I'd love your views on troublesome GSD!

[Kellys Heroes]

I'd love your opinions on my little GSD...I'm sorry I know this will be long!!

Background: we lost our beloved GSD bitch in October - she was dog-aggressive after being attacked at the age of 2, but she was so obedient that it was never a problem we could always break her focus and get her back to our side within a second (she was, in fact, the demonstration dog at the GSD club when my dad trained )

We rescued our new girl, skinny and nervous at the age of 12 months from our late girls breeders (they rescued her). She'd been locked in a back yard, fed occasionally when they remembered, beaten and kicked. The local dog warden paid for her to be chipped and spayed as she said she could see her having pups at 6 months old to any passing dog if not.
She'd never seen any other dog breed except GSDs from what we know, she wolfed her food at first until she realised that she WAS getting another meal and she became so close to our Golden Retriever over the course of a few months. She wouldn't go near my dad at first and if we stood up quickly, or gestured with our hands, she'd run.

Now, she is far better, she's not got a bad bone in her body in the house. She's had one accident in the whole 6 months we've had her, she plays, she quietens down, she doesn't chew, winge or pester, she'll let us take toys off her and food out of her mouth, she's spoilt but she has boundaries and is given a strict routine if you see what I mean.

However...we have a problem with other dogs. She was very insecure with people at first, but we have worked and worked and worked on this and she is far better unless people are running, frighten her etc.
Roxy walks lovely on the lead, to heel, will "watch", "stand", "sit", "stay", "turn", "back" etc on the lead fine. Her recall isn't brilliant so for the moment she is on a long lead which we do our homework on she's very insecure on her own, so we're working on that at the moment too going for lots of solo walks without our Goldie.

If Roxy spots another dog...her hackles go up and she goes into a frenzy barking and growling and spinning round. Her commands go out of the window - we've tried treats, we've even tried taking her beloved bubbles but nothing breaks her focus. If we start to say NO sharply to her, she drops to the floor as though we're going to batter her! (and I hate her doing that!)

So my question is this - how do we approach tackling this problem? I obviously won't smack her.
I can see pros and cons to each approach - dragging her away will remove the problem but perhaps teach her that dogs are bad and we MUST go away?
Treating her - we can't get her focus enough to eat a treat, that goes for telling her to sit and wait, its not going to happen while a dogs there.
Raising our voices causes her to panic and its giving her negative attention and I guess supporting her theory that dogs = bad.
At the moment I'm just trying to carry on walking, saying no, no, no.

We started at a dog club but there was a number of reactive dogs there which didn't help an awful lot - she did make friends with a labrador there and I honestly think the main problem is socialisation, but not many people want to take their dog to meet an aggressive looking German Shepherd!! she is the same with the GSDs at hydrotherapy too, they will play for hours.

Any views or opinions will be gratefully received as we just aren't sure which road to take!!
K x


Here's a thank you picture in advance!!

(they do have seperate beds......!!)

 

[CAYLA]

To much timer to think and react and focus is generally why you see such a heightened response. Her reaction sounds like fear and lack of confidence to deal with what is meeting her head on and by displaying this behaviour she is keeping dogs at bay, her tactic will no doubt work.
I would highly recommend you take her ability to react "out of the scenario" because as prepeared or as calm as you try to be all your energies are going into trying to calm a dog that is shutting off to nay such communication.

The answer would be to take away her ability to react and also take away with you having to deal with it whilst she is in such a state.
You then need a way to move past the figure/dog in a more fast paced manor.
A BIKE. I would get a bike attatchment and firstly get used to using it with her in tow, once you have I would then flood her with a new technique of whizzing by dogs with her jogging along side a bike. This way you can relax and concentrate on peddling and her reacting time has bypassed her before she had time to react. You can also drain alot of pre meeting dogs enery off her.
Once you can sucessfully get past dogs at high speed then begin to slow the pace down and cycle by slower and slower until you can eventually get off the bike and walk her (even if she is on the opposite side of the bike) being sheilded by it in a way, and you are pushing it. Then take the bike away.

 

[Kellys Heroes]

Lol Cayla have you ever seen me on a bike!?! I'm dangerous by myself, let alone with Roxy in tow lol - I'd be a little worried about her going under the wheels when she's flinging herself about.
Will running have the same effect? If we jog past dogs...?
Once her training is more solid, we can start socialising I'm just worried that the longer we leave tackling the problem, the harder it will be to break.
We'll never give up on her and if this is just her, then we'll deal with it like we did our last dog but it would be nice to have 2 friendly dogs to walk!
K x

 

[CAYLA]

Im **** on a bike too An attachment should balance you better though.
Jogging would be the next best thing but this does not take your ability to react away (which in the short term would help immensley), where as the bike does because your are busy steering
Try jogging first, but it if does not work, then master the bike, for now it's needs to be fast paced (past the target). Once the fast paced passing is mastered you can slow down till you are eventually walking.

 

[ladyt25]

I had this exact same problem with my rescue - she was 9 mths when i got her, is about 13mths now. She was/is reactive to dogs on the lead and, although she is a pig with food she couldn't care less about it when she's focused on another dog.

I took her to training for 10 weeks and it did help to some degree although any new dog that came to the groups she'd go mad at. Her reasons for doing it are fear (she's worse with bigger dogs) and, being on the lead her option to run is taken away. Actually off lead she is not a problem at all and we generally take her off lead when we walk so there's no problem. She does sometimes run up to other dogs and bark but, in the main she has learnt to say "hello" properly.

My main problem with her is meeting people out on walks as she's scared of them - if they have a dogs she's not bothered as the dog takes her focus but, if no dog she will bark at them if she feels threatened. I am trying the "no" and "leave it" commands and also praising her for good behaviour. It is really hard though as i think when they have this ingrained issue it's hard to break. Also, it's not always possible to get in there first, ie if I do see a dog/person with mine before she does I can get her focus with food and make her sit, "watch me" and give her treats. If she spots something before me though I have very little chance! I don't want to spend my whole walk either being on the 'lookout' as I am concerned she will pick up on that and it'll just make her worse.

Round where I am there are a lot of dogs and i do have to walk her on the lead as a built up area - where possible, I will asl the other dog owners if she can say "hello" to their dog and I try and make her approach as calmly as possible (otherwise she just scares the other dog normally with her noise!!), i let her say hello briefly, praise her and continue our walk. I think this has helped to be honest but it's getting the timing right - a quick couple of seconds greeting then off we go.

Obviously this isn't possible with every dog though. With her it has worked and she now knows some dogs locally and knows they are not scary - in fact one bigger dog she is quite ecstatic to see so it's nice that she can change and i hope with time and patience it'll come.

 

[lexiedhb]

Do what you know- with treating/focus etc but you have to keep the distancefrom the other dog one which she can handle- then VERY gradually reduce it. Could take a while. Running full speed past also helps with mine.

 

[Kellys Heroes]

Update - running isn't going to work - tried it tonight on our run and the whole run we'd been running/walking/running/walking so nothing out of the ordinary.

Spotted a dog before she did and started to run - she spotted the dog, started to fling herself around, tripped me up twice and hurt herself in the process. It borders on dangerous with how much she flings herself around.
I turned to say NO and she dropped to the floor with her ears back and tail between her legs as though I'd been battering her I've never ever even tapped this dog, cause I know her background and don't know how she'd react.
This is a new one on me.

Lexie - we tried treating when we first got her, we tried chicken, sausages, belly pork..! And we started trying to get her focus by literally almost pushing treats into her mouth first of all and that worked for the first week, but after that she just started dropping them not even trying to chew them. Just far too interested in the dogs.

Feel quite disheartened tonight - on the plus side, she was foot perfect apart from that, no barking at people and heel was brilliant, even running. I'm going to take her to hydrotherapy with the other dog next week and let her frolic with his GSDs at his house and see how she goes with them. His dogs are solid.
K x

 

[CAYLA]

I would maybe think of getting someone out to help you (trainer/behaviourist) to cast another/experienced eye over the issues.
Have you tried facing her the opposite way also, as in she spots dog and you (about turn with her) as you would in training class, until said dog has passed, then about turn her again, so she is facing the way she was as it passes, to lessen her focus.

Has she ever socialised with dogs off lead, as in lots of them or been to training class?

 

[Kellys Heroes]

I would maybe think of getting someone out to help you (trainer/behaviourist) to cast another/experienced eye over the issues.
Have you tried facing her the opposite way also, as in she spots dog and you (about turn with her) as you would in training class, until said dog has passed, then about turn her again, so she is facing the way she was as it passes, to lessen her focus.

Has she ever socialised with dogs off lead, as in lots of them or been to training class?

I have tried this yeah, she walks backwards on two legs barking eventually it does work we can get her focus back eventually, but is it a negative thing that we're walking AWAY from the dog?...we've just read an interesting method actually which suggests walking/driving to a large open field and putting a huge distance between us and another dog and walk WITH them rather than towards them, so that might be worth a shot too.

You've hit the nail on the head there Cayla, I meant to put in my original post - as far as we know, before we got her, she'd never been socialised. Until the breeders rescued her she'd never seen another dog AFAIK, and she'd certainly not seen any other breeds than GSDs.
She has socialised with the hydro man's GSDs - she loves them, she has a boyfriend there called Ant!
It's definitely a socialisation issue I think, to me, it seems like she doesn't know HOW to react to dogs, how to read them? We're a bit worried about taking her to training class where there will be a lot of reactive dogs such as the one we tried at the start. There is another club we're interested in trying, but I'd personally like her to be more confident in herself before we face her with that. Whether I'm right in that or not, I don't know??
K x

 

[MurphysMinder]

I wouldn't say it is too much of a negative if you are walking away from the dog and get her to focus on you, it is a start! I think the "high noon" type scenario when you are walking towards another dog is always the worst for a reactive animal.
I have heard of cases where walking with other dogs rather than towards than has helped an over reactive dog so I agree its worth a try. Given her background you have made great progress so far, this sort of problem is always so difficult to sort because people (understandably) tend not to want to socialise their dogs with a gobby GSD , you may never get her perfect but given how well she has come on in other ways I am sure you will see an improvement in this behaviour with perseverance.

 

[Kellys Heroes]

Thanks MM.
We are indeed so proud of how well she's adapted here and how far she's come, she is such a sweetheart in all other ways. If we can't correct this, then so be it, we'll just have to accept it and as long as she is obedient enough that it's not a problem then that's fine.

We are just hoping however that while she's still young we can get to work on it now - I'm going to take her onto the football field over the next few days, work on some recall and if any dogs come on then we'll just walk round at a big distance until she calms down/the dog goes and get her to hydro next week to play with the GSDs there.
Fingers crossed we can get her more confident and let her learn how to interact with other dogs.
K x

 

[splashgirl45]

sorry nothing else to add but wanted to say how beautiful she is and wish you lots of luck with her

 

[lexiedhb]

It will work- the treat thing- read the book "control unleashed" (or you tube the Look At That LAT game) you just need to start with Much more distance between you and other dogs- MUCH easier said than done I know. I too have one who flings himself around hence why i could not attach him to a bike without serious risk of injury!! Clicker helps us to

 

[MinskiKaii]

We rehomed a 2 year old staffy cross in November with simlar problems. We had a behaviourist out to see her.

She was extremely fearful when we firts got her and threw herself on the floor shaking when we first got her. The bahaviourst said she has no social skills and gets frustraited when she can't communicate with other dogs.

She said we really need to meet other dogs in wide open areas. But althought we have lots of fields all the dog walkers stick to the tracks and narrow roads. So every time we meet them she is worse. So we take her over to the beach as often as possible. She is much better there. And a lot of the dogs once she ran about with them and met them she was definatly a lot less reactive in the open area if the beach.

 

[CAYLA]

The about turn just means that for now she does not associate every dog with the reaction she gives now and it also allows you to be a little more at ease in your handling as these are both things that once practiced can lead to you actually building up to being able to pass by a dog eventually. When she is as bad as you say then you will have to take it very very slowly.
For now see it as "stopping her focus and her reaction" if you can get her to calm a little more then allow her to see the dog coming past her as you face the opposite way with her instead of towards her and that would be a huge start.

 

[ladyt25]

You are definitely not alone in having a dog like this and it's so sad that they have been let to get like this when in the main it's just down to no socialisation at a young age.

Mine also does the on hindlegs stance but thankfully she's a little smaller tha your GSD!

I took mine to a 10 week course at a puppy class. I went at the beginning of the year and signed up. We had an 'assessment' and decided she would be best put in the first class with the youngest pups so she would feel less intimidated. Also the class numbers were only small (6 to 8) in a nice indoor arena. Mine was 9 mths old so a fair bit ahead of the others training wise but to be surrounded by unthreatening pups did help her I think - oh she barked at some and some still scared her a little with being rather OTT (mainly crazy labs! Lol) but once she's settled in the group she was fine and I would let her say "hello" on lead to the dogs but we also worked on getting the dogs to work closely to one another.

I do think the classes helped and we progressed to the next class up which meant amongst other things, different dogs and bigger ones! I think at the end of the 10 weeks she had improved although is not cured but I am not sure she never will be cured 100% but I know more how to handle her and to try and keep calm (some of it also is her trying to protect me too I believe).

What does yours actually do if she is allowed to greet dogs when on the lead? I think you need a behaviourist/dog trainer and probably need to set up a 'stooge dog' situation like you see on the Victoria Stilwell programmes where you walk past the 'stooge' several times, rewarding the good behaviour and eventually getting closer and closer to each other until they can say "hello" and then continue with the walk.

I would quite like to do similar with mine in some respects - As mine is reactive with people (without dogs) as well I took her to small market town that's quite busy so we could walk around and she could get used to lots of people coming towards her. This seemed to work quite well for her and I intend on taking her to some horse shows with me in the summer just to desensitise her to people, dogs and a lot going on.

Mine isn't as outwardly fearful as yours though and she does know the words "No" and "Bad" etc and does now understand "No" is said when she exhibits behaviour I don't want and "Good" is when she does something I am pleased with her for. It takes a good long time (especially if you're not with the dog all the time - I work 9 to 5) but little steps abnd repetition do get you there eventually!

 

[Kellys Heroes]

The brilliant thing at the moment is that I'm almost done at uni so soon I'll be home all the time and have far more time to devote to her.

We've gone back to basic manners at home too now.
ladyt we've only let her greet dogs who we know won't react (friends' GSDs) and after the initial reaction she's let off the lead and they play I truly believe that its down to lack of socialisation. Her reactions WERE at people too at first but we walked round town for days and now she only reacts if someone is sort of threatening ie, running, being very noisy etc.

We have recently met a guy out walking who has a white GSD who used to be very nasty - he's stopped the reaction by just standing there and letting the dog basically wear himself out barking at another dog until he can now stand and the dog doesn't react. He's said if he sees us out with her, he'll just come and talk to us, as his dog doesn't react at all now. (not many people want to come over to us!)

I will certainly be trying the "about" turn Cayla, I can understand your point so we'll start trying to reduce the initial reaction, then over weekend I'll take her out on the field and let her see dogs at a huge distance (knowing my luck nobody will walk their dogs there now! )

She is beautiful, splashgirl thank you very much
K x

 

[Winterbells]

What a beautiful dog.

I remember watching Ceasar dealing with this kind of issue and he explained that the natural response to a stressor (i.e. other dog) is to fight, freeze or flee. It sounds like the hackles up response is 'freeze' and his advice was, as others have said, to turn and walk the other way. It seems to make sense, in that when (your) dog is on her lead, she's not able to do what would come naturally - which could be to flee, and so her response is to panic, perhaps.

I imagine that if you turn and walk in the opposite direction and then observe the other dog from a safe distance, perhaps over time this distance can be reduced until your dog gains more confidence and begins to stop seeing other dogs as stressors.

Sounds like it could work in theory anyway and good luck!

 

[Dobiegirl]

I was reading the other night of a study of young Rotties in the USA who were biting people and other dogs. It transpired this was occuring between the 2 vaccinations and where the vets advice was not to mingle with other dogs until their dog was fully vaccinated. It so happened that this was also the time when socialisation was critical in the dogs development and missing out made these dogs fearful and reactive. It was decided to advise people to socialise their dog between the two vaccinations with dogs they knew had been vaccinated. The general concensus was more dogs were being pts through aggression problems than would ever succumb to disease.

Having had rescue Dobes who were not socialised with other dogs does make life harder but is rewarding when you end up with a well rounded dog.

Op I think you are doing an excellent job and just keep doing what you are doing.