim for one foot on any one particular horse.

Many farriers know how to trim hardworking barefoot horses and did before the term "barefoot trim" was ever coined.
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I would have to disagree as my barefoot trimmer is doing things differently to any farrier i have ever used, the point i was making is that if you ask a 99 out of 100 farriers for a trim then you will get a pasture trim and that is all they will do, which isnt really what you would want for riding out barefoot. The preconception is that trimmers are just people who havent bothered to learn how to be a farrier, which of course in the vast majority is not the case.
 
weebarney said:
I would have to disagree as my barefoot trimmer is doing things differently to any farrier i have ever used, the point i was making is that if you ask a 99 out of 100 farriers for a trim then you will get a pasture trim and that is all they will do, which isnt really what you would want for riding out barefoot. The preconception is that trimmers are just people who havent bothered to learn how to be a farrier, which of course in the vast majority is not the case.
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I do not believe that you can substantiate your figure of only 1 in 100 farriers being able to trim a working barefoot horse. There are many barefoot horses belonging to people on this forum being trimmed well by farriers.
 
I dont really no what is up but you are picking at thin air really! arguing for arguing sake. NO i have not done a nationwide survey of farriers ok believe it or not. I can only go by my own experience of farriers as does everyone who has opinions on things. I have probably used around 10 farriers over the years, none have trimmed the feet like the trimmer. That is my point, multiply that figure up and it arrives at 90 out of 100. 99 out of 100 is merely a phrase you are maybe not familiar with. It basically means the majority. I hope i have cleared things up. Please dont clog this thread being picky and deviating from the point of the post.
 
badgermyers said:
but it seems best results are acheived via a farrier trimming with vet supervision for the barefoot side of things.
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I find that hard to believe that purely because I cannot see how there are enough cases of a vet supervising a farrier trimming any horse never mind a specifically "barefoot method" one to draw any sort of conclusion.

My ex was a farrier and specifically involved with the barefoot brigade about ten years ago. He ended up giving talks about it to other farriers because other farriers wanted to know about it :cool: he was the sort of farrier willing to listen to what the owner wanted to achieve. He didn't at that time believe in it but it would be interesting to find out if he does now, if I ever speak to him again :o
 
weebarney said:
I dont really no what is up but you are picking at thin air really! arguing for arguing sake. .
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I am not arguing for arguing's sake. I am arguing because it does no good for barefoot to trot out the age old "pasture trim" and "barefoot trim" stuff. It's months, about a year I think, since I saw it last on this forum and frankly it's rubbish.

There's no such thing as a "pasture trim". Why would anyone want a horse trimmed less well than it could be even if it's only out at grass? That's just a "bad" trim.

On the other hand, there is a good trim for that foot on that horse. Plenty of farriers can do a good trim and so can plenty of trimmers. There are also plenty of farriers who can't and unfortunately some trimmers who can't either. Not counting those trimmers who can but think it's somehow a bonus to spend two or three hours doing it, which I personally think is a total joke.
 
My farrier always encourages people to go barefoot if he thinks it would be best for the horse. He was saying that you never used to see so many underrun heels etc because people used to hunt during the winter and then the shoes came off and the horses were turned away, so they got a regular break from shoes. Nowadays most modern horses are expected to work 5 or six days a week throughout the year with no break year after year. It's no wonder we have so many broken horses.
 
TigerTail said:
In what way does shoeing balance out any issues? And why is putting an artificial aid on the bottom of the leg a better option than allowing the body to sort itself out?

Maybe another example of humans wanting a quick fix? hmmmm
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TigerTail said:
Which can be achieved with pads and boots......:)
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So pads and boots aren't artificial aids then? You totally contradicted yourself there..
 
I used to have the same argument. Boots and pads are a crutch. Blah blah blah. All horses do not need them for transition. Some do. By lifting the foot off the ground in shoes, the structures meant to support the foot naturally quit doing their job. In boots they are supported and can't start doing the job again. My 17 YO had shrivelled up frogs and they were flat as pancakes. His frogs are coming back slowly. His toes are a bit long after his first trim but they need to be right now.

And I personally don't think you can look at the feet and decide which will need boot support and won't. Frank had no bother going bare this time. Other attempts failed when we took off shoes and trimmed them nice and neat. The back of the foot could not support everything at once. Right now his toe is helping do that job. My farrier also showed me how his left front was a different shape on the bottom. These structures had to cope with his hock which has multiple chips in it from an accident 8 years ago before I bought him. So giving him perfect little feet after taking the shoes off also took away what the foot built to help him cope. I was supposed to put this horse down ages ago. He's amazing and I still ride him.

I'm not an expert. But I'm seeing my pitfalls and triumphs which all helps me learn. I had the biggest smile on my face yesterday jogging down the road on Heidi. The mare who couldn't stay sound in shoes and was heading for wedges. Thankfully my farrier said, please take her out of shoes and see how she goes. She needs it.

Terri
 
badgermyers said:
I am in my final year of equine and human sports science and it is to investigate the difference in foot balance between shod and unshod horses. Will also look into lameness history ect. I am just interested in the difference as barefoot people think barefoots best yet shoeing can help balance out any issues ect.
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What has that got to do with OP,s boots ?
 
OP I done think the trimmer conned you I think she got you the wrong size and now is behaving in a very unprofessional manner .
I don't know the law in Ireland but here she would have to exchange the boots for a pair that fit stand your ground with her .
Good luck
 
cptrayes said:
I am not arguing for arguing's sake. I am arguing because it does no good for barefoot to trot out the age old "pasture trim" and "barefoot trim" stuff. It's months, about a year I think, since I saw it last on this forum and frankly it's rubbish.

There's no such thing as a "pasture trim". Why would anyone want a horse trimmed less well than it could be even if it's only out at grass? That's just a "bad" trim.

On the other hand, there is a good trim for that foot on that horse. Plenty of farriers can do a good trim and so can plenty of trimmers. There are also plenty of farriers who can't and unfortunately some trimmers who can't either. Not counting those trimmers who can but think it's somehow a bonus to spend two or three hours doing it, which I personally think is a total joke.
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Funny that as i have a respected trimmer who told me that. I better tell the trimmer they wrong and that they ought to come to Horse and hound to learn their trade properly. My post was advising the OP maybe not to bother buying ANOTHER pair of boots and just try roadwork instead to self trim the horses feet as she is having difficulty getting a farrier or trimmer. Now please read posts properly . And maybe getting off your high horse wouldnt go amiss either :)
 
weebarney said:
Funny that as i have a respected trimmer who told me that. I better tell the trimmer they wrong and that they ought to come to Horse and hound to learn their trade properly. My post was advising the OP maybe not to bother buying ANOTHER pair of boots and just try roadwork instead to self trim the horses feet as she is having difficulty getting a farrier or trimmer. Now please read posts properly . And maybe getting off your high horse wouldnt go amiss either :)
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IMO a pair of boots is an excellent thing to have for when and if you need them each of my horses has a pair which I confess are rarely used but I know I have if I need them so don't need to stop work.
 
LOL at this thread, just because the OP mentioned barefoot in the title :D

OP I should post again asking for Irish consumer legal advice in the title.

Bet you dont get many replies :rolleyes:
 
Goldenstar said:
IMO a pair of boots is an excellent thing to have for when and if you need them each of my horses has a pair which I confess are rarely used but I know I have if I need them so don't need to stop work.
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Only said to try without as she said she couldnt afford to buy 4 at once so forking out for more at this time might be unnecessary. I read somewhere on line of a horse who went out eventing 2 weeks after going barefoot, although not advised but really shows what barehooves are capable of.
 
Goldenstar said:
Oh sorry missed that was speed reading the thread.
Out of interest where are you finding the horses for your dissertation ?
And are youcomparing horses with lameness issues or sound working shod and BF horses?
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horses must be sound at current and working yes. Not sure where my horses will come from yet as not collecting data yet. I want around 20 of each. I will start sourcing them soon. /i will ask about lameness history
 
badgermyers said:
horses must be sound at current and working yes. Not sure where my horses will come from yet as not collecting data yet. I want around 20 of each. I will start sourcing them soon. /i will ask about lameness history
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Have got three BF working horses don't know what it will entail but bare it in mind if you have to look far afield to find them.
 
Op, I had to click on your profile and look at your post to see if you appeared to have actually got an answer to your question. What is it with people hijacking threads vaguely relating to barefoot horses at every turn??

I would have thought that the situation would be the same as if a saddler had sold you a saddle that didn't fit, or a farrier had sold you boots that didn't fit (some do sell boots), etc. It's a consumer rights issue. Do you have an equivalent of a Citizens Advice Bureau you could talk to next week?
 
Why can't some people get it into their heads that there are good farriers and bad farriers....good trimmers and bad trimmers....

I'm a teacher and I know there are good teachers and bad teachers......

Same goes for -

Police officers
Doctors
Nurses
Solicitors

..etc etc etc...

What works for one, might not work for another.
 
ester said:
is that not where owner research comes in though Paulag? I wouldn't employ any horse care professional without first 1) checking they were in some way qualified/registered with an appropriate body and 2) asking around and getting references from other people i trust. The same applies to farriers as much as trimmers.

Rowreach I was wondering whether the OP might have had farrier difficulties given what you have said previously about farriery in Ireland
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Cortez said:
Why? There are qualified farriers in Ireland; why not use them?
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Personally I wouldn't let a barefoot trimmer anywhere near my horses, but I am in the lucky position whereby I'm married to a fantastic farrier who will shoe the ones that need it and not shoe the ones that don't.

However, there are a lot of appalling farriers in Ireland, some who are unqualified because they don't have to be, and some who are qualified and are rubbish at what they do. Finding one who is qualified AND good at the job is very difficult. Apart from my OH there is only one farrier within 30 miles of here who is good (and he is very good). It sounds like the OP is in a similar area elsewhere in Ireland. It really isn't as easy as some people are suggesting to get good hoof care over here as it might be in other places :(
 
weebarney said:
Funny that as i have a respected trimmer who told me that. I better tell the trimmer they wrong and that they ought to come to Horse and hound to learn their trade properly.
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Trimmers who go around saying most farriers can only do a "pasture trim" are doing the barefoot debate immense harm. In my opinion.
 
If the trimmer is a qualified (DA)EP they will be on this list. http://appliedequinepodiatry.org/Europe.html

To my knowledge there are no quallified members of EPA practicing in Ireland. http://www.epauk.org/findep.php

I don't know what you can do tbh... I believe once boots have been scuffed they cannot be returned. Have a look at Phoenixhorse forum. There is a sticky thread about boots and other threads about problems with fit.
 
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Rowreach said:
Personally I wouldn't let a barefoot trimmer anywhere near my horses, but I am in the lucky position whereby I'm married to a fantastic farrier who will shoe the ones that need it and not shoe the ones that don't.

However, there are a lot of appalling farriers in Ireland, some who are unqualified because they don't have to be, and some who are qualified and are rubbish at what they do. Finding one who is qualified AND good at the job is very difficult. Apart from my OH there is only one farrier within 30 miles of here who is good (and he is very good). It sounds like the OP is in a similar area elsewhere in Ireland. It really isn't as easy as some people are suggesting to get good hoof care over here as it might be in other places :(
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Now, see, I just have to disagree: of COURSE there are bad farriers here - there are bad farriers everywhere - but there are also excellent farriers too, you just have to ask around and get recomendations/warnings. I've actually seen MORE lame horses when judging in the UK than here, if that means anything? (I'm not saying this is due to farrier issues, but it IS interesting).
 
DragonSlayer said:
Why can't some people get it into their heads that there are good farriers and bad farriers....good trimmers and bad trimmers....

I'm a teacher and I know there are good teachers and bad teachers......

Same goes for -

Police officers
Doctors
Nurses
Solicitors

..etc etc etc...

What works for one, might not work for another.
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Agree. But I don't think the farrier vs trimmer debate will EVER end....!

OP tbh I would sell the boots if she faffs around any more if/when she next speaks to you, put it down to experience and find myself a new trimmer/farrier. If she can't afford to buy them back off you then she's clearly not get much business going her way, which speaks for itself.
 
Whether she is a decent trimmer or not she clearly hasn't thought through the business practicalities of supplying boots. It probably seemed like a good idea to supply boots alongside services but it's not worked out as expected but that is her problem.

If she has bought the boots trade then she presumably did not pay the full retail price so has less to lose than you if they are sold on as just tried on on eBay or one of the barefoot sites and that's what she should do.

If she does that and I was happy with how my horse is going I might continue to use her. Better that than someone who is very switched on businesswise but no good at the rest.

As a general point your horses feet can change so much that boots you buy at the beginning may not fit later so it is always worth looking for secondhand, that way if they don't fit you are only out of pocket for the postage.
 
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