If you had to bute your horse to do a particular activity...

maletto

maletto

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If, in order to do a particular activity (whether that be high level dressage, mounted games or showjumping), you had to give your horse bute, would this be right?

Is it common practice to give horses medication in order to be able to perform such an activity if they had chronic pain?

(whilst the idea of this posting came from another thread, it is not intended to be in a bitchy fashion, more out of interest)
 
I'm with galaxy on this one. I just would worry that I was doing damage or that the bute wasn't killing the pain completely and i was hurting her. I think the worry would outweigh the pleasure.
 
If I had to bute my horse AT ALL it wouldn't be out of the field full stop.

"If there is enough pain to warrant bute then there is enough damage to warrant resting the horse" sayeth my Vet, and what my Vet says goes as far as my horses are concerned.
 
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We used to bute my sisters pony as he had spavin, but then we saw sense, and as it was a long term thing, we took him off the bute and just warmed him in well. He was always stiff/uneven when first ridden but was still a lovely loony and really enjoyed his jumping after he'd warmed up.

I think liver damage/other issues with long term medication are far worse than stiffness when initially ridden, or low level disconfort for a field sound horse :)
 
That's kinda what I thought, just wondered because another poster said her vet advised her to bute her horse in order to showjump it. Wasn't sure about the ethics of that.

I have only ever used bute for short term purposes so wasn't sure.
 
i personally wouldnt, not to compete. i know a pony that has it to help him in everyday life, making it more comfortable for him but he is old and retired. depending at the level ur competing, the organisers and others do have the right to do drug testing so i wouldnt think it would be worth it x
 
Long-term bute use can have some pretty nasty side effects, or so I understand.

If it was a one-off sachet to enable the horse to have a quiet bimble about, for ex. after a knock in the field, maybe. But certainly not to do anything strenuous, and not long-term at all.
 
The only time I'd be happy about Kel being buted up is when she's on box rest or field rest - not to be ridden. If they need bute to be ridden, perhaps they shouldn't be ridden anymore :(
But just my opinion :)
K x
 
If it allows the horse to be more comfortable.

I don't think twice about taking painkillers before i exercise ect, if its going to help me loosen up.
 
Interesing post, I would say that I wouldn't bute simply for work purposes. when it comes to bute and field ornament in retirement, I can't say til I'm in that situation. Depends on the horse.

I come from an exam centre where it was unusual for a horse NOT to be on bute permanantly (sp) to work upto 4 hours a day...........
 
Dottie said:
If it allows the horse to be more comfortable.

I don't think twice about taking painkillers before i exercise ect, if its going to help me loosen up.
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I take painkillers to exercise too sometimes, for ex. when hill walking as I have issues with my hip. BUT the difference is that I am making an informed choice to do this, and I know it will hurt when the drugs wear off because I will have aggravated the injury while I couldn't feel it. Horses can't make that choice though.
 
Nope definatly not, if my horse needed bute he also needs a stable and a rest! I know some people do it and claim bute is just like Nurofen but I really disagree with this, bute masks the pain but don't ask me what Nurofen does :p
 
As Spudlet said - if we take painkillers to help us do some physical activity that is our choice and i don't think we should necessarily do the same for a horse. As my sister has said, my old pony was buted everyday for spavin and he was ridden and jumped as normal but then we noticed how the bute was having a detrimental effect n his liver so stopped giving him it. This was well over 10 years ago and there is so much more knowledge about these drugs now. I would never now treat a horse long term with bute and i can't see why anyone would want to compete or indeed ride a horse that required painkillers on a constant/regular basis to stay sound.

However, I have been guilty of doing it as I said - am glad I know better now though!
 
Nope and I think British vets are too quick to hand it out as well. I know more than one friend who basically has a stash of the stuff!! However, its illegal over here (or so I was told) - what does that tell you!?!
 
Maletto said:
If, in order to do a particular activity (whether that be high level dressage, mounted games or showjumping), you had to give your horse bute, would this be right?

Is it common practice to give horses medication in order to be able to perform such an activity if they had chronic pain?

(whilst the idea of this posting came from another thread, it is not intended to be in a bitchy fashion, more out of interest)
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No I wouldn't. Mind you I don't compete lol. Seriously though if a horse is in enough pain that it affects it's performance (or even that we notice!) then imo it shouldn't be competeing and probably be rested or have exercise tailored to it's needs for the injury/contition.

Human athletes are strictly controlled but they consent to performing with injury and can talk and say exactly how much pain/discomfort they are in as well as only affecting their own body. Competition generally requires higher level of performance so more strain on the body. I don't think it's right. No doubt there may be exceptions but my experience is perhaps too limited to think of any.
 
Katikins said:
Nope and I think British vets are too quick to hand it out as well. I know more than one friend who basically has a stash of the stuff!! However, its illegal over here (or so I was told) - what does that tell you!?!
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I think that may be to do with horses entering the food chain as much as anything though? Not sure if the Netherlands took up the derogation in the horse passport regs which we have here, which bascially allows horses to be given bute as long as Section IX of the passport is signed, declaring the horse unfit for human consumption at the end of its life. I know that keeping bute was a big issue for the UK when the reg was being drafted, not sure how widely the derogation is applied though in the wider European context.

**Removes Euro-geek hat**:o

I agree it can be used a little too readily though!
 
No! Absolutely not.

I hate taking pain killers myself, and wouldn't do it to a horse....

I would only use them short term....if my horse needed bute every day to make it comfortable enough to live then I would PTS....I would be too worried about how long they were in pain for between doses and how much damage would be done internally....
 
My horse has danilon everyday as it is better for him long term to stay in work than be a field ornament I take things easier with him but very occasionally I will give him extra and jump him, he has always loved it and is so happy doing it again. If he became unhappy and was on increasing doses then I would rethink but at the moment he is happy and I would have missed out on so much with him if he had just been put down.
 
No.

Painkillers do what they say on the tin - the kill pain, but they do not stop further damage occurring. Pain is a SYMPTOM of an underlying issue, and to mask the symptoms and carry on anyway is ridiculous IMO.

If a horse of mine wasn't sound to compete without painkillers at the top level, it would stay at the lower levels and within its comfort range. If it wasn't sound enough to compete at low levels, I'd stick to working gently at home. If it wasn't ok to do that, it'd hack. If it couldn't do that, it'd stay in the field. If it couldn't survive in the field without constant painkillers - well, as difficult as that decision may be, I'd rather PTS than kill it slowly by tearing its insides apart with drugs.

And there's no comparison to the use of painkillers in humans, IMO - we make the decision for ourselves. If we want to drug ourselves up and kill our bodies then fine. The horse doesn't have a choice.
 
I dont agree with it being used to mask pain in a riding horse for whatever activity but I cant see the problem of a sachet every couple of days in a retired horse. As long as they are happy in them selves, its got to be better than being dead. I do remember years ago an elderly boy who despite bute wasnt doing so well, losing weight etc, he was rightly PTS.
 
My old lad gets one sachet before and after hunting or competing, as he's 24 and rather prone to being an idiot and forgetting that he no longer has invincible legs!

This is a tricky one... some people may be against me buting him up, but my feeling is that he adores hunting and doing the odd little competition, and at 24 after a hard life as a puissance horse, if I can make him so happy and excited that he shakes when I pick up a hunting crop, and keep him pain free the day after, then I will do so.

I had a horse put down last year because she needed to be buted up every day to stay sound, and at 9yrs it wasn't fair to rot her insides with four sachets of bute per day for the rest of her life.


Rambling on... sorry!
 
Silmarillion said:
No.

Painkillers do what they say on the tin - the kill pain, but they do not stop further damage occurring. Pain is a SYMPTOM of an underlying issue, and to mask the symptoms and carry on anyway is ridiculous IMO.

If a horse of mine wasn't sound to compete without painkillers at the top level, it would stay at the lower levels and within its comfort range. If it wasn't sound enough to compete at low levels, I'd stick to working gently at home. If it wasn't ok to do that, it'd hack. If it couldn't do that, it'd stay in the field. If it couldn't survive in the field without constant painkillers - well, as difficult as that decision may be, I'd rather PTS than kill it slowly by tearing its insides apart with drugs.

And there's no comparison to the use of painkillers in humans, IMO - we make the decision for ourselves. If we want to drug ourselves up and kill our bodies then fine. The horse doesn't have a choice.
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I completely agree - we have a choice, they don't.
 
I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with the majority on this.
I had an arab gelding who competed at endurance at distances up to 100k until the age of 20. He then developed arthritis in his knees and had to retire from competing and hacking although was ok in the field without bute.
He became very miserable and withdrawn and after a year of seeing him like this, I made the decision to put him on bute and hack him gently. He immediately perked up and the further we went the happier he became. So I took him on some pleasure rides of varying distances up to 32k (20miles). Again, he coped with this and was very happy.
Unfortunately at the age of 27 he developed stomach ulcers, I'm presuming because of the bute. He was too uncomfortable to even turn out in the field without bute so the decision was made to put him to sleep.
I do not regret riding or competing him on bute as for the final 6 years of his life he was happy. Had I not given it to him, he might still be alive, bored and depressed in the field.
 
pain is there for a REASON !!! To block it out is fine if under vet advice, and the horse is not being asked to do anything that will further damage whatever is hurting.

But to bute up just to be able to ride/compete is wrong on so many levels. What happens if the bute wears off, or doesn't kick in ? what happens if it causes complictions itself ? Bute is a strong drug. Think human painkillers = constipation, ulcers, etc,etc. surely the injury will just worsen ? I saw this happen years ago on a friends horse with navicular, which resulted in agonising pain and PTS.

Would you go dose up on painkillers and go running on a painful ankle ?

sorry, minor rant there.. sm x
 
Maletto said:
Every day? really? would have thought you'd end up with stomach ulcers at the least! liver damage most likely...
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I take ALOT of pain killers and other meds everyday...just to get out of bed, thats not unusual.
However, I wouldnt keep a horse in the same condition. The only time I will/have ridden on bute is on veterinary advice. Certainly would not entertain competeing on it unless as a one off where bute has been given for something relatively minor. I know a few horses that have a lowish dose of bute daily and are still ridden, light hacking, this can be perfectly acceptable in my opinion and know that there are many circumstances where this would also be veterinary advice. Taking 2 ibuprofen a day for a human would hardly make them on deaths door or even classed as seriously ill. Same goes for a bute a day IMO.
 
I think we need to be aware that bute is not just a painkiller - it is an anti-inflammatory. If the pain is caused by inflammation, which in the case of something like arthritis,or a kick injury, is the case, then the bute works by reducing the inflammation, therefore reducing the pain caused. It is not a cure, it is there to assist. Personally I would not compete a horse on bute - not only is it unethical and morally wrong, it is against the rules! However if I had a retired horse in the field who needed one each day to make his day more comfortable, I would have no hesitation in doing that until the day came when he was too uncomfortable to carry on, and then the bravest decision has to be made.
 
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