Ignore top vets advice and take shoes off?

Topaz Tiger

Topaz Tiger

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My horse was pretty lame after Keysoe novice in early September.
It appeared to be in the fetlock area and there was some concern about an old suspensory injury.
We went to see Prof Smith at the RVC on Thursday.
She blocked out to bilateral lameness to both front feet and her fetlock.
Following scans and X-rays, the suspensory is fine, there is nothing obvious on the X-rays either.
Shes always had sensitive feet and we've competed her in equipak in her front feet this summer and that seemed to help.
The vet is suggesting rebalancing her feet slightly (not got details yet) and medicating her fetlock joint.
My problem is that I really wanted to give her feet a break from shoes over the winter, she can go footy after she's been shod if worked on firm ground and I wanted to see how she coped with no shoes.
Also to medicate the joint would suggest a degenerative condition, but the lameness that came on after Keysoe was sudden, acute and didn't resolve despite nearly 4 weeks rest.
So I'm thinking about taking her shoes off, fronts off already because of the X-rays on Thursday, giving her some time off and seeing what I end up with.
The degenerative condition (if that's what it is) wont worsen from rest and maybe nature will work it's magic on her feet.
What do you think? Am I being unbelievable arrogant believing I know better than a top vet?
Think my issue is they havent really found anything, so it feels like what they're suggesting is a bit general....
Ps now looking for a horse to loan to compete over the winter/next year if anyone wants a 5 star home, I won't be a loan horror story I promise! ;)
 
It would probably be worth talking to Prof Smith. It seems daft to pay all that for professional advice and just ignore it. If her feet need re-balencing anyway it might be something better done without shoes; or better with.
 
TT, I'm in a very very similar situation too, so look forward to hearing thoughts...my mare has had shoes off for 6weeks now and is actually doing really well, but MRI has shown lateral imbalance which my vet wants to address with shoeing, and I'm tempted to throw her out with no shoes for the winter to let everything settle and see what her feet want to do naturally....we will see....
 
Shay said:
It would probably be worth talking to Prof Smith. It seems daft to pay all that for professional advice and just ignore it. If her feet need re-balencing anyway it might be something better done without shoes; or better with.
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Ditto

I would think that the last thing you want to do with thin soles and sensitive feet is take shoes off. If you do decide to take them off you will need to be in in for a long time (6 months maybe more to regrow better feet) Not just a couple of shoeings.

The Prof is a prof for a reason, he is an expert with many years of training and experience.
 
Removing her shoes will give her hooves a chance to correct themselves and grow stronger and possibly start to balance her own feet if she comes sound enough to work, but you will need to address diet to for the best results :). Very few vets (even top ones) seem to be well educated in what can be achieved with barehooves and how they can improve.
 
Hi I'm actually going to try to arrange to see him on Monday, to go through the X-rays etc, as think these things are better done face to face, and I can then see the rebalancing suggested.
He is suggesting that if these things don't work, we then do an MRI and nerve block areas within her feet.
I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts/experiences at this stage, I'm not sure which way I'm going to go, so currently collecting thoughts/experiences from people.
 
Thistle said:
Ditto

I would think that the last thing you want to do with thin soles and sensitive feet is take shoes off. If you do decide to take them off you will need to be in in for a long time (6 months maybe more to regrow better feet) Not just a couple of shoeings.
.
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Why? When taking off shoes is exactly what can start the healing to grow thicker stronger soles? Sensitive hooves can also be treated with a closer look at diet, but if it is hidden by shoes it can't be fixed. Yes, it will take possibly 6 months to grow a new hoof but you will see changes / improvements long before that.
 
Hi KatB I saw your thread and saw you had stopped with the magic cushion etc. :(
I've rehabbed horses a couple of times against the odds, because I didn't blindly follow vets advice, but got together as much info as I could, before making a decision. :o
 
Shay said:
It would probably be worth talking to Prof Smith. It seems daft to pay all that for professional advice and just ignore it. If her feet need re-balencing anyway it might be something better done without shoes; or better with.
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Ditto this. Id probably be thinking along the same lines as you OP, so just suggest it to the vet and see what she says.
 
Clava said:
Why? When taking off shoes is exactly what can start the healing to grow thicker stronger soles? Sensitive hooves can also be treated with a closer look at diet, but if it is hidden by shoes it can't be fixed. Yes, it will take possibly 6 months to grow a new hoof but you will see changes / improvements long before that.
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I am about to take the shoes off a horse, again slightly against vet advice although he has said it is worth trying, he has had some remedial shoeing but we know what we are dealing with so slightly different to your situation. You need to have your farrier on side, mine actually suggested it before I did, it should help the soles strengthen, frogs should come fully into use which in turn will support her better but do look at the diet and feed her appropriately.
 
Clava said:
Why? When taking off shoes is exactly what can start the healing to grow thicker stronger soles? Sensitive hooves can also be treated with a closer look at diet, but if it is hidden by shoes it can't be fixed. Yes, it will take possibly 6 months to grow a new hoof but you will see changes / improvements long before that.[/QUOTE
This.
I just think I've been covering up the problem.... She's suddenly got a lot worse.... Why? Because I used the equipak? Thought I was doing the best thing for her. Also my instructors been studding her up for me at the last few events and she's been using slightly bigger studs than I have been previously...
So maybe she's jarred and sore.
Re diet, just taken her off top spec balancer and put her on forageplus. She's already on magnesium, msm, litovet, top spec high fibre cubes, top chop lite and unmollased sugar beet. :)
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I always have a healthy scepticism of all medical advice.... And am particularly sceptical of vets advising on feet.... Could u find a new farrier to give a second opinion? (i say new as existing farrier may just feel defensive over his existing work....)
 
Kelpie said:
I always have a healthy scepticism of all medical advice.... And am particularly sceptical of vets advising on feet.... Could u find a new farrier to give a second opinion? (i say new as existing farrier may just feel defensive over his existing work....)
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Good idea, he's ok to talk to, but can get a little defensive when I've tried to talk to him in the past about changing/improving things.....
 
I would think about changing her diet to assist her feet to repair themselves ( assuming that the problems are foot related)
I'm about the least 'natural fluffy bunny' person you could meet but through diet changes and supplementation I've managed to turn around the feet on a horse the farrier was struggling to nail shoes on to as they were falling apart. His soles were so thin you could flex them under thumb pressure. He's now shoeless behind and sounder than he was shod over stones. On grass and a surface he's moving amazingly well.
I have kept his front shoes on, because of the changes to his diet the quality of his hoof has improved 10fold even while remaining in shoes. So much so the farrier keeps on mentioning it every time he sees him. I think he thought I was mad at first ;)

Read Nics blog at Rockely farm, that's what inspired me.

Good Luck!
 
I'm pretty open-minded when trying to get horses sorted - I don't believe vets have all the answers (although I've found they often have an awful lot of them ;) ) and, although sometimes useful, neither do I believe that going barefoot is the miracle answer to curing all evils that some on here might have you believe :rolleyes:

I was in a similar situation last year with one of mine - sudden onset lameness after an event (but following a few iffy performances through the summer - but nothing you could pin anything on). Extensive (and expensive) investigations revealed a problem that would actually not have improved (or possibly could have been made worse) by going barefoot and/or turning away.

I would honestly go through all the diagnostics first (if you're insured or can afford it) so you know as much as you can about what you're dealing with. If it does turn out to be 'only' foot balance or thin soles (and not being flippant there) then I would agree that barefoot rehabbing could well be the answer. If, however, it's 'something else' then a different course of treatment might be better (as was the case with my now sound-and-back-eventing horse). If it's something like arthritic changes, turning away may not be the best course of action as being kept in work can prove more beneficial (and yes, of course, that could be done barefoot).

Good luck :)
 
Yes unfortunately she went lame so had her shoes off for x rays, then they stayed off before her MRI, and she has come pretty much sound but is in very light work...but her feet are changing a lot. My farrier is very supportive of taking her shoes off, and is open minded, so will have a chat with him too before deciding what to do, as the vets want to use their own farrier to look at her feet too...
 
I too am in a similar position and considering the same as OP. My horse was off last summer with front feet lameness. Had blocks and MRI, nothing significant. Pain relief injected into coronet. Remedial farriery for last year, improved feet immensely had a great season eventually.
Last month came in lame again (can hoon around alot) due to hard ground. Getting frustrated with having him off so much.
Can anyone give me specific advice on what I can feed to improve his feet? Its something I havent tried as I have to be careful with his feed. Sorry to butt into post OP. BTW what is equipak, not heard of it?
 
If the insurance would pay I might consider doing an MRI now, if not it doesn't matter waiting a bit.

I might then start from the point that my plan had been to turn the horse away over winter without shoes before this happened. Bearing in mind what he has said about foot balance, would an option be to stick to your plan but keep a careful eye and have regular checks on her feet but not be too aggressive with any treatment at this point.

If they have seen something on the xray that justifies medicating the fetlock then you could consider that otherwise ask if that is something that could be put off till you bring her back in and see where you are.

I actually had a similar conversation on Monday, shoulder not feet though and found him receptive to the point of view that sometimes an option is to stand back and do nothing, think my report mentions a 'conservative approach'.

What did he say about how she is landing? Toe first/heel first. I've had a few lameness work ups with Roger Smith and he usually picks up on this.
 
meardsall_millie said:
I'm pretty open-minded when trying to get horses sorted - I don't believe vets have all the answers (although I've found they often have an awful lot of them ;) ) and, although sometimes useful, neither do I believe that going barefoot is the miracle answer to curing all evils that some on here might have you believe :rolleyes:

I was in a similar situation last year with one of mine - sudden onset lameness after an event (but following a few iffy performances through the summer - but nothing you could pin anything on). Extensive (and expensive) investigations revealed a problem that would actually not have improved (or possibly could have been made worse) by going barefoot and/or turning away.

I would honestly go through all the diagnostics first (if you're insured or can afford it) so you know as much as you can about what you're dealing with. If it does turn out to be 'only' foot balance or thin soles (and not being flippant there) then I would agree that barefoot rehabbing could well be the answer. If, however, it's 'something else' then a different course of treatment might be better (as was the case with my now sound-and-back-eventing horse). If it's something like arthritic changes, turning away may not be the best course of action as being kept in work can prove more beneficial (and yes, of course, that could be done barefoot).

Good luck :)
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Hi thanks for that MM a very sensible and balanced reply. Think you're completly right, will get as much info as I can, before making my decision. Just not sure I've got enough info yet about whats wrong.
Interestingly, her SJ recently started to go downhill, she started to rush her fences, get in close, jump straight up in the air and then land on the other side on all fours. At the time I thought she was just being bloody minded because the fences had got bigger (its not a lack of scope), but now I wonder if it was her feet...
 
Hi criso
Ive only had a message left on my ansaphone from Prof Smith, hence think it would be worthwhile to see him and go through the xrays, as at this stage I don't even know what the imbalance is.
Prof Smith was brilliant when she did her suspensory, suggested a conservative approach and it paid off. So do feel a little mean/disloyal doubting him now...
Am sure I'll sure I'll know more on Monday and might also by then have a better idea some different avenues to explore as well....

Imonone, Equipak is filler they put into the feet, which protects the sole and distributes concussion through the underneath of the foot. It's expensive though, I was paying nearly £200 per set of shoes, with 8 studholes.....

One thing Prof Smith did say is that her right foot (which she did her suspensory on) was smaller than her left, but this was the same when her saw her in 2009 and there is some muscle atropy, so she is favouring that leg....
 
He is brilliant and I've always found him very approachable and open.

With Frankie's shoulder they gave me varoius options but because they have to give all the options, it didn't mean the most aggressive treatment was the best and all had pros and cons.

I did feel in the end we came to a decision together after discussing all the possibilities and everyone was satisfied with the approach so hopefully once you sit down face to face you'll have an equally useful discussion.
 
I had a similar scenario last year. Horse was lame, full work up (xrays, nerve blocks etc.) wasn't really conclusive, as in didn't find any cause however ruled a lot out. Opted against MRI due to cost and decided to take shoes off and turn away for the winter. She was out for 8 months with ad lib hay and a mineral block with a herd. Brought her back in and her foot balance had completely changed, her feet weren't a match and she was slightly pigeon toed. However she was perfectly sound. I've shod her since as she is footy out hacking and the farrier has left the natural balance of her feet as much as possible. She's been fine and is out showjumping successfully. So if you have the time it could be worth a shot.
 
I've got an older ex-eventer turned hunter who suddenly went lame this summer. A full lameness work up showed degenerative changes in his right fetlock. My vet at NEH said I could medicate the joint but at best I would only get him light hack sound. Horse is insured but I decided to go the old fashioned route (take shoes off, bung out for the winter)
A month down the line & he is definitely sounder. Vet came on Tues & thinks that by the spring we might be able to do more with him....I'm over the moon :)
 
That's really interestingly. I've been telling myself that degenerative changes would not have caused such sudden acute lameness, but perhaps I'm wrong then.....

glamourpuss said:
I've got an older ex-eventer turned hunter who suddenly went lame this summer. A full lameness work up showed degenerative changes in his right fetlock. My vet at NEH said I could medicate the joint but at best I would only get him light hack sound. Horse is insured but I decided to go the old fashioned route (take shoes off, bung out for the winter)
A month down the line & he is definitely sounder. Vet came on Tues & thinks that by the spring we might be able to do more with him....I'm over the moon :)
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TT, Frank's diagnosis was coffin joint DJD .. via time it took the nerve block as no changes on x-ray.

He certainly went from sound to lame in the space of a week.. he did stressage a few days before, although in hindsight his mediums weren't as good as usual.

We did treat the joint and bar shoe for a bit as his heels weren't great but he didn't come properly sound.

We took shoes off in March.. and have just returned from a trip to the beach ;) :D
 
I would MRI first before making any decisions - just no point in delaying the inevitable espec considering the fact that she 's had years of soundness issues now.
 
My horse kept going on/off lame for 10 months, had him medicated 3 times, had special eggbars on, etc. I was very tempted to have my horse go barefoot, turn away for 6 - 12 months and then see what would happen (or take him to Rockley Farm). That was before I took him to RVC, there they found it was just foot balance (nothing else was going on). Took his eggbars off and went back to normal shoes and within 2 shoeings I had a completely sound horse again.

Personally I would go with what the RVC have said, if it doesn't work within 6 months, go barefoot :)
 
I dont understand if there is no firm diagnosis why you are not continueing down the diagnostic route i.e mri and further nerve blocks?
 
Hi Susie T that's not what's being suggested at the moment.
Not know exactly what's wrong before deciding on a course of action is what I'm struggling with at the moment.
Hopefully things will become clearer when I speak to prof smith.
 
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