If he doesn't cope without shoes?

Emilieu

Emilieu

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What is the worst case scenario?
Deans is down another shoe and another chunk of hoof has gone with it. He is horribly lame again without it, even after I have wrapped it up as best I can in nappies, padding and duct tape. Vet and farrier cannot agree on solution but both agree the solution is NOT to remove shoes. I'm so scared to go against their opinion but i just can't see what else to do - their ideas are not working! So if i go against their advice (with a specialist on board to assist me) can anyone tell me what the worst that will happen is? Is it just that i will have to give in and put shoes back on or is there ANY chance that i will do irreversable damage to my beloved boy?

Thanks - head is all over the place.
 
It is obviously important to stick within the horse's comfort limit - i.e. don't take him galloping over rocks just after shoes are removed! But no, I've never heard of irreversible damage being done by removing shoes. Does the horse have very thin soles?

It sounds like you have some dietary issues that need resolving, though.
 
Sounds to me, that the last thing he needs is more shoes being nailed on!
My boy was like this there was hardly any good foot to nail too, so I had them off.
He was turned out in boots and pads daily and brought in at night on a deep shavings bed! If you do this until his feet recover you could then reshoe or stay bare as I have done!
 
TwoStroke said:
Does the horse have very thin soles?

It sounds like you have some dietary issues that need resolving, though.
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He DID have very thin soles. Since then i have changed his diet and i'm hoping this will have helped. CPT has suggested to me several times that i have him tested for IR and cushings, to be honest I am avoiding this as it would require the vet and and i'll have to have The Discussion with him all over again!
 
Emilieu said:
He DID have very thin soles. Since then i have changed his diet and i'm hoping this will have helped. CPT has suggested to me several times that i have him tested for IR and cushings, to be honest I am avoiding this as it would require the vet and and i'll have to have The Discussion with him all over again!
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Ah, well if the diet's all sorted then it's just a case now of growing in a new (and better) hoof :D.

I had the vet out to one of mine yesterday - it was a new vet, and she said I should have a set of shoes put on my TB. I just smiled and nodded - I find this easier with some vets :).
 
I would definitely go bare-foot. We took the shoes off our horses more than a year ago and we have not had any problems. We use boots when we hack out (gravel roads) - Cavallo and Renegades.
We trim according to the principles found in the Sweedish Hoof School and we make sure that the horses are not lacking vits and minerals. You can use a hoof-hardener to ease the transition. Take a look at The Sweedish Hoof School (warning: graphic videos) and you will never want to nail a shoe on again.
http://swedishhoofschool.com/
 
TwoStroke said:
Ah, well if the diet's all sorted then it's just a case now of growing in a new (and better) hoof :D.

I had the vet out to one of mine yesterday - it was a new vet, and she said I should have a set of shoes put on my TB. I just smiled and nodded - I find this easier with some vets :).
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'Just smile and nod' was the advice i gave my friend when she bought her first horse!

Pines this is my gut feeling re the nails as well.
 
My TB had soles you could flex with your fingers when her shoes came off. I made sure I reduced all the excess sugar out of her diet, invested in a good set of hoof boots and settled down for the long haul. My girl was fine on brushed tarmac/concrete, field and school but anything with stones took about 6 weeks before she could tolerate it. Both vet and Farrier said she would never cope without shoes. We are now in our 2nd year of nudey feet.

if you give him a break from shoes the worst that can happen is that a) you can't ride b) you spend some money and get some hoof boots and get on with it ( ooh that sounds so harsh but it isn't meant to be or c) you give him a break and then when the hooves have recovered re-shoe, but tbh if you have gone though this "pain and suffering" you might as well give the whole "sans shoe" thing a bash
 
Emilieu said:
He DID have very thin soles. Since then i have changed his diet and i'm hoping this will have helped. CPT has suggested to me several times that i have him tested for IR and cushings, to be honest I am avoiding this as it would require the vet and and i'll have to have The Discussion with him all over again!
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Get another vet?
 
Angua2 said:
My TB had soles you could flex with your fingers when her shoes came off. I made sure I reduced all the excess sugar out of her diet, invested in a good set of hoof boots and settled down for the long haul. My girl was fine on brushed tarmac/concrete, field and school but anything with stones took about 6 weeks before she could tolerate it. Both vet and Farrier said she would never cope without shoes. We are now in our 2nd year of nudey feet.

if you give him a break from shoes the worst that can happen is that a) you can't ride b) you spend some money and get some hoof boots and get on with it ( ooh that sounds so harsh but it isn't meant to be or c) you give him a break and then when the hooves have recovered re-shoe, but tbh if you have gone though this "pain and suffering" you might as well give the whole "sans shoe" thing a bash
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This is exactly what i needed to hear :)

a) no riding is no problem. I just ride for fun anyway and its not fun if he is not happy
b) was intending on getting the hoof boots the same day shoes come off
c) if he can manage bf there is no way i will put shoes back on him.

Clava - I am a genuine moron. I have no idea why I didn't consider that. Told you my head is all over the place!
 
Emilieu said:
This is exactly what i needed to hear :)

a) no riding is no problem. I just ride for fun anyway and its not fun if he is not happy
b) was intending on getting the hoof boots the same day shoes come off
c) if he can manage bf there is no way i will put shoes back on him.

Clava - I am a genuine moron. I have no idea why I didn't consider that. Told you my head is all over the place!
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Unfortunately vets and farriers will often say "That horse can not go without shoes" But if my boy can who had the most awful feet and paper thin soles, then I think most can!
Its not easy and we are still a work in progress after a year, but his feet have completely changed for the better!:)
 
pines of rome said:
Unfortunately vets and farriers will often say "That horse can not go without shoes" But if my boy can who had the most awful feet and paper thin soles, then I think most can!
Its not easy and we are still a work in progress after a year, but his feet have completely changed for the better!:)
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Yes this is what was worrying me. Both vets who came to him (same practice) said that he would 'never cope without shoes' and when I asked if this would be the case even if i retired him they said yes. But i couldn't really understand what they meant by 'wouldn't cope.' Would it just mean i would need to put the shoes back on or would my lovely boy be injured or worse by me removing the shoes???
 
I think they are saying that the horse would just be too sore and without the boots and pads in a lot of cases they would be right! But I have found that they do not seem to know much about the use of boots and what comfort they bring!
I could not have done it without them when my boy first had his shoes off as he was so sore!
 
Emilieu said:
Yes this is what was worrying me. Both vets who came to him (same practice) said that he would 'never cope without shoes' and when I asked if this would be the case even if i retired him they said yes. But i couldn't really understand what they meant by 'wouldn't cope.' Would it just mean i would need to put the shoes back on or would my lovely boy be injured or worse by me removing the shoes???
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They did that to me too, and I ignored them because there were so many posters on here that had managed it I thought why can't I too. I thought it would be easy but it isn't, but knowing that my horse is growing feet that suit her needs is far more satisfying.

Give it a bash, you don't know what will happen until you try it. the very worst that can happen is that you cannot cope and you get shoes put back on and have to consider sometime out of shoes every so often. The best is that you both cope fine, and soon ditch the hoofboots and are sound over everything you encounter.

Makes sure that you have the diet and minerals etc right and you should be ok.
 
My horse has navicular and roughening on the pedal bones , we did the remedial shoeing, which worked to start with! This made me feel that the vet had been right about shoeing, but sadly this was short lived and after six months things went downhill, shoeing was painful for him and the bar shoes had destroyed his feet!
 
I guess it depends on what your vets mean by not coping without shoes, and what you are willing to do in terms of managing access to grazing, diet and exercise to achieve your goal of having a barefoot TB.

We had my TB mare barefoot for a year, including 6 months where she was on loan to a very knowledgeable and dedicated barefoot person. From what I can gather the mare was basically confined to the yard most of the time, unable to eat grass without being footy, blowing abscesses, not really sound on all surfaces and this was despite really good management by someone who knows what they're doing.

Her back feet are fine barefoot and look really good but her front feet just weren't coping. She seemed very mentally flat, a bit sore and like she wasn't enjoying life so when she was returned to me I decided that such a restrictive regime was not mentally beneficial to her and put front shoes on her. I felt guilty for a while, like I could and should have done more but tbh she is a much happier horse with front shoes on and isn't that the main thing.

So in short, I agree, give it a bash and if it works your horse will benefit, but if it doesn't don't beat yourself up about it, as long as your horse is happy and comfortable!
 
Two years ago i was in exactly the same position you are now with my boys feet . I went against vets and farriers advice and i can honestly say it was the best decision ever . Its been a long road but i can now do anything and go anywhere on him . my saving grace were easyboot gloves and a book called feet first by nic barker, she also has a blog online called rockley farm where she rehabilitates horses back to barefoot .good luck with it all x
 
jazyju said:
Two years ago i was in exactly the same position you are now with my boys feet . I went against vets and farriers advice and i can honestly say it was the best decision ever . Its been a long road but i can now do anything and go anywhere on him . my saving grace were easyboot gloves and a book called feet first by nic barker, she also has a blog online called rockley farm where she rehabilitates horses back to barefoot .good luck with it all x
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Thank you :) I have the book and actually emailed Nic this morning with my query. I have been following the blog with interest - it is just so difficult to make that choice tho!
 
I agree it is, especially when your going against professional advice . All i can say is that i would go through it all again to end up with the amaizing set ov hooves he has now . i also added the advised suppliments to his diet recommended on page 105 and they worked a treat x hope things go ok for you both x
 
Emilieu said:
Good news tonight :) vet says boot and review in a month :) feel much better having his blessing. Cross your fingers for us please!
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Good for you, talking your vet around :D

Now, where are you and what size are his feet (PM if you like). One of us local barefooty types may be able to find you a set of boots to get you going until you know what size and type of boot you need.

We can probably estimate if you measure his shod hoof.
 
Oh thank you :) I think he's quite interested despite himself. Asked for pics and said he might pop in to see him.
Stupid question but do I just measure width and breadth? in inches? he has a poor wee bare foot currently sporting a duct taped nappy if it is better to measure that?
 
I have a feeling he's going to have wee feet :D When you're changing the pad and nappy, get a metal tape measure and a camera or phone. It helps if you have a friend along too :D

Pick up hoof and first of all put the wee tab of the measuring tape at the centre of the toe and then open the tape along sole of the foot all the way past the heels. Take a photo. Then move the tape so the tab is caught on the side of the hoof at the quarters. You are trying to find the widest part, so move it up and down til you get the biggest measurement. Take another photo.

The widest part is easy to work out (in mm is best) from the photos. You might need some help working out length because sometimes it's hard to judge where the heels actually are.

Let us know. I have some Old Macs (they are very very old Old Macs but they would get you going), I have some Gloves in 3.5 and 4. SKippy's Mum has a pair of Easyboot Trails in 6, I think, and she may also have some Cavallos she would lend you. All (bar the Gloves) are good for putting pads in.

The lady at HoofBootique is apparently excellent at advising on what size and type of boots to get.
 
good luck Emilieu, i took my horses shoes off last week against all professional advice, he had been rehabbing from a check ligament injury for 10 months ish, where the vet kept wanting more and more changes to his shoes, he was getting lamer and lamer and the final straw was when he told me he had swollen coffin joints, but wanted me to ride him for the ligament rehab.
Anyway I eventaully took them off, he was absolutely awful for 24hrs, thankfully i had boots and some danilon, and managed to hobble him (with boots on) to my nearest stable where he lay down, sweated, got up was weight shifting, ate him tea lay down, i was beside myself, I thought i still had the shoes and if he was no better in the morning i would put them on under his boots, anyway didn't need to, he was much much better in the morning and has improved daily, i have ridden him tonight - with boots, but he is much much improved, so my advice is be prepared!
I thankfully work with a group of tame vets, not horsey though and they wondered if he had such a reaction to the change in feel of his feet!! hope it goes well for you.
 
Comino said:
I would definitely go bare-foot. We took the shoes off our horses more than a year ago and we have not had any problems. We use boots when we hack out (gravel roads) - Cavallo and Renegades.
We trim according to the principles found in the Sweedish Hoof School and we make sure that the horses are not lacking vits and minerals. You can use a hoof-hardener to ease the transition. Take a look at The Sweedish Hoof School (warning: graphic videos) and you will never want to nail a shoe on again.
http://swedishhoofschool.com/
Click to expand...


I haven't looked at the videos, but if this is Strasser then it is effectively illegal in the UK.

Not only can you not cut functionality onto a foot, it is completely unnecessary. No trim should ever draw blood.
 
I see that your vet has approved boots for a month, so that changes things rather. I wrote this before I read the earlier posts, but I think that I will leave it unedited in case others are in your position or close to it and unable to boot for turnout.

original post :

Emilieu I am really sorry for your plight but if your horse has seriously thin soles then there is quite a lot of damage he could do to himself if he treads on stones. He could break edges off his pedal bone, and the point might remodel or disappear completely through bearing on the ground through the sole. At the best, he is likely to abscess and although it is a very, very small proportion of abscesses that do it, one in the wrong place can infect the badly protected pedal bone and cause life-threatening bone infection.

What I would recommend you to do is to put your horse on an absolutely perfect 'barefoot' diet for six weeks to try to improve his feet. If this makes no difference, then once again I would urge you to test for IR and Cushings. If it makes a difference, then you can go ahead with caution and remove the shoes.

I hope you find a solution. Foot problems are a nightmare for owners :(
 
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