I wouldnt get into this tin either!!! (PAT P:)

[Goldenstar]

Your focusing on the wrong thing, why focus on the black dot on a clean sheet.

This is why I rarely get drawn into the 'whatabout' arguements.

I'm not really interested in Parelli and his works, but I am in Natural Horsemanship, and in fairness to Parelli he has raised the profile of NH.

As I've said these arguments go on and on, I'm not really arsed about other folk, but, my horses don't have any of the 'behavioural problems' I constantly read about on here, so, I'm happy with that.

Because the black dot moment is the moment when the horse in your care gets loose breaks a leg or whatever you can't handle horses like that unless they are your own and you are extremely relaxed about what happens to them.
The man is supposed to be a professional not a ponyclubber.
And yes he's raised the profile of NH alright.

 

[Pale Rider]

Talking broken biscuits Janet, I can be where I like.

 

[Goldenstar]

Your focusing on the wrong thing, why focus on the black dot on a clean sheet.

This is why I rarely get drawn into the 'whatabout' arguements.

I'm not really interested in Parelli and his works, but I am in Natural Horsemanship, and in fairness to Parelli he has raised the profile of NH.

As I've said these arguments go on and on, I'm not really arsed about other folk, but, my horses don't have any of the 'behavioural problems' I constantly read about on here, so, I'm happy with that.

The black dot is moment when the horse in your care gets loose and potentially damages it's self .
The man is supposed to be a professional not a pony clubber.
NH , traditional or whatever you do or what you call what you do , you focus on the horse.

 

[Ellen Durow]

I was just about to say, seen much worse than that in "traditional" horsemanship.

Just because other countries don't have the same plush trailers with ramps that we have, we mustn't judge.

The fact that it is done doesn't make it right. My grandfather was a "traditional horseman" but would not have stood for any sort of bullying, including that demonstrated in the clip.

And why shouldn't we judge? If everyone had taken the attitude that "We mustn't judge" there would be no equine welfare organisations and no equine welfare legislation.

 

[Pale Rider]

The black dot is moment when the horse in your care gets loose and potentially damages it's self .
The man is supposed to be a professional not a pony clubber.
NH , traditional or whatever you do or what you call what you do , you focus on the horse.

Focus on the horse is exactly what I am trying to say you should do. The trouble is that too many focus on anything but!!

 

[Ibblebibble]

The horse is upping the anti at some stage and becoming very excited, Parelli then uses more energy himself to match the horse's level.

The stick is being wafted as you put it, to form a barrier in front of the head but in two ways, a physical barrier and an energy barrier, but not directed at the horse. The horse will be reluctant to barge through the dual barrier.

The temptation is when horses display this sort of escalating energy to shut them down. No one likes it when they rear and start waving their legs about. By keeping on shutting them down, the horse never really comes to terms with the situation, whatever it is, if you match the energy, or the tantrum or whatever, they quickly stop this sort of behaviour and concentrate on what you want them to do.

ok i can understand the stick being a barrier, not how i would choose to do it but that's life, what i can't get my head around is how upping the energy to match the horses is beneficial my understanding has always been to lower your energy to reduce the tension, turn the situation into calm acceptance rather than a high energy fight.
i don't see calming a horse as shutting them down, i see it as showing them that the situation is under control, nothing to panic about, nothing to get excited about, the horse is still listening rather than blocking me out, and although it might not be an instant result we always achieve what i wanted. the next time we come to do the same thing there might be a bit of a backing off but then it's like the horse says, 'oh that thing, yep can do that' and over the tarp we go or whatever it is we're doing, no fighting no 'energy' required.

 

[Pale Rider]

What you say Ibblebibble makes perfect sense, if you are thinking of how people react or may react in situations. Horses aren't people though. Very often all the horse wants to do is get out of there and the energy level shoots sky high. If you don't go with it the horse just doesn't know your there, for want of a better expression.
Obviously, if the horse maintains lower energy levels where, in human terms, it's reasonable, then you match that.

I'm very critical of how lots of NH trainers work, and Parelli really let's himself down a lot, as people have justifiably pointed out. Clinton Anderson, is someone else I find difficult, he uses massive amounts of high energy when it's not required. This makes him look rough and crude.

I like to watch Steve Halfpenny, and Buck of course. They demonstrate these techniques much better.

The key to remember though is that you are aiming to get results using the lowest of energy and the slightest of pressure, so these high energy moments decline and disappear as the training progresses, it progresses quickly too, as the horse comes to be confident in your handling as it understands energy and pressure anyway so you are working in a common medium.

Constantly trying to enforce calmness, may help the person, but the horse is not calm and confidend inside. That's where the explosion comes somewhere down the line. The back flip is a classic response in an unconfident horse not allowed to work through things at a high energy level.

 

[Tinypony]

That's an old video isn't it? Maybe he learnt a lesson about attention from that experience and is more careful now? Maybe not, but we all make mistakes...

 

[TrasaM]

I've never heard Chris Cox being referred to on here. One of his programs shows him dealing with a very large WB dressage horse who had developed a habit of rearing up. It was really interesting seeing him deal with it when it got stroppy. He kept the horse moving and by the end the horse just stood there shivering. He said it was releasing tension. It did seem that the horse in this case had to get over whatever his issue was and once he'd made him work through it he submitted. He got the horse working calmly by the end of the series..3/5 days I think. Patience and persistence and no gimmicks. (The horse was very over at the knees so it stuck I my mind as it looked so odd when it was moving.)

Anyhow, added that because of the debate about whether it's better to push through fears or not. Guess there's a time and place or both approaches and depending on the horses attitude.

 

[Tinypony]

Personally, if a horse stood shivering as a result of what was being done to it I'd be thinking that the handler had pushed it too far too soon and was in danger of flooding it. Similarly, if a horse went un-naturally quiet and still (something some seem to mis-read as acceptance).

 

[PandorasJar]

Similarly, if a horse went un-naturally quiet and still (something some seem to mis-read as acceptance).

We had quiet and still misread for a different reason by someone who worked for a local vet clinic.

Horse came in very wound up, sweating, eye rolling, stamping. Instantly called vet. Horse then did a 180, completely calmed and wasn't there at all. Ex vet on site said it wasn't worth getting vet out she was fine. It was exactly the point we called again to say something was very very wrong and she needed to be seen asap. She was very ill.

Anything out of character and I'd be asking why, overly calm can be just as bad as hyped up. Whether it's waiting to explode, concealing pain, giving up etc