Equus Leather
Well-Known Member
How would you deal with the increase in ballots?
If you were in charge of BE....
- Thread starter Equus Leather
- Start date
April86
Well-Known Member
Run more events?? Encourage events to run over more days? Or have some events run twice or three times??
Thistle
Well-Known Member
stop lowering the goal posts, the current problem has been caused mostly by 12 year olds being allowed to compete making the 2 events we have done this year seem more like PC events (my daughter is 16 and still a PC member). BE events are much less strictly stewarded than PC, kids need to be old enough to act responsibly.
She had to work hard to improve her dressage and also be able to consistently jump clear at PN level before I would consider BE for her, she joined aged 14.
She had to work hard to improve her dressage and also be able to consistently jump clear at PN level before I would consider BE for her, she joined aged 14.
lastresort
Well-Known Member
Agree with thistle my daughter can do PC ODE up to she is 16+ and then BE as she will benefit from the stricter rules with PC but not only that she does hate competing against adults anyway. Something needs to be done its getting out of hand , only hope it dies down later on in the season or theres going to be alot of upset people this year
Baggybreeches
Well-Known Member
I am kind of thinking along the same lines as you Thistle, but I think the problem is in that trying to cater for the masses, they are really a victim of their own success. Not defending BE, but you cant really blame them, there are far more events on now than there ever was, but with the lower levels over-subscribed to such a level, more events are going to run Intro and PN, as they are the 'money spinners'. I pay my registration for the insurance aspect mostly, eventing is my first choice discipline, but its not really the be all and end all, besides, I think I might have missed my olympic calling.
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
Alos agree with you Thistle. I personally feel that the minimum age is too low. 12 year olds IMO should be doing pony club, thats what its there for. You can happily go up to 3'6 at PC level (often their XC courses are more scary than BE novice courses!) so I dont see why they need to do BE at such a young age. I waited until I was 20 before doing my very first BE because I felt you had to be at a certain 'level' to do it, however Im wrong nowadays.
What on earth point is of introducing these other levels in between I have no idea! I mean a level smaller than intro is a just a joke.
TBH Im very glad I live in Scotland where I have (fingers crossed!) never been balloted to date. But then we dont have many events up here anyway so Id be seriously peeved if we balloted!!
What on earth point is of introducing these other levels in between I have no idea! I mean a level smaller than intro is a just a joke.
TBH Im very glad I live in Scotland where I have (fingers crossed!) never been balloted to date. But then we dont have many events up here anyway so Id be seriously peeved if we balloted!!
Baydale
Well-Known Member
I blame the pushy pony club mothers. I'M ONLY JOKING!!!
Thistle you're spot on about them being like PC events, I felt positively geriatric at Oasby! Why can't children stay children for a bit longer, then come out at 16 and give us oldies a run for our money?
Maybe it's the whole junior/U21 team thing that is requiring kids to be eventing trained from an earlier age.
I agree entirely with fatarse2 that BE are most definitely victims of their own success, and yet they need to run the lower level events to fund the higher echelons of the sport. If you talk to any organisers they would say they struggle to make money at an event (hmmmm?), so why would they want to run any more events?
I agree entirely with fatarse2 that BE are most definitely victims of their own success, and yet they need to run the lower level events to fund the higher echelons of the sport. If you talk to any organisers they would say they struggle to make money at an event (hmmmm?), so why would they want to run any more events?
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
How do they struggle to make money from events? If this was the case then surely they simply wouldnt run any! I cant believe they dont make quite a decent amount - for example, my first run is in early April, entries are still going in for it but already they have over 240 entries so thats 240 x mimimum of £55 an entry = £13,200! There's no way it can cost this much to pay for the judges, hire of equipment etc. Yes, of course they need to pay for course maintenence as well (but surely the £10 start fee would help) but some courses arent even very exciting...!
Baydale
Well-Known Member
I think there was an article in Eventing about the cost of running an event, I'll try and find it.
My comment was a tiny bit tongue in cheek.
My comment was a tiny bit tongue in cheek.
Equus Leather
Well-Known Member
I seem to remember someone saying it was at least £10k just for having ambulances on stand by etc..
i_should_be_working
Well-Known Member
I am planning to event this year and now looking at the BE diary there are reletively few events in my area. We have now lost Pepper Harrow, Dunsfold Rise, Petworth, Brokwood Park, Shamley Green, Wokingham, Aston Park and a couple of dates with Twesledown and Merrist Wood never seems to run (I know some of those events are very old but then so am I and its a good 10 years since I last evented regularly!) which means unless I want to travel for hours and hours I have only a couple to enter and all those ballot heavily. So as a non-professional who works full-time I have very little chance of getting in more than once per month and the chances are I will either be beaten by a Funnell, Fox-Pitt, Dick or a child. We used to have lots of unaffiliated 3' to 3'6" x-c and HT events too in our area but now they don't seem to exist either so I have no alternative to BE. I am sure Im not the only one in this boat and thats why the ballotting is so high!! UUUUURG
More courses needed in Surrey please
More courses needed in Surrey please
Bossanova
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
How do they struggle to make money from events? If this was the case then surely they simply wouldnt run any! I cant believe they dont make quite a decent amount
[/ QUOTE ]
Trust me, many events run at a loss. Thats why we lose so many. The ones that keep going are either able to use the course several times a year for more BE/ other events or can hire out the facilities regularly. The once a year events run on private land are very difficult to make money out of.
I dont think there's any easy solution to the balloting issue. I think it'd be wise for BE to consider raising the entry fee of intro/PN and lowering it at novice and above. It is invariably the lower classes which are balloted so we need more days of these classes but without taking away from time for the higher classes. I suspect that in a few years time we'll have even fewer intermediate/advanceds and many more intros at venues which run 3 or 4 times a year.
How do they struggle to make money from events? If this was the case then surely they simply wouldnt run any! I cant believe they dont make quite a decent amount
[/ QUOTE ]
Trust me, many events run at a loss. Thats why we lose so many. The ones that keep going are either able to use the course several times a year for more BE/ other events or can hire out the facilities regularly. The once a year events run on private land are very difficult to make money out of.
I dont think there's any easy solution to the balloting issue. I think it'd be wise for BE to consider raising the entry fee of intro/PN and lowering it at novice and above. It is invariably the lower classes which are balloted so we need more days of these classes but without taking away from time for the higher classes. I suspect that in a few years time we'll have even fewer intermediate/advanceds and many more intros at venues which run 3 or 4 times a year.
lifeslemons
Well-Known Member
I would echo what Thistle says. Boss is completely right... most events struggle to break even, even. It's a bit of a Catch 22 situation for BE. They keep lowering the goalposts to encourage/allow more people the chance to compete, since these are the people who fund the sport, but at the same time, fewer people are making it to intermediate and beyond as the heights of the fences and difficulty of all the phases rise in line with the increasing levels of professionalism and rising standards. This, in my opinion, is why there are so many people at intro and pre-novice, hence these issues.
Sunny_Star
Well-Known Member
I think that the minimum age should be raised, as I am 16 and at the moment I find that there are so many PC ODEs going that I don't even have to run BE to have a decent go at eventing.
However I have joined BE, but I am old enough to know what to do at an event and act responsibly. An average 12 year old is just too young for BE IMO.
Just wanted to defend pre-intro, I know many people think it is a waste of space, but I found the 2 pre-intro classes I did last year thoroughly enjoyable and they gave me a taste for BE without a lot of pressure.
I have joined this year because I enjoyed them so much, but will now be doing intro level
However I have joined BE, but I am old enough to know what to do at an event and act responsibly. An average 12 year old is just too young for BE IMO.
Just wanted to defend pre-intro, I know many people think it is a waste of space, but I found the 2 pre-intro classes I did last year thoroughly enjoyable and they gave me a taste for BE without a lot of pressure.
I have joined this year because I enjoyed them so much, but will now be doing intro level
SpruceRI
Well-Known Member
If they put the Intro/PN prices up any more then I and a lot of my 'weekend rider' friends will give up graciously.
I used to be able to compete in the 'Open' sections of Pony Club Horse Trials which used to give me a fair few to do throughout the year, but now none of them allow it, so for the Unaff grown-up there's little opportunity to compete in Eventing at a reasonalble height unless you bankrupt yourself.
I used to be able to compete in the 'Open' sections of Pony Club Horse Trials which used to give me a fair few to do throughout the year, but now none of them allow it, so for the Unaff grown-up there's little opportunity to compete in Eventing at a reasonalble height unless you bankrupt yourself.
LisaHughes
Active Member
It is virtually impossible for a BE event to break even without significant sponsorship - it isn't just the medical costs & course prep, its the BE fee, tents, signage, judges expenses, refreshments for judges & volunteers, admin, comms equipment, show jumps, loos etc.
Magic Magpie if you quadrupled the £13,200 you are talking about you still wouldn't really have covered all your costs if you are going to run a good event
Magic Magpie if you quadrupled the £13,200 you are talking about you still wouldn't really have covered all your costs if you are going to run a good event
keysoe
Well-Known Member
As an organiser I think that BE should do very little this season about the balloting issue.
Events need to run full (or very close to full) to make a profit - and if you dont make a profit, you make a loss, and few organisers love the sport THAT much.
I think the ballot needs to be thought of as "first choice".
if you have a weekend with three events, and all 3 ballot heavily, then you need either more days at those events, or another event that weekend.
if you have one heaving, and two taking entries, then a number of riders will need to move to their second choice event.
The alternative is that most popular event runs an extra day, and one of the others gives up - this would make the situation worst not better the next year.
You could use this to justify geographical ballotting - local riders at local events.
This also required BE to ensure that all events exceed minimum standards.
The only problem with extra days, is how to find 30 fence judges midweek - not easy
Events need to run full (or very close to full) to make a profit - and if you dont make a profit, you make a loss, and few organisers love the sport THAT much.
I think the ballot needs to be thought of as "first choice".
if you have a weekend with three events, and all 3 ballot heavily, then you need either more days at those events, or another event that weekend.
if you have one heaving, and two taking entries, then a number of riders will need to move to their second choice event.
The alternative is that most popular event runs an extra day, and one of the others gives up - this would make the situation worst not better the next year.
You could use this to justify geographical ballotting - local riders at local events.
This also required BE to ensure that all events exceed minimum standards.
The only problem with extra days, is how to find 30 fence judges midweek - not easy
Thistle
Well-Known Member
The trouble with that is by the time you know you are ballotted it is often to late to transfer to another event the same weekend, or you get charged extra.
mrussell
Well-Known Member
Hmmm.. tricky one...
I do feel that HC riders should be first out in the event of having too many riders... this is because there are plenty of unaff events if experiece is your problem.
I also feel that we need more days at each event , with prioirty given to non-pro riders for weekend classes.
Every membership should have a guaranteed 8 events a year. If BE cant do that then they should stop taking memberships until they can look after the members they already have.
The diary needs serious attention.... someone ballotted from Burnham would have had no chance of getting in at Witchie as the entries had already closed... so that means a wait until the end of May unless youve got access to transport to get you out of your region.
I do feel that HC riders should be first out in the event of having too many riders... this is because there are plenty of unaff events if experiece is your problem.
I also feel that we need more days at each event , with prioirty given to non-pro riders for weekend classes.
Every membership should have a guaranteed 8 events a year. If BE cant do that then they should stop taking memberships until they can look after the members they already have.
The diary needs serious attention.... someone ballotted from Burnham would have had no chance of getting in at Witchie as the entries had already closed... so that means a wait until the end of May unless youve got access to transport to get you out of your region.
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I think the ballot needs to be thought of as "first choice".
if you have a weekend with three events, and all 3 ballot heavily, then you need either more days at those events, or another event that weekend.
if you have one heaving, and two taking entries, then a number of riders will need to move to their second choice event.
The alternative is that most popular event runs an extra day, and one of the others gives up - this would make the situation worst not better the next year.
You could use this to justify geographical ballotting - local riders at local events.
This also required BE to ensure that all events exceed minimum standards.
[/ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with all of this IF:
1. You can do multiple entries and number them (say) 1,2,3 and then get allocated to an event and there is no financial penalty if you don't get into your first choice - this would require a complete overhaul of the entries system, and as BE only managed their own online entry system (ie not BDWP) last year, I don't see it happening any time soon - it would also require liaison between multiple organisers, and diff geographic locations would mean people entered 3 diff events. All in all sounds like a monumental headache for organisers/entries secs and competitors;
2. The going is guaranteed to be much of a muchness at all events - there is one very local to me event I just won't go to because i might as well build a XC course on the road and jump that the ground is always so hard there;
3. You don't want to do specific types of tracks - for example I try and pick long galloping tracks (like the stately homes one) over twisty ones as my horse finds them more to his liking and way of going. Equally, this season I want stiff novice tracks not easy ones, which again counts some events out for me. Can't see how you get round either of those issues.
So it's a nice idea, but I can't see how it would work in practice.
I think the ballot needs to be thought of as "first choice".
if you have a weekend with three events, and all 3 ballot heavily, then you need either more days at those events, or another event that weekend.
if you have one heaving, and two taking entries, then a number of riders will need to move to their second choice event.
The alternative is that most popular event runs an extra day, and one of the others gives up - this would make the situation worst not better the next year.
You could use this to justify geographical ballotting - local riders at local events.
This also required BE to ensure that all events exceed minimum standards.
[/ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with all of this IF:
1. You can do multiple entries and number them (say) 1,2,3 and then get allocated to an event and there is no financial penalty if you don't get into your first choice - this would require a complete overhaul of the entries system, and as BE only managed their own online entry system (ie not BDWP) last year, I don't see it happening any time soon - it would also require liaison between multiple organisers, and diff geographic locations would mean people entered 3 diff events. All in all sounds like a monumental headache for organisers/entries secs and competitors;
2. The going is guaranteed to be much of a muchness at all events - there is one very local to me event I just won't go to because i might as well build a XC course on the road and jump that the ground is always so hard there;
3. You don't want to do specific types of tracks - for example I try and pick long galloping tracks (like the stately homes one) over twisty ones as my horse finds them more to his liking and way of going. Equally, this season I want stiff novice tracks not easy ones, which again counts some events out for me. Can't see how you get round either of those issues.
So it's a nice idea, but I can't see how it would work in practice.
rubyslippers
Active Member
Agree with calendar overhaul. Agree that BE needs to ensure it can cater for its current members before taking on more.
Do lower classes dilute the sport in some way? Take a look at BD and BSJA. Does the existence of Prelim and British Novice compromise Grand Prix or Nations Cup classes? In addition children are welcome in both.
I wouldn't start a horse below PN - but I don't begrudge those who do. And to be honest, if you have that big a problem competing against 12 yr olds, perhaps you should make the move upto Novice. Why should Intro and PN be okay for old timers who don't want to progress, but off limits to kids who are, at the end of the day, starting at the bottom of the ladder.
I would encourage any child to compete at BE rather than pony club for two reasons:
1) It has a set structure designed to ensure that a rider is competent at one level before proceeding to the next. eg - 2 intros to enter a PN. The pony club has no such structure, so any child is permitted to enter any pony upto level 5 (1.10m)- equivelant Novice BE. By BE standards that child/pony combination would have had to complete 2 intros, 3 pn and a Pt or JRN befor being allowed to run in that Level 5 equiv. (Novice)
2) Pony club courses are, on the whole built by pony club dads. Well meaning, hard working volunteers, who very often have never so much sat on a horse, let alone jumped cross country! They get great ideas from events they've seen their kids at, then add a few imaginative extras. What horror it would cause if, instead of instructors, mums and dads were asked to throw a show jumping course up at rallies and camp?
I can't help but wonder why safety is deemed more important for our adult affiliated riders, who, by that level should know themselves a little of what will ride well, and often have trainers to advise, than for our pony club children, who very often have parents with limited knowledge, no trainer and little idea themselves.
It amazes me that the pony club are so feverish in enforcing inane rules about piping on numnahs and the colour of gloves, yet fail misserably to uphold the very basics of safety when it comes to course building.
Isn't it time BE took a leaf out of the BSJA book and employ some serious business minds to bring the structure upto date? Jackie Nightley had to fight against the old stalwarts of showjumping in order to bring BSJA into the modern world as a viable business - I only hope BE will be forced to do the same.
Do lower classes dilute the sport in some way? Take a look at BD and BSJA. Does the existence of Prelim and British Novice compromise Grand Prix or Nations Cup classes? In addition children are welcome in both.
I wouldn't start a horse below PN - but I don't begrudge those who do. And to be honest, if you have that big a problem competing against 12 yr olds, perhaps you should make the move upto Novice. Why should Intro and PN be okay for old timers who don't want to progress, but off limits to kids who are, at the end of the day, starting at the bottom of the ladder.
I would encourage any child to compete at BE rather than pony club for two reasons:
1) It has a set structure designed to ensure that a rider is competent at one level before proceeding to the next. eg - 2 intros to enter a PN. The pony club has no such structure, so any child is permitted to enter any pony upto level 5 (1.10m)- equivelant Novice BE. By BE standards that child/pony combination would have had to complete 2 intros, 3 pn and a Pt or JRN befor being allowed to run in that Level 5 equiv. (Novice)
2) Pony club courses are, on the whole built by pony club dads. Well meaning, hard working volunteers, who very often have never so much sat on a horse, let alone jumped cross country! They get great ideas from events they've seen their kids at, then add a few imaginative extras. What horror it would cause if, instead of instructors, mums and dads were asked to throw a show jumping course up at rallies and camp?
I can't help but wonder why safety is deemed more important for our adult affiliated riders, who, by that level should know themselves a little of what will ride well, and often have trainers to advise, than for our pony club children, who very often have parents with limited knowledge, no trainer and little idea themselves.
It amazes me that the pony club are so feverish in enforcing inane rules about piping on numnahs and the colour of gloves, yet fail misserably to uphold the very basics of safety when it comes to course building.
Isn't it time BE took a leaf out of the BSJA book and employ some serious business minds to bring the structure upto date? Jackie Nightley had to fight against the old stalwarts of showjumping in order to bring BSJA into the modern world as a viable business - I only hope BE will be forced to do the same.
TableDancer
Well-Known Member
I think Ruby Slippers talks a lot of sense. I event at all levels, and this year my 11 year old daughter has started - she and her 14 hand pony 36, clear, clear at B&W - IMHO it is a lot of the adults you see at Intro who are not fit to be allowed on a XC course, not the competent kids like her. Also, in our area (Wales) there are hardly any decent PC events so being allowed to do BE has opened up loads of new opportunities for her and those like her. The balloting is a pain but we all get by and it will almost certainly improve as the season progresses, it always has before. Incidentally, people who help at ODEs have a much better chance of beating the ballot than others, and the more helpers available the more event days can run...