If you can win a class, should you?

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So the general opinion in this thread then is at a competition it really should be the most 'deserving' in terms of whether they paid least/haven't had much experience/are the least experienced that wins rather than the best combination on the day (in a class they are eligbile for-obviously those not eligible shouldn't be there)?
So those of you wanting people of a similar standard to compete against-presumeably so you have more chance of winning?
It is very interesting to hear the different views-thank you.

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No. Obviously our ponies and riding deserve to win.....the judge wasnt aware of how much/little we paid for any of our stuff.
Its just nice to see that sometimes effort pays off rather than how much you spend......in that a 6k pony was beaten by a £200 quid one.

Effort and presentation won us the rosettes/championships....we didn't buy our way to them, is what I for one mean......and thats what makes it more meaningful to me.....that we were able to take a pigs ear and turn it into a silk purse, for want of a better expression.
 
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I honestly couldn't care less, if it makes you happy then fine. I don't see the point in never moving up, but equally I am waiting to be the subject of a nice ranty HHO thread as I am planning to take my Novice eventer to jump the 2ft6 and 2ft9 SJ classes at a local venue as he has had a crisis of confidence. I am perfectly capable of jumping 1.10-1.15 classes, and so is he, but not when he is so worried about any combination fences. Nope, I have no intention of entering HC - liklihood is he won't even get round, let alone placed, but I am eligible to compete and I know I won't ride in the same way if I am HC, so it kind of defeats the object. With any luck by the end of the winter he'll be back up at the 3ft6-3ft9 class, but I envisage a long, cold winter of jumping tiny fences ahead of us first.....

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Okay, but it doesn't sound like one weekend you're out eventing high level (and winning) and then the following weekend going to the small shows, winning, back to big events, winning and then scooping all the prizes at the small shows too.

I think we all have reasons why we'll enter a class or not. And winning is more fun than not. But I have watched people who are NOT complete beginners go in and absolutely clean up agains those that truly are, in classes that are specifically FOR beginners and to me, it's just not right.

If you are very experienced and enter a class that is OPEN and against beginners, well, it's open and so what.
 
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To be honest I just find it odd! There's something weird about not wanting to challenge yourself further but to prize a rosette over a good, challenging, stretching day out. I don't dislike them, I just don't "get" them and in fact feel quite sorry for them, as I don't understand what's going on there but it can't be good.

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I'm with you on this. When PF and I started to get REALLY good at the 70 and 80cm classes it started to get a bit boring; no challenge at all and that's not why I showjump
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I'm not particularly interested in beating everyone else (that IS a bonus though, if I know them to be good riders
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It doesn't matter how easy it is for you to win, it is how hard is the next level for you that counts.

You could have someone that will win 80cm classes all day long, but will get eliminated in 90cm as their horse wont do it for example. So should they never compete?

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Good point. However, IME a horse that is winning convincingly and regularly at 80cm (I'm assuming it's jumping clear) then its' pretty unlikely that it's going to be eliminated at 90cms. There could be a question of confidence though; I know of a girl here who does very well at 80-90cm and has been at that height for AGES, but just doesn't feel confident enough to go any higher.
 
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Okay, but it doesn't sound like one weekend you're out eventing high level (and winning) and then the following weekend going to the small shows, winning, back to big events, winning and then scooping all the prizes at the small shows too.

I think we all have reasons why we'll enter a class or not. And winning is more fun than not. But I have watched people who are NOT complete beginners go in and absolutely clean up agains those that truly are, in classes that are specifically FOR beginners and to me, it's just not right.

If you are very experienced and enter a class that is OPEN and against beginners, well, it's open and so what.

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No, but I will have been out last weekend doing Aff BE100, and completing, with 16 faults SJ (not everyone's idea of a helish round I know, but certainly mine!), and the horse has run in 2 novices this year with no more than 12 faults SJ, and will then be out asap doing 2ft6. The classes have no restrictions on eligibility.

TBH if someone is not eligible and you know it, then either suck it up or say something to the organisers and make an official complaint with the required fee - put your money where your mouth is....ranting on forums achieves nothing, though it may make you feel better!
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No, you shouldn't enter, nothing annoys me more than pot hunting. Once you've won a class at a particular venue, I pretty much think you shouldn't enter it again.

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Well, that's just unfair. That's like saying if you've won an olympic medal then you can't go to the olympics again, when the fact is there are so many variables and things that can go wrong that thee is absolutely no guarantee you will win again.
My uncle came to compete in my town in July. He had 2 cracking horses (one of whom he was reserve champion last year). He had just come from a string of HUGE wins and was hotly tipped to win again. Guess what. He didn't. In fact he had a rubbish show. That's SJers for you, eh?
 
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No, you shouldn't enter, nothing annoys me more than pot hunting. Once you've won a class at a particular venue, I pretty much think you shouldn't enter it again.

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Well, that's just unfair. That's like saying if you've won an olympic medal then you can't go to the olympics again, when the fact is there are so many variables and things that can go wrong that thee is absolutely no guarantee you will win again.
My uncle came to compete in my town in July. He had 2 cracking horses (one of whom he was reserve champion last year). He had just come from a string of HUGE wins and was hotly tipped to win again. Guess what. He didn't. In fact he had a rubbish show. That's SJers for you, eh?

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I suppose I really was talking about little local shows, especially ones were the same people go a lot. It really takes the fun out of it when you know who is going to win before you even start
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I think there are legitimate reasons why people compete their horses at a lower level, ...........
sometimes there may be a perfectly good reason. Every since I found out about the 4* eventer who I kept coming up against in prelim unaff classes on established horses having had a spinal tumour and being told she'd never walk again let alone ride, and the fact she was learning to rebalance on a horse and not fall off every time it moved unexpectedly, I have become a lot more tolerant of people doing what others perceive as pot hunting.

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'fraid I would maintain she should have gone HC. Presumably she had been practising at home and wouldn't have entered if she thought there was a good chance she was going to land in a heap in the middle of the arena. Given the experience of the combination I feel it's somewhat unfair on the genuine prelim riders.

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) Barry starts competing again (probably doing unaff walk&trot tests initially) having had his eye op, he will go HC because he has elementary points BD. If he goes well - as we would hope he would given that we made the decision that he was ready to go out again - then it would be embarrassing to hammer the genuine w&t competitors.

(and even more embarrassing if they hammered him
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I think there are legitimate reasons why people compete their horses at a lower level, ...........
sometimes there may be a perfectly good reason. Every since I found out about the 4* eventer who I kept coming up against in prelim unaff classes on established horses having had a spinal tumour and being told she'd never walk again let alone ride, and the fact she was learning to rebalance on a horse and not fall off every time it moved unexpectedly, I have become a lot more tolerant of people doing what others perceive as pot hunting.

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'fraid I would maintain she should have gone HC. Presumably she had been practising at home and wouldn't have entered if she thought there was a good chance she was going to land in a heap in the middle of the arena. Given the experience of the combination I feel it's somewhat unfair on the genuine prelim riders.

When (
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) Barry starts competing again (probably doing unaff walk&trot tests initially) having had his eye op, he will go HC because he has elementary points BD. If he goes well - as we would hope he would given that we made the decision that he was ready to go out again - then it would be embarrassing to hammer the genuine w&t competitors.

(and even more embarrassing if they hammered him
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Gosh I don't! Imagine what it must do to you mentally to be at the top of a sport and then be told 'forget the sport, you'll be lucky to walk again'. I would imagine your confidence would need all the help it could get, including seeing if you could be competitive at even the lower levels again. As she was eligible for the class I don't see the problem myself, and think it's really sad people are so judgemental as to think that she should have gone HC given the circumstances
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We're not talking about a horse issue (such as you have) here - they don't know if they're HC or not - we're talking about a rider who has had to relearn to walk and then ride from scratch. If she'd ben doing it on an injured horse I might be inclined to agree, but again, if the combination are eligible...
 
I think that the sorts of people who pot hunt, & who people take objection to are the sort who are out at a very low level - generally in classes which are for novice combinations or lead reins for instance.

Imagine the scenario where someone on a horse which is trained to medium, competes successfully at aff elementary is entered in a prelim class at a local show. Isn't that just plain pot hunting, the competition are all very amateur often young riders. There's no reason to compete except to win the rosette and they do win week after week in these classes often by a wide margin.

OR is it legitimate, there's no reason why that person shouldn't enter the class John Whittaker has been competing at the same level for years, noone accuses him of pot hunting......
 
I think if you are eligible for a class then go enter it. If the show is meant to be for lower levels the organisers can add more qualifying rules eg no BD registered horses.
I have a little horse who looks very smart in the warm up but it's a coin toss as to whether we'll complete a test.
I heard someone seeing my big E comment that will teach her to pot hunt and I really couldn't be arsed to point out the fact my little chap only saw an arena for the first time 2 years ago and is a total nervous spook monster.
Just go out and do your best and enjoy yourself, life's too short to worry about what other people are doing/thinking.
Flip side I won a local dressage league once years back and got flack for continuing to enter all summer, I was eligible and yes I won the league that one time. Why should I have quit when things finally went right for once? Yes we also got some huge scores to but if it's going right it's nice to be rewarded for it.
 
I go out with my horses to enjoy myself, couldn't care less where we come, obviously its great to come 1st.
The lady who won the prelim 10 yesterday has about 7 top notch dressage her horses she owns with her daughter, all a lot of money's worth!
She's bound to bloody win!
Her and her daughter love to win.
She was pi$$ed off at the show last week (ridden M+M) as her horse she was riding was only PB
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She moaned then that she wants trophies!
 
What about if it's a minimus class or a class for novices, but the organisers don't actually qualify what that means. Technically is it open to anyone?

I have no issue with people competing at a level they are comfortable with (I do this), and being highly competitive, but what about if you are competing at a level well below what you are capable of.....
 
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What about if it's a minimus class or a class for novices, but the organisers don't actually qualify what that means. Technically is it open to anyone?

I have no issue with people competing at a level they are comfortable with (I do this), and being highly competitive, but what about if you are competing at a level well below what you are capable of.....

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It's so hard to judge though, isn't it? After all, B and I are more than capable of doing more than 2'6" SJing - he got round the PN last sat after all - but it's doing him no favours plugging away at that height. However I never win rosettes, so damn it if I am eligible to enter competitively and get to take a ribbon home, then yay, all the more confidence for me.
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I entered a shed load of classes at the local RC show about a month after I got B back, and was 1st or 2nd in all of them, I knew I'd be there or thereabouts but didn't fancy anything which wasn't low key to start off back with him after a six month break and all the horrors of last year. So I suppose that ws pot hunting, but oh well, we had fun! They were the only rosettes I've won all year!!

I do see your point, but there is often a back story even if people don't know what it is, and even if the people in question would never admit to themselves there is one...
 
My horse has been there and done that.

I haven't......my jumping is [****], I've not done much of it at all and I have never competed.....

So if I took him in a minimus or such like he'd fly round...and as long as I didn't fall off and went in the right order then he'd most likely be up there and people would probably wonder why the hell I'd entered.....tricky isnt it?
 
I don't think it's pot hunting. If you went to all the local shows you could getto and repeatedly entered the 2ft 6 & won, year after year, whilst also competing successfully affiliated at Disco, that would be pothunting...
 
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I don't think it's pot hunting. If you went to all the local shows you could getto and repeatedly entered the 2ft 6 & won, year after year, whilst also competing successfully affiliated at Disco, that would be pothunting...

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I can't imagine wanting to spend the diesel money - what would be the point?! I have this dream where I compete successfully at Disco....2 years of BSJA membership...grand total of £16 on his card. No idea why I bother as am clearly hopeless!!
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It doesn't matter how easy it is for you to win, it is how hard is the next level for you that counts.

You could have someone that will win 80cm classes all day long, but will get eliminated in 90cm as their horse wont do it for example. So should they never compete?

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Good point. However, IME a horse that is winning convincingly and regularly at 80cm (I'm assuming it's jumping clear) then its' pretty unlikely that it's going to be eliminated at 90cms. There could be a question of confidence though; I know of a girl here who does very well at 80-90cm and has been at that height for AGES, but just doesn't feel confident enough to go any higher.

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No, there is at least one horse on our yard that has a genuine height limit. He's a fab little jumper up to 2'9" and unless you are pretty rubbish or make a mistake will go clear and quick. But it is a real struggle to get him round a course of 3' fences clear, though he can manage 3' as a single fence or the last fence in a grid. At 3'3" he'll bulldoze the lot.

Makes competing him difficult as at our RC the working hunter class is either a 2'6" novice or a 3' open.

As he's a riding school ned he's never the source of too much bad feeling, and occasionally helps you get one over on the posher looking combinations!
 
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It doesn't matter how easy it is for you to win, it is how hard is the next level for you that counts.

You could have someone that will win 80cm classes all day long, but will get eliminated in 90cm as their horse wont do it for example. So should they never compete?

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Good point. However, IME a horse that is winning convincingly and regularly at 80cm (I'm assuming it's jumping clear) then its' pretty unlikely that it's going to be eliminated at 90cms. There could be a question of confidence though; I know of a girl here who does very well at 80-90cm and has been at that height for AGES, but just doesn't feel confident enough to go any higher.

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I had a lovely horse a few years ago that could win 1m classes, he could jump clear the first round of a 1.10m but he never ever managed to jump a 1.10 jump off. He just couldn't do it. He jumped out of Discovery and that was it. Back then there were no Amateur classes so he basically had no future unless he went unaffliated as he couldn't jump BSJA anymore.

What would you have all done with him, left him in a field or jumped him unaffliated and be accused of Pothunting?
 
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No, but I will have been out last weekend doing Aff BE100, and completing, with 16 faults SJ (not everyone's idea of a helish round I know, but certainly mine!), and the horse has run in 2 novices this year with no more than 12 faults SJ, and will then be out asap doing 2ft6. The classes have no restrictions on eligibility.

TBH if someone is not eligible and you know it, then either suck it up or say something to the organisers and make an official complaint with the required fee - put your money where your mouth is....ranting on forums achieves nothing, though it may make you feel better!
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Personally, on an "open" class I expect there to be better, stiffer competition. I HOPE to see some really good dressage or jumping or whatever. Sometimes you get the inexperienced mixed with the very experienced, and that's great. I personally have no objections to that. If Carl Hester strolled up to our local shows on Moviestar for example, and competed at Prelim level which was deemed OPEN, I wouldn't care that it beat lots of novices on green horses or whatever. I just feel that fair is fair, and if the rules say "can't have won 1st, 2nd or 3rd at prelim" or "No BD points" etc...then that's what I expect to enter, unless HC.

I'm there too with the thought that I'd rather push myself and raise the bar a bit, go out of my comfort zone if necessary. I've spent far too many years NOT doing horses that I'm trying to cram it all in before I get too old (that's still a way to go, btw). But I don't desperate need rosettes to tell me that I've accomplished something. But I sure feel like I've earned them when I do get them!

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It doesn't matter how easy it is for you to win, it is how hard is the next level for you that counts.

You could have someone that will win 80cm classes all day long, but will get eliminated in 90cm as their horse wont do it for example. So should they never compete?

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Good point. However, IME a horse that is winning convincingly and regularly at 80cm (I'm assuming it's jumping clear) then its' pretty unlikely that it's going to be eliminated at 90cms. There could be a question of confidence though; I know of a girl here who does very well at 80-90cm and has been at that height for AGES, but just doesn't feel confident enough to go any higher.

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I had a lovely horse a few years ago that could win 1m classes, he could jump clear the first round of a 1.10m but he never ever managed to jump a 1.10 jump off. He just couldn't do it. He jumped out of Discovery and that was it. Back then there were no Amateur classes so he basically had no future unless he went unaffliated as he couldn't jump BSJA anymore.

What would you have all done with him, left him in a field or jumped him unaffliated and be accused of Pothunting?

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Well, personally if I had ambitions to go higher I would've sold him, but Ok, I get your point
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It doesn't matter how easy it is for you to win, it is how hard is the next level for you that counts.

You could have someone that will win 80cm classes all day long, but will get eliminated in 90cm as their horse wont do it for example. So should they never compete?

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Good point. However, IME a horse that is winning convincingly and regularly at 80cm (I'm assuming it's jumping clear) then its' pretty unlikely that it's going to be eliminated at 90cms. There could be a question of confidence though; I know of a girl here who does very well at 80-90cm and has been at that height for AGES, but just doesn't feel confident enough to go any higher.

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I had a lovely horse a few years ago that could win 1m classes, he could jump clear the first round of a 1.10m but he never ever managed to jump a 1.10 jump off. He just couldn't do it. He jumped out of Discovery and that was it. Back then there were no Amateur classes so he basically had no future unless he went unaffliated as he couldn't jump BSJA anymore.

What would you have all done with him, left him in a field or jumped him unaffliated and be accused of Pothunting?

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Well, personally if I had ambitions to go higher I would've sold him, but Ok, I get your point
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I did sell him, but the girl that bought him off me could only do unaffliated on a very experienced horse at 1m who couldn't jump bigger. You would have called him a schoolmaster as he was very good, but a lot of other people would have called the girl a Pothunter.
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The horse I have now is about £100 of Grade A and I'm doing 90cms on her. I am such a Pothunter!
 
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