If you can win a class, should you?

[SusieT]

Just noticed some people saying it's so annoying when people are just out to get trophies/prize money/win it.
Am I missing something? Is this not the point of competition? To win, not to just give whoever is 'genuinely' competing at their highest level a nice day?
Obviously in classes were people are eligible for entry.

 

[lilym]

I think people are more on about pot hunters, those who are well above the level of other competitors, i.e BSJA combinations doing the local 2'3" and always winning and HOYS qualified show ponies turning up at local shows and cleaning up.

 

[tasteofchristmaschaos]

I agree, I think it depends how easily you win. If you go in and KNOW you are going to win, I think you need to look again at if it is really fair to enter that class. However, if you go in and THINK you should win, that is a different matter.

 

[katie_and_toto]

Obviosuly it's nice to win, but for me it's all about experience and having fun with my pony

 

[QUICKFIRE]

But it is ohhhhh so nice when at local shows the HOYS show ponies turn up..........and we beat them Yaaaaaaay real good feeling

Yes we have had our fair share of pot hunters taking the goodies. But the we dont want to aspire to anything else because of the expence they go to to get to HOYS, so I suppose when we turn up with our family pony who may or may not be better than average, it upsets a few but with showing at local level its a case of some you win some you lose.

 

[katie_southwest]

Caribb - The point of competition is to compete against people who are the same standard, then it is fair.
So yes, we are saying that it is unfair for people to enter a class designed for novices when they clearly arent a novice and can compete much higher than that class

The point for some people, I guess, is to win, no matter what class etc.
I expect some people have not been in the position of being a bit rubbish, and therefore wont understand, but coming from someone who is competing at their highest standard (which isnt very high

) I dont expect people to give me a 'nice day' I just expect to be in a class with people of the same (roughly) standard

 

[Ziggy_]

Its annoying when the people winning the classes are clearly capable of competing (and winning) at a much higher level than what they are entering.

Like at my local shows for instance, the same person often wins the 2ft, 2ft3, 2ft6, 2ft9 and 3ft jumping classes. There's another (from the same family actually) who's often seen riding travers and half pass to warm up for the prelim dressage which isn't fair on the numpty riders like myself, who can just about sustain an outline in walk, trot and canter and would like to have a bash at some competitions. Unfortunately there's always at least four or five of these immpecably schooled horses in each class which puts the 'average' rider way down the list.

I'm sure another piddly little rosette means nothing to them but it would mean a lot to me!

 

[E_Lister]

[ QUOTE ]
But it is ohhhhh so nice when at local shows the HOYS show ponies turn up..........and we beat them Yaaaaaaay real good feeling

Yes we have had our fair share of pot hunters taking the goodies. But the we dont want to aspire to anything else because of the expence they go to to get to HOYS, so I suppose when we turn up with our family pony who may or may not be better than average, it upsets a few but with showing at local level its a case of some you win some you lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is EXACTLY what happened to me today! A class of very very expensive showjumpers vs my friend's gorgeous skewbald 15 year old cob. She completely thrashed the lot of them and looked like the only one that had a genuinely good time. As she left the arena and the boy on the other horse came back to his parents we heared them say... "as if you let that THING beat you..." hahahahaha! We had to hold my friend back from explaining the reason she won was because she had *ridden* her horse round the course, instead of letting the horse do everything and restricting the horse's movement!

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

The pot hunters spoil it for people but they just don't see it.

But revenge is sweet

- some years ago we took my neices new pony (I think we paid £200 for her) to a lcoal show and she went in the lead rein class on her - we had only had pony 24 hours - and she came 2nd beating 2 local HOYS ponys that had been bought for 15k and more. Mother of one pony was most put out at us - the fact her pony had just been doing a working hunter class with the same child on its back seemed to elude her..........

 

[skewby]

We have two "pot hunters" at our yard. One goes out to deliberately obscure and unpopular venues, rarely - i.e. she'll only go out when and where she believes she'll win (and she does). The other has an XC machine who she puts in the baby 2' classes and wins, when the horse can jump 3' with ease.

To be honest I just find it odd! There's something weird about not wanting to challenge yourself further but to prize a rosette over a good, challenging, stretching day out. I don't dislike them, I just don't "get" them and in fact feel quite sorry for them, as I don't understand what's going on there but it can't be good.

 

[dieseldog]

It doesn't matter how easy it is for you to win, it is how hard is the next level for you that counts.

You could have someone that will win 80cm classes all day long, but will get eliminated in 90cm as their horse wont do it for example. So should they never compete?

 

[Dubsie]

I do agree, which is why daughter won't be entering 1ft9 at a local RS monthly SJ on No 1 Litle Grey Welshie again, however next weekend she will probably be doing 1ft 9 on No2 LGW whom she's just started riding (and wil be subject to pony not doing another rodeo impression when she rides her tomorrow), and 2ft with both, 2ft 3 with No 1 LGW, which is far more of a challenge as she's only ever jumped 1 round clear at that height.

 

[starsky]

I did unaff novice dressage today and was very pleased - we came 4th

The winner got 79% and was nearly 10% ahead of 2nd. Sorry, but what is the point? Would that make you feel good or make you feel like you should be competing at a higher level? I would be embaressed if I won by that much.

Ditto above - shouldn't competing be against people of a similar level?

 

[spookypony]

[ QUOTE ]

You could have someone that will win 80cm classes all day long, but will get eliminated in 90cm as their horse wont do it for example. So should they never compete?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a good question, although at a certain point I'd be asking myself why my horse has that limitation, and if I could improve it.

I don't see the point either in consistently competing well below the combination's level---it ceases to mean anything. I see this all the time with horses in Prelim that are clearly beyond that level.

However, doing two consecutive classes, I understand fine.

 

[MrsMozartletoe]

Being of a competitive nature, I would be competing to win, but, there would be times when, for whatever reason, the horse might need to take it easy, etc., and in that instance I'd always be guided by the horse's needs.

If I were competing at a level below what I would normally be doing, I'd go HC as I wouldn't count it as a win if it weren't the right level of competition. The rosette etc would be meaningless.

I bought Dizz to BSJA. We will have a go at unaffiliated (someday!), but once we prove we're good enough, we won't be doing local RC etc. type shows.

There's every chance that daughter and I will be competing against each other, and we both know that the other will be out to do the best we can on the day

.

 

[hadfos]

I wouldnt class me and my lad as novice,but although we jump 3ft 6 at home,i have issues with courses

,however we dont go out and win rosettes,lol!!
I find it easy jumping 1 big fence but when faced with a 2ft 6 course they look huge

I would like to think i am competeing against people that are at the same level as me(either nervous or on youngsters),and i get seriously peesed off when people turn up on clearly experienced jumpers and go in all classes to clean up on the rosette trophy front!!
I go out to enjoy it,but the chance of you winning a rosette is taken away by somebody on an experienced nippy thing against the clock in a jump off

 

[FloydsMum]

[ QUOTE ]

To be honest I just find it odd! There's something weird about not wanting to challenge yourself further but to prize a rosette over a good, challenging, stretching day out. I don't dislike them, I just don't "get" them and in fact feel quite sorry for them, as I don't understand what's going on there but it can't be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Compleatly agree with the above, one or 2 warm up shows at the begging of the season can be excused, but continual pot hunting offenders I think is abit sad.
Saying that though some shows do limit the classes you can go in, I know shows were if your a member and you continualy win in a higher level classes you cant go back down, but depends on the organisors.

 

[itsme123]

It's something that's often annoyed me at local shows, hence why i try to aim for shows where I know the judges are fair.

My daughter's crowning glory came when aged 3 she won a M&M class at a local show on her rather scruffy but oh so cute 'cost less than a cheapo Ibiza holiday' pony. Not simply because she won, because to be fair there werent that many entries and it was just a tiny local show, but because a majority of the other entries belonged to an owner (yes, one owner!) who did showing full time affiliated. I'm a fair sportsperson and so i didnt smirk when one of their riders made a hasty exit from the ring on a bronking highly strung pony... and i wasnt beaming like a cheshire cat when she was pulled in first.
I'm rather thankful that our judges can spot these ponies and riders a mile off and arent impressed by the ribbon browbands and buttonholes (In a M&M class?) and judge the class on what it should be. Ordinary people, with ordinary ponies, making an effort.

On the flipside, i do enjoy a certain amount of competition, and it's nice to see people out who have made a true effort, who maybe have bought an unbroken pony and done the work themselves and read up on correct turnout. This year could be just their first year out, and next year they could be qualified for HOYS. I like that, I just don't expect them to be competing against my children after that.

 

[siennamum]

I have a 'friend' who regularly rings me up to tell me about the latest classes her daughter has won. The horses her daughter has are very nice competition horses, one of which is competing elem BD. For years she has had top trainers & has no expense spared.

The classes she competes in are never above 2ft 3, generally have a strapline like - may be led, or genuine novices only please. She enters them in walk & trot tests and showing classes for complete novices (horse has been to PUK) and she wins all the time... what a suprise.

It's really hard as it sounds like sour grapes to criticise but it's hard to put any enthusiasm into the congratulations. I can't figure out why they do it. She did win big prizes last year when she was first & 2nd in a minimus ODE (1ft 6 on a 16.2) but generally she just gets a rosette, it must cost less than the entry fee.....

 

[siennamum]

I think that the issue is whether it's challenging for you. I have no issue with people competing at the 'limit' of their comfort zone, it's exactly what I'm going to do with S when she's back in work. There's a challenge then and after all it IS supposed to be fun.

 

[beutifulwobble]

the best we have had is a good friend of mine rides at county and above and she was judging a local show. One class she failed to placce a young lady whose mother then tried to square up to said friend- again without realising that her precious angel had been conmpeting at the same county level shows as my friend and therefore really wasnt eligable for the novice young rider class she had now wasted her money on

to all of you who have had pot hunters just remeber there are sopme genuine comupences too

 

[PucciNPoni]

I find it REALLY annoying when people who I know for a fact are restricted from lower level classes and enter them anyway. I don't find it a problem when a horse and rider combi enter a class that they are top of, but just maybe not good enough or comfortable enough to go the next level up (so long as they aren't restricted).

For example, I've had my mare for four years - after a ten year break. She was green when I got her as a six year old and neither of us had done dressage. It's taken me four years -- two of those years with regular weekly lessons to get her trot work going to an acceptable level, and her canter work is just starting to come along, but it's still very onward bound, on her head, lacking bend. We are still competing WT dressage where we can, but as we've placed as high as 2nd with a score at it's highest of 65%, I feel we're bordering on doing prelim tetsts but not at a competitive level. However, if there's a restriction on the class, I would either do the WT as HC or just give the prelim a bash -- and get our butts kicked.

 

[bex1984]

No, you shouldn't enter, nothing annoys me more than pot hunting. Once you've won a class at a particular venue, I pretty much think you shouldn't enter it again. I went to a local fun show yesterday and didn't enter best mane and tail because we won it last time, and TBH Murphy's mane and tail are rather unbeatable...everyone was telling me to enter because we'd win, but I'm soooo glad i didn't because my friend won it and it was her first ever show

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you've won a class at a particular venue, I pretty much think you shouldn't enter it again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shhh, don't tell WFP he can't enter Burghley again, or Oli Townend that Badminton is now off limits

I honestly couldn't care less, if it makes you happy then fine. I don't see the point in never moving up, but equally I am waiting to be the subject of a nice ranty HHO thread as I am planning to take my Novice eventer to jump the 2ft6 and 2ft9 SJ classes at a local venue as he has had a crisis of confidence. I am perfectly capable of jumping 1.10-1.15 classes, and so is he, but not when he is so worried about any combination fences. Nope, I have no intention of entering HC - liklihood is he won't even get round, let alone placed, but I am eligible to compete and I know I won't ride in the same way if I am HC, so it kind of defeats the object. With any luck by the end of the winter he'll be back up at the 3ft6-3ft9 class, but I envisage a long, cold winter of jumping tiny fences ahead of us first.....

 

[Hullabaloo]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter how easy it is for you to win, it is how hard is the next level for you that counts.

You could have someone that will win 80cm classes all day long, but will get eliminated in 90cm as their horse wont do it for example. So should they never compete?

[/ QUOTE ]

But they would be competing at their level of competence - I don't have an issue with that. However, if they were also entering the 60cm class every time and winning that maybe it could be constued as pot hunting.

Personally, I enter a class because I want to try and win, but I also want to feel that I've achieved something so I don't see the point of entering a class just because I think I can win it easily.

 

[Hullabaloo]

[ QUOTE ]
I am waiting to be the subject of a nice ranty HHO thread as I am planning to take my Novice eventer to jump the 2ft6 and 2ft9 SJ classes at a local venue as he has had a crisis of confidence. I am perfectly capable of jumping 1.10-1.15 classes, and so is he, but not when he is so worried about any combination fences. Nope, I have no intention of entering HC - liklihood is he won't even get round, let alone placed, but I am eligible to compete and I know I won't ride in the same way if I am HC, so it kind of defeats the object. With any luck by the end of the winter he'll be back up at the 3ft6-3ft9 class, but I envisage a long, cold winter of jumping tiny fences ahead of us first.....

[/ QUOTE ]

But surely this is quite different from taking a novice eventer who is jumping consistently clear into these classes because you can get an easy win. Bringing him down a level or 2 to help his confidence seems perfectly sensible in the circumstances.

I think there are legitimate reasons why people compete their horses at a lower level, working on horse and/or rider confidence issues, horses getting older etc but I don't think "just because I can" is one of them.

 

[Hippona]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot hunters spoil it for people but they just don't see it.

But revenge is sweet

- some years ago we took my neices new pony (I think we paid £200 for her) to a lcoal show and she went in the lead rein class on her - we had only had pony 24 hours - and she came 2nd beating 2 local HOYS ponys that had been bought for 15k and more. Mother of one pony was most put out at us - the fact her pony had just been doing a working hunter class with the same child on its back seemed to elude her..........

[/ QUOTE ]

Last year my daughter won RC lead rein championship and in-hand classes with a £200 shettie- beating the 'proper' show ponies, using second hand tack and fairly cheap show jacket etc.....best part was not actually the rosettes and trphies but watching the pushy mums and snobby kids trying not to vomit when we were placed above them.

She's also done really well this year....pony cost a bit more (just over a grand, but nowhere near the silly money some people pay) .... but he was a scruffy green highland doing his first year out against the said 'show ponies' ......she's won a championship and got a reserve again.....goes to show, its not how much you spend but how you school/train your ponies and the effort you put in that counts......

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]
But surely this is quite different from taking a novice eventer who is jumping consistently clear into these classes because you can get an easy win. Bringing him down a level or 2 to help his confidence seems perfectly sensible in the circumstances.

I think there are legitimate reasons why people compete their horses at a lower level, working on horse and/or rider confidence issues, horses getting older etc but I don't think "just because I can" is one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it is - and I am perfectly happy with doing it. However, it is entirely possible he'll jump round nicely and clear, and how many people who write these ranty threads bother to find out exactly why someone is entering these classes week in week out? Sometimes it is pot hunting, but equally, sometimes there may be a perfectly good reason. Every since I found out about the 4* eventer who I kept coming up against in prelim unaff classes on established horses having had a spinal tumour and being told she'd never walk again let alone ride, and the fact she was learning to rebalance on a horse and not fall off every time it moved unexpectedly, I have become a lot more tolerant of people doing what others perceive as pot hunting. And just because you don't know the reason and the person doesn't seem to have one/won't talk about it, does not mean it does not exist.

 

[SusieT]

So the general opinion in this thread then is at a competition it really should be the most 'deserving' in terms of whether they paid least/haven't had much experience/are the least experienced that wins rather than the best combination on the day (in a class they are eligbile for-obviously those not eligible shouldn't be there)?
So those of you wanting people of a similar standard to compete against-presumeably so you have more chance of winning?
It is very interesting to hear the different views-thank you.

 

[spookypony]

Caribb, I don't think that's the general opinion at all. The way I read it, it's the best eligible combination, where many are arguing that eligibility standards need to be enforced more strictly.