Icing/hosing for laminitis

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

Is this still done? I had the vet up yesterday but she didn't mention it and I forgot to ask. Pony with raised pulses, much worse early afternoon (despite being off grass completely and on box rest with soaked hay for 2 days, so defo not related to sun on the grass).

Her whole legs feel hot and swollen in the early afternoon, but cool and fine in the mornings, I couldn't even detect a pulse this morning. Could/should I be icing or hosing her legs/feet to bring down the heat/swelling?

(Ps pony is obvs already on bute)

 

[magicmoments]

Is this still done? I had the vet up yesterday but she didn't mention it and I forgot to ask. Pony with raised pulses, much worse early afternoon (despite being off grass completely and on box rest with soaked hay for 2 days, so defo not related to sun on the grass).

Her whole legs feel hot and swollen in the early afternoon, but cool and fine in the mornings, I couldn't even detect a pulse this morning. Could/should I be icing or hosing her legs/feet to bring down the heat/swelling?

(Ps pony is obvs already on bute)

Now I'm quite happy to stand corrected, as it is some years ago I had a lami pony, and advice changes. I think the cold housing helps the pain, but I hot rubbed the feet, as it helps dilate the blood vessels so helps the circulation in the feet, which is diminished with lami.

 

[meleeka]

current advice is not to hose feet as it hinders blood flow.

 

[Shilasdair]

I don't think anyone knows the 'right' answer. In EMS cases there is some suggestion that frosty mornings trigger laminitic episodes due to constriction of blood vessels.
In all areas of laminitis though, the scientific evidence supporting vet advice seems to be somewhat lacking (or worse, contradictory).

 

[Melandmary]

My vet advised me to stand my lami ponio in cold buckets of water/ cold hose when she came down with it in April. He said gypsies used to tether their horses in the river when they were suffering with it. Don't know how true this is but anyway Mel wouldn't keep her feet in the water tubs and she recovered without it

 

[Casey76]

From ECIR, cold hosing/ice baths do nothing for metabolic-related laminitis..

If it’s concussion/mechanical, or septic/toxaemia related, yes, but not metabolic (”carb overload” or any pony with IR/EMS or PPID)

 

[Follysmum]

As a kid I remember being told it was good for them to stand in a running river

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

Thanks for all the advice (so often it seems you can't do right for doing wrong, hey?!) I'll leave her be for the moment and maybe call the vet if it blows up again this arvo ??

 

[SpotsandBays]

My vet advised me to stand my lami ponio in cold buckets of water/ cold hose when she came down with it in April. He said gypsies used to tether their horses in the river when they were suffering with it. Don't know how true this is but anyway Mel wouldn't keep her feet in the water tubs and she recovered without it

I can’t remember who told me a similar but more gruesome version, but I remember hearing it as a kid! Apparently for laminitis some people used to stand horses in a river, and make a small nic in their neck to bleed...?!?

 

[Shilasdair]

I can’t remember who told me a similar but more gruesome version, but I remember hearing it as a kid! Apparently for laminitis some people used to stand horses in a river, and make a small nic in their neck to bleed...?!?

I imagine that blood-letting might be useful for reducing blood pressure/fluid build up. I think we need to be open minded about such things rather than immediately jumping to the conclusion that every generation preceding us was cruel and ignorant.

 

[SpotsandBays]

I imagine that blood-letting might be useful for reducing blood pressure/fluid build up. I think we need to be open minded about such things rather than immediately jumping to the conclusion that every generation preceding us was cruel and ignorant.

I mean I didn’t say that what they were doing was cruel or ignorant...if it worked for them then that’s great! However you wouldn’t catch people doing it now, and I guess there is probably a reason for that.

 

[Shilasdair]

I mean I didn’t say that what they were doing was cruel or ignorant...if it worked for them then that’s great! However you wouldn’t catch people doing it now, and I guess there is probably a reason for that.

I know you didn't state that - but it's a common assumption.
And as for 'you wouldn't catch people doing it now' - even the NHS uses blood letting when appropriate, along with medicinal leeches.

 

[SpotsandBays]

I know you didn't state that - but it's a common assumption.
And as for 'you wouldn't catch people doing it now' - even the NHS uses blood letting when appropriate, along with medicinal leeches.

Yes but that’s people who trained in the medical field, with the correct tools for doing so! If my vet said “we need to let blood with leeches or a nic in the neck” then I’d say fine! (Although I’ve never had a vet suggest that for lami).
However, I myself wouldn’t just take a stroll to a nearby river with a pocket knife and do it myself, and I don’t imagine that people would anymore.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Is this still done? I had the vet up yesterday but she didn't mention it and I forgot to ask. Pony with raised pulses, much worse early afternoon (despite being off grass completely and on box rest with soaked hay for 2 days, so defo not related to sun on the grass).

Her whole legs feel hot and swollen in the early afternoon, but cool and fine in the mornings, I couldn't even detect a pulse this morning. Could/should I be icing or hosing her legs/feet to bring down the heat/swelling?

(Ps pony is obvs already on bute)

I always cold hose with inflammation with laminitis to reduce damage and pain. I also have mine on turmeric too which helps

 

[Shilasdair]

Yes but that’s people who trained in the medical field, with the correct tools for doing so! If my vet said “we need to let blood with leeches or a nic in the neck” then I’d say fine! (Although I’ve never had a vet suggest that for lami).
However, I myself wouldn’t just take a stroll to a nearby river with a pocket knife and do it myself, and I don’t imagine that people would anymore.

I've practised* both self-bloodletting, and the use of leeches on my legs before.

* unintentionally

 

[SpotsandBays]

I've practised* both self-bloodletting, and the use of leeches on my legs before.

* unintentionally

Ew! I can’t stand leeches! I’d be buggered if I ever needed to have them!

 

[Shilasdair]

Ew! I can’t stand leeches! I’d be buggered if I ever needed to have them!

It wasn't my most enjoyable experience, I agree.

OP - have you looked at the Laminitis site? It's got lots of useful information. I diligently soaked hay for my laminitis stricken EMS horse - and she diligently got worse and worse, until I realised that the hay was the issue, and swapped her to other low sugar forage (Timothy haylage, meadow haylage, Hi Fi molasses free etc.).
Good luck, anyway.

 

[Regandal]

Ew! I can’t stand leeches! I’d be buggered if I ever needed to have them!

Haven’t used leeches but I have put maggots on grotty wounds. Very efficient little beasties. I think it’s now called larvae therapy or biosurgery.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

It wasn't my most enjoyable experience, I agree.

OP - have you looked at the Laminitis site? It's got lots of useful information. I diligently soaked hay for my laminitis stricken EMS horse - and she diligently got worse and worse, until I realised that the hay was the issue, and swapped her to other low sugar forage (Timothy haylage, meadow haylage, Hi Fi molasses free etc.).
Good luck, anyway.

Thank you, I am starting to wonder about the hay. Pony has been on almost no grass for several weeks (yes, I know it's always more than we think it is! But honestly, they've been on a small track of mostly mud). Problems did coincide with when I opened a new big bale of hay. But I've been using the same supplier for 2 years no problems before, and this bale was delivered along with 2 others that seemingly caused no problems. I think the tiny bit of very sugary grass must be the prime suspect ?‍

The Timothy haylage is just so expensive ?

 

[SpotsandBays]

Haven’t used leeches but I have put maggots on grotty wounds. Very efficient little beasties. I think it’s now called larvae therapy or biosurgery.

Oh god I can’t decide what’s worse! I think I’d pick leeches over maggots ??

 

[PurBee]

I switched to a different hay supplier - twice - and my horses got footy 24hrs later, so i suspected the hay. In both instances, it was a heavy 60%+ ryegrass hay.
So is it the high fructans/high sugar in that species of hay that causes bowel havoc and then induces mild footiness to full-blown lami in some cases? The science is mixed....but not altogether conclusive...yet.
However, on late cut fermented ryegrass haylage - they do fine.

Whenever these footiness episodes happened due to a sudden food change , my horses have a soggy/muddy/clay area about 6 inches deep, at the side of their dry-lot. Its where i let their water trough overflow and it runs down onto the muddy area. They ALWAYS stand in that cold soggy deep mud whenever they are footy.
Which makes sense as lami is inflammation of the blood vessels ,within the hoof capsule and due to the constrictive design of the hoof wall not allowing the hoof to inflame like soft tissue inflammation, its painful and hot for them. Hence the raised pulse. (no matter the original cause of the lami)
So the cold, soggy mud ‘baths’ they give their hooves, evidently relieves the pressure within the hoof capsule, and relieves pain, and constricts the blood vessels which ultimately would help the laminae remain better attached, than allowing the heat to build-up and blood vessels to lose their integrity....which is why we often have abscesses occur after lami episodes, due to damaged/burst cells and the toxic overspill pooling into the area.

So personally, im in favour of cooling off the feet if possible.

I also read in horse care books that often horses were tied up in a stream with a bag of hay when going through lami episodes. As my horses did that of their own free will, and its very effective within 24hrs IF the offending cause has been removed , it suggests to me that this method is not without merit or medical sense.

 

[Casey76]

I switched to a different hay supplier - twice - and my horses got footy 24hrs later, so i suspected the hay. In both instances, it was a heavy 60%+ ryegrass hay.
So is it the high fructans/high sugar in that species of hay that causes bowel havoc and then induces mild footiness to full-blown lami in some cases? The science is mixed....but not altogether conclusive...yet.
However, on late cut fermented ryegrass haylage - they do fine.

Whenever these footiness episodes happened due to a sudden food change , my horses have a soggy/muddy/clay area about 6 inches deep, at the side of their dry-lot. Its where i let their water trough overflow and it runs down onto the muddy area. They ALWAYS stand in that cold soggy deep mud whenever they are footy.
Which makes sense as lami is inflammation of the blood vessels ,within the hoof capsule and due to the constrictive design of the hoof wall not allowing the hoof to inflame like soft tissue inflammation, its painful and hot for them. Hence the raised pulse. (no matter the original cause of the lami)
So the cold, soggy mud ‘baths’ they give their hooves, evidently relieves the pressure within the hoof capsule, and relieves pain, and constricts the blood vessels which ultimately would help the laminae remain better attached, than allowing the heat to build-up and blood vessels to lose their integrity....which is why we often have abscesses occur after lami episodes, due to damaged/burst cells and the toxic overspill pooling into the area.

So personally, im in favour of cooling off the feet if possible.

I also read in horse care books that often horses were tied up in a stream with a bag of hay when going through lami episodes. As my horses did that of their own free will, and its very effective within 24hrs IF the offending cause has been removed , it suggests to me that this method is not without merit or medical sense.

It may make sense superficially, however you do not want blood vessel constriction, you actually want more blood flow to the area to carry toxins away, which is one of the reasons why aspirin is often given (as a blood thinner).

Also when you have forced constriction through cold, once you remove the cold you have rebound dilatation of the blood vessels, which can cause crippling pain due to sudden increased volume in the foot. Think about how your fingertips feel when they warm up after been frozen in winter...

 

[PurBee]

It may make sense superficially, however you do not want blood vessel constriction, you actually want more blood flow to the area to carry toxins away, which is one of the reasons why aspirin is often given (as a blood thinner).

Also when you have forced constriction through cold, once you remove the cold you have rebound dilatation of the blood vessels, which can cause crippling pain due to sudden increased volume in the foot. Think about how your fingertips feel when they warm up after been frozen in winter...

I can see your point and agree that using freezing cold, literally using ice, would cause a marked decrease in circulation and the toxins not moving much.

The fine line is with temperature as doing nothing to reduce the inflammation using cooling means the blood vessels are prone to being damaged further due to the immune system inflammatory signalling, and therefore possible laminae degeneration/sinking, due to ever-increasing heat.

The temp of the mud my horses park into would be around 8 degrees...as that’s the average temp most of the year. Thats a vast difference from feet being plunged into ice buckets, which i think some consider a worthy lami-reducing method.

It depends on the degree of lami symptoms too. Some horses are mildly footy due to mild inflammation while others are crippled barely able to walk due to insane inflammation which i believe will only cause further damage if some cooling isnt achieved.
Soft tissue and ligament injuries present with insane heat and cooling packs/hosing are recommeded to reduce inflammation to reduce the severity of damaged cells, thus speedier recovery.
Circulation slows down but doesnt halt completely with cooling methods, providing those cooling methods are senstiviely applied and the rebound effect you speak of isnt such an issue. Yet sure, if we use ice buckets on a severe lami case for an hour and then have the horse on a deep bed, the temperature difference will cause immense discomfort and more cellular disruption.

Each lami case has to be assessed on an individual basis, as to know what to implement, when and how.

 

[Mule]

I imagine that blood-letting might be useful for reducing blood pressure/fluid build up. I think we need to be open minded about such things rather than immediately jumping to the conclusion that every generation preceding us was cruel and ignorant.

I'd be morbidly fascinated if a doctor suggested blood letting. I'd enthusiastically get my camera phone out

 

[millikins]

I understood the reason for not cold hosing was that it cools the outside of the hoof causing it to contract leaving the internal structures still inflamed so potentially creating more pain. But they may voluntarily seek running water as they can move in and out as they wish.
As for hay, my laminitic became footy at times on hay, 1) I think it was rye grass and 2) she was greedy, she would just stand and eat; the others would eat, have a squabble, move off, come back etc.

 

[NOISYGIRL2]

I think it depends at what stage its at. I don't think its recommended now and can be very painful if done at the wrong time.

 

[millikins]

I think it depends at what stage its at. I don't think its recommended now and can be very painful if done at the wrong time.

Which would make sense of standing in the river if they have the freedom to choose the correct timing.

 

[Shilasdair]

Which would make sense of standing in the river if they have the freedom to choose the correct timing.

You are all making the crazy assumption that horses know/do what is best for them.

In many years of observations, I feel this is inaccurate.

For example - if they knew what was good for their health, they wouldn't be stuffing themselves on grass/hay in the first place.

 

[millikins]

You are all making the crazy assumption that horses know/do what is best for them.

In many years of observations, I feel this is inaccurate.

For example - if they knew what was good for their health, they wouldn't be stuffing themselves on grass/hay in the first place.

No, your example has loo long a time lapse, like me telling my dog if she eats too many hoof trimmings she'll be sick. Horses know what makes them comfortable in the here and now, shade when it's hot, soft ground over stones if their feet hurt etc.

 

[Casey76]

I'd be morbidly fascinated if a doctor suggested blood letting. I'd enthusiastically get my camera phone out

it’s all done very clinically, no big buckets of blood, just a catheter, tube and bag, exactly as how it looks when humans donate

Phlebotomy is a recognised treatment, and is the only current treatment for true iron-overload in horses