idolising professionals

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Ibblebibble

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prompted by the louise pavitt thread but as i haven't seen footage this is in no way purely about her before anyone gets their knickers in a knot;)

The thread actually got me thinking about how 'professionals' are idolised by their supporters, good, bad or indifferent behaviour is accepted purely because of who they are, the 'they're a professional, i'd like to see you do what they do' retort is flung at anyone who dares question any professional riders attitude or riding.
Are they really saying that professional riders are always right, never have an off day, never make a mistake, are always justified in their actions!!

And as for saying someones opinion isn't valid because they are not a professional or haven't ridden the course is really quite funny as generally the person saying that hasn't ridden the course either so how do they know the professional was justified in their actions!!;)
should we question our top riders actions more often perhaps and stop putting them on pedalstals, they are only human after all;)
 
I'm with you on that on. Watching Burghley last year we found ourselves commenting a couple of time that people had taken the wrong line or gone in too fast etc. I made one of those comments on here when people were discussing a particular rider and got slated. Could I ride it myself? Never? But that doesn't mean that the professionals don't sometimes get it visibly wrong.

My OH can barely manage a rising trot but he knows what it ought to look like, he's a great critic if I can persuade him to come to the yard and will happily tell me if I'm doing it wrong. When we are watching Badminton on the tele he was even commenting that one rider got the jump wrong because she tried to do it in three strides rather than four. I was convinced that it would be a three stride jump but he was right, the people who rode it in four made it look much easier.
 
First of all I'd get over the term "professional" - there is no such thing as a "professional rider" because to be professional, you need to have years of academic training and be governed by a professional body. The phrase is much overused and your post shows the dangers of this. Therefore you are referring to people who are experienced and successful in their sport, and who are recognised as such. I don't think you can underestimate the experience gained from competing successfully and regularly on a national arena on a variety of horses.

I do think riders with a successful record can get far more out of a horse competitively than the average amateur. Its because of their years of varied experience - they will have the ability to react quickly to the way the horse is going and to different horses.

I'm also wary of the opinion of people who don't have such a record - its pretty easy to work out when they are criticising for the sake of it, or thinking they are more knowledgeable than they are. I don't find those sort of comments helpful myself and thats why I always look for a trainer with a successful competition record. I don't want someone advising me on how to do something when they have never done it themselves!

I'd look at the video if I were you, as it doesn't really correspond with the more inflammatory comments made.
 
There is one thing saying to your mates - oh so and so had a bit of a shocker there but stating it and writing it publicly on a forum?
Also it becomes like a shark feeding frenzy in the forums with everyone feeding off each other and becoming more frenzied as the thread goes on.

I know how hurtful it is when people make comments at local shows so why should it be any different for the top riders to have faceless/nameless people hiding behind forum names making hurtful statements that they would never dare say to them in real life?

No one ever knows the situation that is going on with a horse at the time. What the rider is feeling and what signals a horse is giving off. Sometimes you have to cope as best you can to think of the future and try and salvage something positive.

My final point is being someone who competes affiliated - its embarrassing that this forum is such a laughing stock sometimes by rude and totally thoughtless comments. I know professionals who read the forum and laugh about inane comments.

Its not hard to think before you write something. I certainly do not idolise pros but I am also not going to sit here write something stupid that could potentially affect someones career when I have no idea about all the details.
 
LEC said:
My final point is being someone who competes affiliated - its embarrassing that this forum is such a laughing stock sometimes by rude and totally thoughtless comments. I know professionals who read the forum and laugh about inane comments.
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Yes, thats true. But you are forgetting the sterling advice given on the other thread - that you should school a horse at home until its perfect, before venturing near a competition!

Added to that, sensitive, sharp horses are to be confused with backward thinking horses, along with those who are simply backing off a bit in a big arena, and as long as you sit quietly, the result doesn't matter! (never mind that by using the aids, you could get a better result, how you look is the most important thing!)

Um, don't think I'd be asking anyone like that to ride my horse for me! I've got one of those that goes better at competitions than at home, so I guess he'd be maybe in his teens by the time he'd be ready to go to a show on that reckoning!
 
Mithras said:
First of all I'd get over the term "professional" - there is no such thing as a "professional rider" because to be professional, you need to have years of academic training and be governed by a professional body.
are they not governed by bsja, BD etc?:confused:

The phrase is much overused and your post shows the dangers of this. Therefore you are referring to people who are experienced and successful in their sport, and who are recognised as such. I don't think you can underestimate the experience gained from competing successfully and regularly on a national arena on a variety of horses.

I do think riders with a successful record can get far more out of a horse competitively than the average amateur. Its because of their years of varied experience - they will have the ability to react quickly to the way the horse is going and to different horses.i don't disagree with this at all, i don't doubt the riders ability, they obviously have talent to get to where they are, what i was questioning was the blind acceptance of everything they do by their supporters

I'm also wary of the opinion of people who don't have such a record - its pretty easy to work out when they are criticising for the sake of it, or thinking they are more knowledgeable than they are. I don't find those sort of comments helpful myself and thats why I always look for a trainer with a successful competition record. I don't want someone advising me on how to do something when they have never done it themselves!
thats almost another thread by itself, can a trainer only be good if they've competed?;)

I'd look at the video if I were you, as it doesn't really correspond with the more inflammatory comments made.
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I may look at it later, i haven't because i don't want it to influence my thoughts on this thread:)
 
My favorite riders are Piggy French, Pippa Funnel, Mary King and WFP simply beacuse they are humble riders and do not make them selves out to be gods and godesses on the course.

As for training I love the fredricks they seem to be able to understand what the horse is thinking and find great ways of getting around problems.

They would happily admit when something goes wrong on the course that it wasnt the horse at fault it was my own fault I did A B C and if I had of corrected myself we would have cleared that fence ect ect and thats why I do look up to these riders.

I do not like the riders who out all the blame on the horse and would never dream of thinking for one minuite that perhaps it was their fault either they were to asking too much, rode the wrong line or simply shifted their weight to much.

I think its good as an amature rider to have a role model or more than 1 to look up to and admire to be like.

And I agree with others posts I too sit and when wathing Burghly or Badminton yell at the TV lol
 
In terms of not commenting unless you're at the same level of riding - I don't think that holds water. After all, I am not a concert pianist, but if I listen to one, I can hear if they hit a wrong note! Maybe some of the finer points / nuances may be lost on me, but if I studied classical music enough, I'm sure I'd get most of it - even if I still couldn't play. I think it's the same in horses. You don't have to be able to ride a piaffe / jump at Badminton yourself to be able to see the difference between good / bad.

But. While I think it is possible to see the faults, I do think everyone should think how they phrase things. All too often, I see people who claim that they just say it how it is, or that they're just to the point, or that it's just the way they are. No, if you don't take time to phrase things carefully, it's just rudeness, and lack of thought for others feelings. There are ways & ways to say things - you can say 'I think you/they could have ridden a better line to that fence, and I think as it was it made it very difficult for the horse to do his job' or you can say 'that was a rubbish piece of riding - a chimp could have done a better job, how cruel to expect the horse to jump from that position'. Not necessarily as well phrased as I'd like it to be - but I've had a night of no sleep! Point being, we can be deliberately or carelessly provocative and take no care of anyones feelings, or we can make our point and actually stand a chance of people listening to us. Once you start to get insulting, people stop listening! They focus on the tone rather than the words then.
 
Ibblebibble said:
I may look at it later, i haven't because i don't want it to influence my thoughts on this thread:)
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I looked at it, expecting to see something awful but was instead impressed by the riding.

OK, other requirements for a professional - (1) access is heavily restricted at entry level by the requirement of very high qualifications to all but the most high achieving (2) training at a nationally recognised institution for 4 or more years (3) nationally recognised qualfications followed by on the job training before access is permitted to the profession by the governing body (4) ongoing renewal of practise certificates and professional training (5) requirement of a certain standard of behaviour at all times with the sanction of removal of professional recognition

Horse professionals meet some of these requirements but not all. The term "professional" of course now has a much wider meaning, but as an actual old fashioned type of professional, working in one of the professions, I don't tend to idolise horse riders. I do however judge people on their experience and results and the way they present themselves and that also means I don't have much truck with people with less experience who talk nonsense.

If I saw someone who competed horses for a living regularly making mistakes, I would criticise them if necessary, but I think the competitive structure would sort that out pretty effectively anyway, without my input.
 
BSJA, BD etc etc don't have teeth and anyone flouting their rules and regulations does not really suffer serious detrimental punishment, particularly a top rider needed for international competition.

I totally agree that ' professional' is mis used in the horse world as it donates someone who rides full time and does it for a living whereas in normal occupation it denotes a certain standard of behaviour, affiliation to a recognised body who will deal with short comings, a certain amount of formal recognised training and learning and it also denotes integrity and moral compass. All things often missing in the horse world.

I personally don't idolise riders, I just enjoy their riding or not as the case may be. People deserving to be idolised are those of the nobel peace prize winner ilk or someone who saves lives.
 
I started a thread a couple of years ago now about the 'professionals', when riding a clear round at a competition took their hats off whilst still cantering round the ring to acknowledge the crowd. I felt it was setting a bad example to the young people of the riding world, but was kind of shouted down, because they are professionals, they know how to ride so no danger!
 
I always thought the term "proffesional" ment they earnt money from what they were doing (obviously prize money doesn't make a profit, but training horses, because people admire them).
Sometimes, i look at things, people say "nothing nice to say- don't say it"- i'm sorry but the world would be a very borring place without people saying stuff that isn't nicey-nicey.
I find the horse would very elitist (obviously) and i'm sure that if some people were given some of the opportunities other riders were given from the start, then you'd see who really was the best. Hell, if i was thrown horses to me from the age of 3, had trainers, rode everyday, able to travel to shows...
Not all top riders got given it on a plate, but i just think that sometimes we need to realise that there might be a reason that they are so good to start with apart from pure talent...
 
Yes, thats true. But you are forgetting the sterling advice given on the other thread - that you should school a horse at home until its perfect, before venturing near a competition!

Could not disagree more with the above. I believe youngsters mature quicker and learn faster when attending competitions from an early age as possible. Getting them used to the atmosphere and all the scary things that happen to horses at shows helps them grow and get used to the surroundings. If you were to school a youngster unitl it was "perfect" (again no horse will ever be perfect) it takes years.

I hate the thought of drilling young horses at home, take them to shows, let them see the world, let them learn themselves.
 
premiersporthorsesuk said:
Yes, thats true. But you are forgetting the sterling advice given on the other thread - that you should school a horse at home until its perfect, before venturing near a competition!

Could not disagree more with the above. I believe youngsters mature quicker and learn faster when attending competitions from an early age as possible. Getting them used to the atmosphere and all the scary things that happen to horses at shows helps them grow and get used to the surroundings. If you were to school a youngster unitl it was "perfect" (again no horse will ever be perfect) it takes years.

I hate the thought of drilling young horses at home, take them to shows, let them see the world, let them learn themselves.
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Agreed
 
How many radio shows and even whole stations are out there just for discussing footballers and how well such and such played on saturday. Why can't we discuss such things?
Joe bloggs down the pub might not be able to play like Ronaldo, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know when he's had a bad game
or made mistakes, and will no doubt be shouting this at the TV.

Just cos I couldn't ride round badminton doesn't mean I can't tell when Pippa Funnells having a
bad day or Oli's taken the wrong line.
 
Feathered said:
How many radio shows and even whole stations are out there just for discussing footballers and how well such and such played on saturday. Why can't we discuss such things?
Joe bloggs down the pub might not be able to play like Ronaldo, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know when he's had a bad game
or made mistakes, and will no doubt be shouting this at the TV.

Just cos I couldn't ride round badminton doesn't mean I can't tell when Pippa Funnells having a
bad day or Oli's taken the wrong line.
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Agree!
 
I think a difference there is that the footballer is gonna get paid no matter what ANother says about him on a forum whereas here reputations and livelihoods are at stake.

Huge damage can be done to someone and / or their business via the internet. If I was a prospective owner with a horse I wanted producing and read this why would I want LP to do it when there are zillions of other riders out there not criticised on here. If I don't know a person I could easily assume the posters are correct as I have nothing to dispute what they are saying.

Thats why unwarranted negativity will be stamped on here.
 
BBH said:
I think a difference there is that the footballer is gonna get paid no matter what ANother says about him on a forum whereas here reputations and livelihoods are at stake.

Huge damage can be done to someone and / or their business via the internet. If I was a prospective owner with a horse I wanted producing and read this why would I want LP to do it when there are zillions of other riders out there not criticised on here. If I don't know a person I could easily assume the posters are correct as I have nothing to dispute what they are saying.

Thats why unwarranted negativity will be stamped on here.
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Is HHo really that powerful?? surely anyone looking for a rider for their horse will go on more than comments on a forum? i would hope so:eek:

can you define unwarranted negativity? what makes it unwarranted when it is someones opinion?
really that's what my post boils down to, are we not allowed to have an opinion on a rider unless we are singing their praises purely because of their position ?
 
Ibblebibble said:
Is HHo really that powerful?? surely anyone looking for a rider for their horse will go on more than comments on a forum? i would hope so:eek:

can you define unwarranted negativity? what makes it unwarranted when it is someones opinion?
really that's what my post boils down to, are we not allowed to have an opinion on a rider unless we are singing their praises purely because of their position ?
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I was just giving an understanding as to why I think its different on here as opposed to a random football forum. If your livelihood depended to some extent on potential customers reading / seeing public feedback and opinion you would challenge anything thats not positive. People are entitled to their opinions but if they are negative they will of course be unwarranted by those being discussed. People can have opinions on anyone no matter who they are but you can't expect people not to challenge those views, especially if they are connected to the person being discussed.

As for H & H being powerful it is a public forum and anyone can read anything on here. As an example I do think it can effect livelihoods as more damage can be done by PM than anything posted publicly.

As an example there is an accredited trainer in the SE who has knowingly sold a horse with health problems to two unwitting buyers and as a result of one of these ladies efforts to warn others he has lost at least 4 sales, 2 backings and 3 lesson clients and goodness knows how much other business from all the people these subsequent people would have spoken to.

Not one of these ladies knew each others situation at all until the power of the H & H forum.
But nothings said in public, no slander, no libel, no names all done behind the scenes. So yes I think H & H can be powerful.
 
Ibblebibble said:
prompted by the louise pavitt thread but as i haven't seen footage this is in no way purely about her before anyone gets their knickers in a knot;)

The thread actually got me thinking about how 'professionals' are idolised by their supporters, good, bad or indifferent behaviour is accepted purely because of who they are, the 'they're a professional, i'd like to see you do what they do' retort is flung at anyone who dares question any professional riders attitude or riding.
Are they really saying that professional riders are always right, never have an off day, never make a mistake, are always justified in their actions!!

And as for saying someones opinion isn't valid because they are not a professional or haven't ridden the course is really quite funny as generally the person saying that hasn't ridden the course either so how do they know the professional was justified in their actions!!;)
should we question our top riders actions more often perhaps and stop putting them on pedalstals, they are only human after all;)
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True. I always ignore comments of 'let's see what you can do' I don't see it as relevant if it means doing stuff I don't agree with anyway. :D :p

I have felt defensive of others and professionals and tried to explain my understanding of their actions but NO MORE. lol I will defend my opinion and try and explain my reasons for believing stuff I do... if that's not good enough for someone, too bad so long as my horses are happy and healthy and improving. I now consider others insulting or undermining me as a sign of their problems and leave it there for them to deal with in their time.
 
I've not really read the thread, just had a quick skim. What I do think though is that it shouldn't matter whether you compete at GP level or grassroots you can still hold judgement on what you think of another riders ability.
First impressions are often the only impressions you will ever make of a person and the OP might have only seen LP ride on both these occasions however the image of LP she has is of a quite a hard, tough rider rather than a Marcus Ehning/Beezie Madden/Penelope Leprovost style rider who looks like they virtually aren't doing anything for their horses to go foot perfect around most courses.

However, I do think the term professional is taken a bit to literally, I think it stems from the fact that they can make a living off riding whereas people like ourselves can't afford to give up the day job to fund our hobbies and make a career out of it. However, I did watch the Derby meeting and a rider there Charlie Luyckx (I think) was referred to as an amateur because he runs a very successful business in London rather than solely relying on his riding income. So I dont think it truly is a case of us taking it the wrong way but the sport itself doesn't brand itself entirely well.

ETA: I think Kenneth Graham is a good example as he did have a pretty bad round in the masters challenge on Lenamore Donnetella and then went on to jump a SUPERB round in the speed derby. People were quick to judge him after the masters but he proved his critics wrong the following competition. Maybe LP will do the same at HOYS.
 
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Regarding Marcus Ehning/Beezie Madden/Penelope Leprovost - you never see their young horses! You only ever see them in GP/Nations Cups jumping 1.60m classes so you miss out on the years beforehand. El Thuder is 7 years old and just beginning to come into his peak so not comparable with the riders you have mentioned. The Eventers GP is a 1.30m class which is why you will see younger horses. Realistically El Thuder will not be doing 1.60m classes till about 10 years old having probably been abroad several times and having much more experience under his belt. I can not think of any 1.30m classes that are going to have the atmosphere of what they dealt with at RIHS.

BTW I think 90% of the riding on the forum is pretty bad from photos/video but would never dream of commenting on it and not sure why people feel that pro riders are fair game. I will always remember Ian Starks quote that you ruin many horses on the way to the top. Meaning that you learn something from every horse and that when you are starting out you make mistakes and learn from them.
 
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Feathered said:
How many radio shows and even whole stations are out there just for discussing footballers and how well such and such played on saturday. Why can't we discuss such things?
Joe bloggs down the pub might not be able to play like Ronaldo, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know when he's had a bad game
or made mistakes, and will no doubt be shouting this at the TV.

Just cos I couldn't ride round badminton doesn't mean I can't tell when Pippa Funnells having a
bad day or Oli's taken the wrong line.
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I'm really not a fan of the football pundit culture - I simply can't see the point in making a hobby out of watching a sport you never participate in. Some people let it rule their lives but have never played a competitive football match in their lives! Is this culture now creeping into other sports? Ugh.

As for professionalism, if a professional is defined by being paid for what one does, then everyone except those in the voluntary sector must be professionals, surely?
 
'Expert' and people who constantly dismiss common sense in favour of self proclaimed expert advice. It drives me mad, and I couldn't watch a horse poohing in fear just because the 'expert' has won a few prizes. Sad...

Sorry for broken post, am on my phone
 
There is a huge difference between saying 'so and so got a bad line/ stride'
To 'so and so beats her horses and is damaging them' which was being said in the LP thread, which imo is unjustified.
 
Get a grip everyone. Louise is a very good and effective rider. I have watched and competed with her for many years (ponies and horses) and can honestly say I have never seen her abuse a horse in the ring (unlike another lady rider who constantly jabs them in the mouth and leaves the ring with a sulky face when things haven't gone too well)! I am sure if Shirley thought her horses were being abused in any way she would have plenty to say and certainly would not allow it publicly. If anyone has a problem with this why don't they speak directly with Shirley - she can always be found where her horses are competing - and if you think you can do a better on a 'green' horse ask the Lights for a trial run as one of their jockeys (lol) most of you who sit in judgement a) would not know where to start let alone ride one of these youngsters and b) would not have the staying power to do what Louise and many of the other riders out there do day in and day out! If you want to talk about abuse I suggest you look into the darker side of showjumping with some of our so called professional riders - your hair would not only curl but fall out!
 
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