If you have a very high level of testosterone ...

TheOldTrout said:
I think it was more that having a high level of testosterone is not the only advantage an athlete can have over others. (And Caster Semenya isn't actually male - she's hyperandrogenic.)
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Her DNA is male. She has testicles and she has no uterus or ovaries. In my view, that makes her a male. The only thing making her a female is her own self identification as female because of how her mother brought her up because she had no penis when she was born.

And your synopsis is the same as mine, said the other way round! Richer athletes have an advantage over poor ones so they shouldn't complain about a poor male running in a race for females.

I don't agree, whichever way around it is written!
 
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ycbm said:
Her DNA is male. She has testicles and she has no uterus or ovaries. In my view, that makes her a male. The only thing making her a female is her own self identification as female because of how her mother brought her up because she had no penis when she was born.

And your synopsis is the same as mine, said the other way round! Richer athletes have an advantage over poor ones so they shouldn't complain about a poor male running in a race for females.

I don't agree, whichever way around it is written!
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ester said:
Did you find the link that she is XY?
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As far as I can tell, everything that ycbm has said is supposition because the exact results of Semenya's gender testing were never released because of privacy laws.
 
I posted it ester, check back.

Yes it's hearsay.

I find the strongest argument that she has a Y chromosome is that unless my research skills are failing me there is no statement anywhere on the net that she does not.

I cannot believe, if she does not have Y chromosome, that this would not simply have been stated to shut the whole argument down.
 
Ah yes I see what you mean, I guess I was looking at it the other way, in that if she were XY there would have been no way she could compete as a woman.
 
The xy test got dropped after being challenged. This seems to be a fair report on the whole issue.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/29446276

I believe what they have to pass at the moment is a 'does she outwardly physically resemble a woman' test, which would pretty much allow anyone without external testes and penis to run as a woman. Including males who have had surgery and then self define as female. It's political correctness gone mad.
 
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I know the test got dropped but I assume it is still done when there is a questionable athlete to try and generate a whole picture to draw a conclusion from, it would seem ridiculous not to but then ;). they report back July 2017 as this issue was raised last summer so it will be interesting to see what the athletics people come back with.
 
I did a bit more exploration. Caster Semenya is married to a woman..

Caster may, of course, be a gay woman. But as a person with no uterus, no ovaries, and testicles that produce testosterone, isn't it just more likely she's a man and shouldn't have been allowed to run in a women only race?

The politically correct Emperor really, really is stark naked :(
 
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I read an article a while back about intersex athletes and some stories were very sad. One of the points it made was intersex is a relatively rare condition and that a disproportionately high number of intersex athletes have won medals.
 
This thread is really interesting OP. I began reading it as it is such a complex situation I wanted to see what other people felt about it and after reading all the links posted on here, I think on balance she should not be allowed to compete. Before I read this thread I wasn't sure what I felt.

ycbm, I got to the same point as you when I too heard she was married to a woman. But I'm not sure if thats us just jumping to conclusions and if it is any of our business. The whole situation is ghastly for her but something has to be done. As someone else said, I'm glad I'm not the one who has to make the decisions but somebody has to draw a line somewhere and I think the chromosome classification might be more workable than the testosterone levels.

For the people saying she didn't break the world record in the Olympics or win by a huge margin, I'm afraid I rather think that is deliberate on her part as she didn't want to create more controversy.
 
ycbm said:
I did a bit more exploration. Caster Semenya is married to a woman..

Caster may, of course, be a gay woman. But as a person with no uterus, no ovaries, and testicles that produce testosterone, isn't it just more likely she's a man and shouldn't have been allowed to run in a women only race?

The politically correct Emperor really, really is stark naked :(
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But again, everything you've posted regarding her biological makeup is hearsay and I do think it's important to remember that. As far as I understand it, Semenya underwent extensive gender testing in 2009 following her victory at the world championships. If the results were as straightforward as you say, she would not be able to compete as a woman, end off. Don't forget the IAAF doesn't want her to compete as a woman, so if they had definitive proof that she was ineligible then presumably they would have used it. It's not like she's just pulled the wool over everyone's eyes by passing herself off as a woman because she wants to.
 
firm said:
I read an article a while back about intersex athletes and some stories were very sad. One of the points it made was intersex is a relatively rare condition and that a disproportionately high number of intersex athletes have won medals.
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A disproportionately high number of athletes are intersex too, which is why it isn't a problem that will go away.

I'd agree re. I don't think she was going for the world record she raced pretty easy as far as can be told over a tv screen.
 
HashRouge said:
But again, everything you've posted regarding her biological makeup is hearsay and I do think it's important to remember that. As far as I understand it, Semenya underwent extensive gender testing in 2009 following her victory at the world championships. If the results were as straightforward as you say, she would not be able to compete as a woman, end off. Don't forget the IAAF doesn't want her to compete as a woman, so if they had definitive proof that she was ineligible then presumably they would have used it. It's not like she's just pulled the wool over everyone's eyes by passing herself off as a woman because she wants to.
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No, only the y chromosome is hearsay the rest is recorded all over the place. She has testes, she has no uterus and no ovaries. She's married to a woman. I'm not saying the results are straightforward but I am saying that being intersex does not make her a woman and she's running in women only events.

After testing, she was required to lower her testosterone levels to those produced by women athletes. And started losing. They've been forced by political correctness to drop that rule, as they were forced to drop the y chromosome rule.

I feel very sorry for her. The same way I feel sorry for blind people not being able to win an 800m gold medal. Life does not deal people a fair hand, but that doesn't mean women should be denied a level playing field to allow her to run.

Do you personally think she should be allowed to run in a women only race?
 
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In the interests of fairness I must add that the 2009 year report that she has internal testes and no ovaries or uterus was leaked and has not been made officially public.
 
This is such a gnarly subject and one I am glad I don't have to make decisions on.

My gut feeling is that they should not be able to run in a female only race. But, having discussed this with colleagues at work, there is a definite split between younger people thinking its acceptable (the argument being that there are always athletes with biological advantages-big feet, abnormally large hearts for example) and older ones thinking it isn't. I am not suggesting that is the case for posters on here but for me personally, I think I have to educate myself a bit more in gender issues I think.
 
I think she should not be able to run in a women only race. She is not a woman by any definition, as ycbm says there are things that do prevent you being able to do things that you may aspire to.
She could run in the mens race, not a problem.
 
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