I would like to open up a debate

Do you prefer cadburys or Galaxy chocolate

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I haven't read it all so far but I have come up with the following -

Are EP's insured?

Who can you complain to if the EP makes a mess? I can complain to the FRC if my farrier screws up, and they will step in.

It must be remembered that there are good and bad in every job - its up to you to step in if you feel you are recieving a bad service - the FRC is there for that purpose.

WELFARE is what should be our utmost priority, not fashion, not cost, not anything else. Welfare.
 
You could have a look her, this is how one organisation handles things. They have courses for farriers too.
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http://www.uknhcp.org/index.html
Of course trimmers are insured, they'd be stupid if they weren't, just like any other professional. Would you ask that question of your farrier? I fit saddles, nobody has ever asked about my insurance.
Sadly, I think WELFARE is one reason why some people have changed to trimmers from farriers.
For myself, I've told the story too many times and Farrier knows it so I'm not going to repeat myself.
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I would only use a farrier, i'm very lucky to have a super farrier who is always prompt and does a super job, yes he has been known to tell off the horse - justified too, but not ott. I don't get people having an issue with farriers telling off the horse. If the horse is leaning on you or faffing about why should anyone put up with 300kgs+ treating you like sh1t and risking your health and livlihood, your horse is just one of many, personally i wouldn't tolerate that behaviour why should he.
 
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Another 'would only use a qualified farrier' person. I have had a couple of farriers. One I dropped because of his attitude, the others due to moving etc. The current farrier I have had for eight years now, and dread the day he retires. We have a cob who is shod, and he does an absolutely fantastic job. This cob has white hooves, has been shod since the age of 3 and is now 18. last year he went unshod for several months, not a moments soreness.(I can't believe people still think white hooves are weaker than black)
My other equines have all been unshod, and have all worked on every type of terrain, for many hours at a time quite often, but never had any issues.
My farrier actually now has approx 60% of his clientele going unshod, thier choice, along with his opinion as they progress.

Now, barefoot trimmers, I expect that there are perfectly good ones, but, for me, they are not properly trained, so I wouldn't trust them. the biggest issue though is that if they take an hour per trim, I would be spending a whole day having mine trimmed. Cost wise, it would cost me £325 per session with a BFT, it costs me £50 for a farrier. We would also still need a farrier to shoe the HW cob who drives, so must have shoes for the amount of work he does.

To sum up, I am not pro or anti being shod or unshod. I am however pro farrier and anti BFT
 
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I haven't read it all so far but I have come up with the following -

Are EP's insured?

Who can you complain to if the EP makes a mess? I can complain to the FRC if my farrier screws up, and they will step in.

It must be remembered that there are good and bad in every job - its up to you to step in if you feel you are recieving a bad service - the FRC is there for that purpose.

WELFARE is what should be our utmost priority, not fashion, not cost, not anything else. Welfare.

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That's exactly why the Applied Equine Podiatry assocation is activiely involved in the setting of new guidelines

interesting read:
http://www.epauk.org/position_statement_feb_09.php

Especially this quote:

"Our members hold equine welfare to be of the highest importance and will never countenance a horse being used at a level or type of work that the feet are not capable of achieving safely. Where appropriate, our members will advise clients to keep shoes on a horse or to re-shoe it if that is the most appropriate for the horse."
 
Farriers everytime.

Horses are either unshod or shod.

The doctoring ( by the 'barefoot' fraternity) of the shape of the hoof to something totally unsuitable for the animal, but following some 'perfect hoof' guideline horrifies me.

I've seen some very scary sights and the owners have no idea what damage has been/is being done to their horses'feet.

Until 'trimmers' have to attend a similar course to farriers, it's a no-brainer.
 
I have used farriers, KC La Pierre trained trimmers and also UKNHCP trimmers. I don't have any fixed ideological allegiances to any of these. What I want is a professional who will arrive reasonably close to the appointed time, who is contactable in between trims if necessary, and who will do a good job of balancing and trimming my horses feet. That last statement is THE most important consideration for me.

What has happened in my area is that there were a few old farriers who are now (well) into their 60s and 70s who were amazing, knowledgeable, fabulous horsemen with regard to the whole horse, not taking feet in isolation - these have now all retired and they are missed tremendously. The younger farriers who have come to the area are in my opinion sloppy. I don't want a training farrier who races his apprentice to see who can remove, trim and shoe a horse the fastest. I don't want any body who allows the feet to flare/doesn't remove enough height allowing the feet to become upright and boxy or doesn't address balance allowing the toes to come gradually forwards and the heels to collapse underneath. I don't want someone who will leave the foot unbalanced medially/laterally (this is the most common issue I personally have found). I don't want someone who will tell me this is a conformation issue when I have had the horse concerned well over a decade and know damn well what is conformational and how his feet have been over many years.

I am lucky in that my horses are able to do the work required of them either shod or unshod, they mainly work in a sand and rubber school that is not too abrasive and we have extensive off road hacking straight off the farm. I do not therefore need a farrier to put shoes on.

So, how did I come to use a trimmer? Young version of God of farriers lives the other side of the County, he used to shoe my horses but, being inundated with customers who want to use him, decided that he didn't want to come out to mine any more and I am not able to transport all of them to him frequently. I tried the other local farriers, using the main one who comes to my yard for about 1 year (ie, enough time for a full hoof capsule to grow in) and was in despair about the state of the horses' feet and was not aware of any other good local people who were taking on customers. I was recommended to use a trimmer (EP) - I did consider how much training she had had, but also, I wanted to see horses/hooves she had been trimming for some time in order to see whether she did a good/bad/indifferent job on them.

I'd got nothing to lose by this stage, one of my horses would have had to be put down if I hadn't been able to find someone who could trim a horse with poor lower limb/foot conformation to a standard where he was comfortable in his field (16 year old then, owned since 3, elderly and younger God of farriers had both kept him working and sound despite his awful conformation). She achieved this and did acceptable jobs on the other horses. I then changed to another EP as I felt the first one was (as is commonly levelled against farriers) taking on too many clients and starting to rush jobs and struggle to fit in appointments. This second EP did a fantastic job for about another year until she unfortunately had a period of illness and while she was ill I started to use 2 UKNHCP trimmers who work together. Both the horse with poor conformation and a pony with a laminitic foot conformation have both exhibited serious improvement while in their care and the other horses with good feet also do well. I am therefore satisfied with the care being provided to my horses presently.

As I said above, I do not hold with the crusading extremists of ANY persuasion, I want to make my own mind up based on the quality of work done on other people's horses before I will use somebody and on the ongoing quality of work on my own horses.

I continue to ask any body I come across in the locality (shows, etc) who's horses are well shod who it is that they use, in case I feel I need to change for any reason in the future. Unfortunately in my area I do not see many well shod horses, and those that are usually turn out to be Junior God of Farriers' customers.

I do feel that this is a local issue, for me, and that there are other pockets of the country where this is also true as while travelling round the country to horse events (shows, training sessions, whatever) the overwhelming majority of horses ARE well shod, and in these areas I can see why people would question why trimmers are getting work, but in my area, the standard of farriery seen does not appear to be high. This may change, we have had some fairly newly qualified farriers come to the area and I do not yet know their work, so there is hope there.
 
I haven't voted in the poll as I use both a farrier (for the horses who have shoes) and a trimmer for those without.

Farrier charges £22 for a trim and trimmer charges £25.

Our farrier is lovely, polite and 100% on time and reliable. He does a good job with the horses and I'm always pleased with his shoeing
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His trim is different to our trimmers though; he doesn't put as much roll on the feet which I find, for our horses in work without shoes, lets their feet chip more easily as the wall gets pulled away from the white line.

Our trimmer has been trimming full time for 10 yrs, and has certainly done way more training than a 3 day course
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She's actively involved with the development of a central governing body for trimmers in the UK- which can't happen soon enough! Of course she's insured; no one in their right mind would work with horses, on any level, without having adequate insurance etc

If I heard either the trimmer or farrier bitching about each others work I'd loose respect for them on a professional level- it's total unprofessional and no way to conduct a business of any kind.

I look at it this way...... our farrier is a specialist in shoes, 95%+ of all his work will be shoeing. He is also especially interested in remedial shoeing, so does lots of additional learning in that area. The trimmer only trims, 100% of her work is trimming- she has more experience and practical knowledge of having horses in full work with no shoes.

Some of the earlier posts on this thread have left me a little surprised at the lack of understanding of basic horse knowledge and hoof care, and has left me questioning the ability of some people to asses the quality of work carried out by any farrier/ trimmer attending to their horse
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One final point; 1000's of horse in the UK go down with laminitis every year, and many others are affected by it on a lesser level. Is it not possible that horses who live in 'wood chip arenas' could be doing so not because they are lame in the field, but to reduce their grass intake and prevent hoof sensitivity due to low grade laminitis? And perhaps the trimmer who said something about 'grass is the food of the devil' (can't remember exactly what was posted) was also referring to the same (massive) problem in the UK?
 
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Lucyfer you shouldnt be trotting your horses on tarmac or concrete surfaces anyway

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is this a general 'shouldn't' or just Lucyfer's horse?

I ask because Dizzy has to get fit, and the Newmarket vet insists that she be able to trot for forty minutes continuously: I've explained that we only really have roads to do that much work, it's either that or our heads would be spinning from going round in circles: vet has said fine, do the trot work on the roads. For compeleness: Dizzy has 'bony irregularities' in her pelvis joint, and secondary damage to her hind suspensory ligaments.

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I would be wary of road work or start it up very slowly especially as she is shod as the shoes add to the concussion which as it travels up the joints and liagments can cause pain.

just take it easy and listen to Dizzy she will let you know if it hurts. It may strengthen the legs if done properly though
 
I chose to go barefoot, as he was loosing his shoes after only a couple of days, even with foot supplements his feet looked like a map there were so many cracks.

I had to persuade my farrier to leave him shoeless, but even he had to say it was the best thing we had done for him, and that he had the worst feet on his books, to being completly fine.
 
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The doctoring ( by the 'barefoot' fraternity) of the shape of the hoof to something totally unsuitable for the animal, but following some 'perfect hoof' guideline horrifies me.

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Forgive me gonetofrance, I normally agree with you on most things, but you've just illustrated one of the huge misunderstandings about how the barefoot trimmers work. They simply don't do that. They treat the hoof and the horse as individuals. What you are talking about sounds like Strasser trimming, and as far as I can see there isn't one person on this whole forum who has supported that!
 
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I was pleased to see this thead - i've spent the last few days researching BFT as my farrier and I are thinking one of mine woudl go better unshod, but I'm not sure you want a real debate judging by some of your responses.

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I cant say i want to or that am i impressed that you felt the need to call me an arrogant sh*t to try and prove a point.
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Nope, she said "I'm afraid that the way you come across just proves to me even more that farriers are arrogant sh*ts who think they are god's gift."

ie. your not doing much for the image of farriers - and i agree with her.

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You your self have said that you think all farriers are evil

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Nope, she said you she just said the one's in her experience weren't good. Not 'all' and not 'evil'.

For someone who said they wanted an even handed debate, you're doing a good job of doing down anyone who's pro-barefoot, even when they are being fair themselves - ie. only critising the farriers they have experience of.

You sound like youre losing customers.

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I think that you are the only ones who find my responses as such and that is a shame but again your opinion is of course welcome as this is a debate.

I can see clearly where farriers fall down in either customer relations, level of service or level of work which turns horse owners to BT.

There is although this is denied by the BT a huge movement of those with little or no training. I would like someone to show me the training they recieve and to hear that it is more lengthy than the three days/15 days/few months we hear about.

You wonder why farriers are so concerned about BT when we hear reports of horses being lamed, three barefoot trimmers have been charged with cruelty and so far no farrier has had this charge laid at his feet.
The only experience i have is of those that need to bash shoeing, bash farriers and belittle our work calling what we do a 'pasture trim' when often the trims they do are no different

No one has yet been able to say where they are different if they are and if they are not why call what we do JUST a pasture trim.

I dont see how this is a debate when the only response you have is to bash me. Thats always a good way of putting forth an argument.

and yes actually she did call me an aroogant sh*t if you read the whole sentance in the way in which it was intended.

If some one could actually supply the other sides argument as this was the information i was seeking.

(and Woeisme i still think you and i are still very much on a similar page)
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There is although this is denied by the BT a huge movement of those with little or no training. I would like someone to show me the training they recieve and to hear that it is more lengthy than the three days/15 days/few months we hear about.

You wonder why Farriers are so concerned about BT when we hear reports of horses being lamed, three barefoot trimmers have been charged with cruelty and so far no farrier has had this charge laid at his feet.


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Here you are... there is a course for Farriers as they don't need much of the teaching trimmers do.
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Perhaps contact this organisation and see what they have to say/offer. I'm not a Trimmer so cannot speak for them but I do know that this organisation is working very hard with Farriers and has Farriers on their list of Practitioners. So there are BF peeps who are trying to pull together with Farriers for the good of horses.
http://www.uknhcp.org/uknhcporientationforfarriers.html

The cruelty cases you speak of I believe were all cases of extreme trimming using the Strasser method. Most BF organisations do not trim to this extreme as neither do many Strasser trimmers themselves. These cases are appaling and to be condemned!! Sadly though many of the successful rehabilitation stories are over shadowed by these...

Do look up Pete Ramey though, he talks a lot of sense and has a knack of translating research into something even I can understand.
 
TheFarrier, I know that you certainly do not need any training, but would it be an idea to feign ignorance and enroll on a course, just to see what exactly BFT's are taught? Being an honest person though, this may not be a thing you would be happy to do.
 
I use a farrier - have always done and always will!! The reason is because farriers go on a 5 year (think that's right, correct me if i'm wrong!!) course and learn anatomy, balance, teqnique etc etc.........My farrier is great, he is pricey but bloody fantastic, and certainly not a rip off merchant, in fact he has taught me how to do a basic paddock trim on my broodmare and he sees her every second time and does anything necessary, checks foot balance etc
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he even offered me some of his old tools!! I have seen a barefoot trimmer in action on the yard sometime ago, I was not impressed, the horses feet looked dreadful, weak, underrun heels with no support - the horse was nappy, I think, due to sore feet....and she was paying nearly £50 for a trim, which, quite frankly I could have done better!!
Two of mine are shod, My welsh D couldn't cope without shoes being a delicate little flower!! his feet just broke up and he was so sore, shod he's happy and comfy.

I feel that barefoot trimmers need to be properly regulated and insured, there is nothing to stop me setting up as a trimmer, after a 3 day course, and wreaking havoc on the horse population, as apart from a paddock trim on my own broodmare, i wouldn't have a bloody clue what i'm doing!!!!
 
My horse is unshod and is trimmed by a farrier and so is the laminitic pony.....the other horse has fronts only.
The two boys are in their 30s and dont do much road work and the laminitic is fine with no shoes....i wouldnt think of having anyone other than my farrier tbh
 
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I would like someone to show me the training they recieve and to hear that it is more lengthy than the three days/15 days/few months we hear about.

You wonder why farriers are so concerned about BT when we hear reports of horses being lamed, three barefoot trimmers have been charged with cruelty and so far no farrier has had this charge laid at his feet.
a 'pasture trim' when often the trims they do are no different

No one has yet been able to say where they are different if they are and if they are not why call what we do JUST a pasture trim.



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actually I have infact said why they are different - my deap trims my horses hoof, deals with the sole the bars of the feet, the frog, sole depth etc etc farriers are not taught to do this in a standard pasture trim - looking at the width and depth of the frog, the sole depth etc, - I know this is fact because I have several friends who are recently qualified as farriers and they gave me access to their programme - I have also spoken to lecturers at two seperate farrier colleges who told me how much time is spent learning about various parts of the feet and how much on metal work - making lots of lovely thing sout of horse shoes. If you are after actual science then you need to speak with a trimmer - you arent likely to find one on here with the attitudes you see about something other than the traditional way of doing things.

You have also been provided with links to some of the training that deaps do - but dont appear to have visited these sites

Nothing so blind as those that will not see - if you are saying no farriers are cruel im very suprised, but if you genuinely want to challenge trimmers or learn more about it then why not join a trimmers board and just speak to some directly?

I could easily post on a NH site about NH versus traditional and know that I will get 90% response for NH, as this site is renound for being very 'traditional' you are always going to get support of a farrier versus a trimmer - if you are seeking a more informed debate then you would need to visit a slightly more open minded forum.
 
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The doctoring ( by the 'barefoot' fraternity) of the shape of the hoof to something totally unsuitable for the animal, but following some 'perfect hoof' guideline horrifies me.

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Forgive me gonetofrance, I normally agree with you on most things, but you've just illustrated one of the huge misunderstandings about how the barefoot trimmers work. They simply don't do that. They treat the hoof and the horse as individuals. What you are talking about sounds like Strasser trimming, and as far as I can see there isn't one person on this whole forum who has supported that!

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I have seen several examples where different trimmers have been so obsessed about flare, that they have created a boxy upright hoof on heavy horses, causing massive problems.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.
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There would be no need for Farrier to pretend he didn't know anything and register on a trimming course. There are courses specifically aimed at farriers that he could go to, and what a good way to exchange ideas and really find out what is going on. http://www.uknhcp.org/uknhcporientationforfarriers.html
I have met Dan Guerrera and he seemed a very sensible person, who has trained as a farrier and then studied to become an expert in barefoot trimming. Read what he says on this page, it's not fanatical at all. http://www.barehoof.com/About_Me.html
I don't think an internet discussion group is the best way to become informed about a topic, you really don't know what people's true experiences are, or what biases they may have. Maybe Farrier if you email Dan there could be a useful conversation, or even a meeting when he is in the UK.
One of my friends went on an owner's course with Dan, and indeed I think it was for 5 days. However he made it very clear that the object of the training was for the owners to get informed about their horses' feet, and for them to learn just enough to keep them tidy between visits from a professional. He warned some on the course to leave their horse's feet alone because they weren't straightforward.
I know that a lady has gone out on the strength of this course and is selling her services as a trimmer. Before I'm buried under a lot of "Told you so's" let me just add this - why on earth would anyone employ someone to care for their precious horse without checking their credentials? With a new farrier I look on the register. With the trimmer I looked up her professional association, and also knew of her extra study from contact with her over the years. With my Equine Touch practitioner I checked that she had passed her courses. So who's fault is it that this lady is managing to charge people for trims? I think it's the owners fault, because if they had contacted Dan they sure as heck would know not to employ her. (She went on a course in Gloucester by the way).
Farrier, yes, our views aren't that far apart. I think I just get very frustrated when people make everything so confrontational.
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Thank you for those links woeisme

I really dont know where the misconception that farriers dont know how to trim comes from. I will be doing further research on trimmers and making up my own mind. I have been already looking at the first link you suppliend and i have to say that those trims do not look any different to what i would be doing.

I cant say that the people on here who felt it was necessary to bash myself and my profession has made my way of thinking any different unfortunately

I myself have never been opposed to horses bieng barefoot where appropriate, in fact i have clients that insist on keeping the shoes on regardless of the fact that i have said it would be in the horses best interst to have no shoes for a while.
 
Mr horses are barefoot, I use a normal farrier because I trust him, I would NOT use a barefoot trimmer.

The only reason my horses are barefoot is because they have exceptionally hard feet, due in part to good nutrition and excellent farriery!
 
Farrier, I suspect what you are going to find is that the quality of trims done by farriers varies quite a lot. With my last farrier he was great when he first started looking after mine, but then he was newly-qualified and grateful for the business, and the recommendations I gave for him. He even went away and did a bit of research into Pete Ramey's work.
As time went on and he got more customers, I knew that I was slipping down his list of priorities with my 3 trims. He would come to the yard, do all the shod horses, then leave a message for me saying he had run out of time to do mine. Or arrive so late that it was too dark by the time he got to mine. He was happy to leave them for 12 weeks in the summer, but I wasn't. I would get the glance in their direction and "They'll be fine until next time". The last time I got that treatment I insisted that they were due to be done and that he didn't p off home after doing the shod horses, but keep to the appointment I'd booked and do the trims. My horses are really easy, I tie them up in a line and go make the tea that he's so keen on, so I didn't watch what he was doing. When he left I noticed some dumped and square toes, one pony that has great feet now had two fronts that were different shapes. I wasn't happy, but even more unhappy when I found that all of them were too sore to go out on the drive and I couldn't ride for weeks. End of farrier, enter the trimmer.
Sometimes I wonder why more farriers don't get behind this "barefoot movement" and start to specialise themselves. A farrier/now trimmer said to me that now he doesn't do shoeing his life is so much easier, less wear and tear on his body and he's making more money.
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I use (an excellent) farrier. When we had a youngster, he was patience itself getting him used to being trimmed. He had lovely strong feet (incidentally, white ones!) and would probably never need back shoes. Sadly, the breaking yard slapped front ones on him without consulting us or asking us if we wanted to get our own farrier to do it, but that is another story. Toffee has had front shoes only for several years, and the farrier does a fine job of trimming her back feet. Fraser has black feet but they are not strong and he is shod all round. There are a lot of people in the horse world who want to relieve people of their money, but personally, I like to give mine to a qualified professional. Incidentally, our farrier (Brian) has set up a website, for anyone interested in learning a bit more about farriery:

http://www.knowfootknowhorse.com/default1.asp
 
The Farrier - I would completely agree with what woeisme just said. In theory, there is no reason why a farrier could not do a good barefoot trim - you have all the training, after all. But in my experience, a lot of farriers are just not interested in coming out "just" to do a trim. They don't charge a lot for it, they could go somewhere else and put a full set of shoes on and earn more money. Also I think that so many farriers deal with mainly shod horses, that their trimming becomes more like shoeing but without putting on the shoe. If you understand me? Going in quite aggressively with the hoof pincers, taking off lots of growth, paring right down, etc.

The barefoot trimmer does not do shoes, ever, they are not trained to. So their trims, again, in my experience, are a lot more mindful of the function of the barefoot hoof. My trimmer has only ever used pincers on my horse ONCE in a year of trimming. Most times she just corrects the balance with the rasp, tidies his hoof up and that's it. I can probably give you a long list of local farriers who would take more hoof off than she does and therefore leave him struggling to work. And before you jump to conclusions, no, she does not leave his hoof too long in any way, shape or form - just the correct trim and balance for his level of work.

I think a lot of farriers undoubtedly have the skills to do a good trim, but they lose them because they do not practise them enough, and are unfamiliar or unsupportive of the working horse being barefoot. I think this is why people say a farrier does a pasture trim - because a lot of them take too much hoof off and leave the horse only sound enough to wander round the field! Like it or not, that is fact in my experience. Your colleagues are not doing you any favours.

And to the person who said they would complain to the FRC if they had a problem with a farrier - good luck. I tried it once and they were not interested.
 
Can I just add that I really resent the implication, much repeated, that none of the barefoot trimmers are qualified professionals? If people took the time to educate themselves in this they would find that is not the case. As I've said before, if you choose to use someone who isn't qualified then on your own head be it, but the qualifications are there and can be verified. If they weren't then the trimmers couldn't get insurance, and they can.
Such knee-jerk reactions really don't help a debate do they? I thought the point of this thread was to share information, so why not read the many links that people have taken the time to post and get informed before repeating all this inacurate information.
I think I've got to the point of frustration now where I'm going to stop posting on this thread. Been nice talking to you though Farrier.
 
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Can I just add that I really resent the implication, much repeated, that none of the barefoot trimmers are qualified professionals?

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What qualifications do they undertake???
 
i have one shod as after trying for a year it is obvious he can not go without shoes and i have one barefoot, shes got lovely little feet and is fine without. i use a really fab farrier and am really happy with their feet
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farrier - whats quite amusing is you have ingored all the posts that have infact addressed your specific questions

I certainly have not bashed you, neither have several of the posters who use trimmers. Perhaps as we are open minded we dont feel the need to bash you - we are looking for what is best for our horses whether that is a farrier or a trimmer if our horses are well trimmed with balanced feet surely you as an abassador for good feet should be pleased and support the trimmers that are excellent. I dont know if you are in fact any good as a farrier because ive never seen you shoe - you could be excellent and someone people would be happy to have pasture trim their horses BUT likewise you could also be poor and not able to walk the walk - from that you must realise that people are commenting on their personal experiences with farriers; and not take it so personally.

As I said previously if you look at this site over a long period of time there are loads of complaints about crap farriers, farriers who dont trim properly, dont turn up on time, put wrong size shoes on feet etc that doesnt mean all farriers are bad but it does mean that on the whole there is an issue that needs addressing, is it any wonder people start to look at alternatives? and isnt that a good thing that people are taking more responsibility into the state of their horses whole body and trying to make sure that horses are healthy and balanced instead of just using someone for the sake of it. People I know who have used trimmers have done so after research and careful thought - why thats so bad is very strange to me.

What would be very useful to your debate would be if you can pop some pictures up of horses you have pasture trimmed - hoof shape and sole of hoof etc and then a few owners with barefoot trimmed horses could pop their pictures up and we could assess and compare the differences?
 
For the sake of clarification could someone PLEASE list the qualifications gained by BF trimmers, the length of the training involved in GAINING these qualification plus the board under which they are granted and regulated.

I think it would be helpful if we knew these fact before going any further with this.
 
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