Illegal fences in warm ups

Ali16

Ali16

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Please don't think that this is sour grapes because we weren't placed ;)

Basically on Saturday at Merrist Wood there were a few competitors 'hogging' the warm up fences. As in at one point they actually turned the oxer into a bounce :eek: to practice before they went in (apparently their horse had never seen a bounce before).

There was also another competitor whose mother turned the oxer into a vertical at about 1.30m (a guestimation, but it was huge!). When we asked about the legality of it, we were called 'know-it-alls' :rolleyes:

The person putting a bounce up qualified too... Not a pro BTW.

I did politely point this out to the guy on the gate, but he was just too busy doing a brilliant job of getting people in and out but I think he did have a word.

I generally don't complain about stuff like this but it hindered lots of people's warm up & was just not a pleasant experience. We've all paid the same amount to be there, so surely we all deserve the right to a decent warm up without the fences being monopolised.

Has anyone ever complained to BE/BS about anything like this?
 
I think Charlimouse posted a similar thread about badly behaved professionals in the SJ warm up at an event towards the end of last season. It would be interesting to catch up with her on whether she contacted BE?

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=568866

I totally agree that it should be brought to the attention of the powers that BE (pardon the pun!). Rules are there for a reason, and it is not on that people are able to so blatantly disregard them. My horse would have seriously benefited from some canter poles or a placing pole but it didnt even cross my mind as it is against the rules!!

I think ERA could well be your best bet for routing feedback through to BE? try getting in touch with Kerilli???

xx
 
Its not sour grapes. The place to school is at home not a competition venue (the obvious exception being going to do an actual schooling round or taking a young horse out to see the sights). Complain to BE, preferably with the name of the competitor and ask them to start toughening up with processes in the warm up. It is not fair. I have asked people to leave the collecting ring at a BE arena as they were just walking around it chatting and there was a vast amount of space outside where they could do it. I was polite, just pointed out it was not fair on the people trying to just get their horses ready to go in when we had to keep going around someone who wasn't actually doing anything. They were a bit humpy and then left!
 
Luci07 said:
Its not sour grapes. The place to school is at home not a competition venue (the obvious exception being going to do an actual schooling round or taking a young horse out to see the sights). Complain to BE, preferably with the name of the competitor and ask them to start toughening up with processes in the warm up. It is not fair. I have asked people to leave the collecting ring at a BE arena as they were just walking around it chatting and there was a vast amount of space outside where they could do it. I was polite, just pointed out it was not fair on the people trying to just get their horses ready to go in when we had to keep going around someone who wasn't actually doing anything. They were a bit humpy and then left!
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I agree, with this!
I haven't done JAS for years but I remember there being a bounce (railway gates or something). I am also not shy of jumping massive fences but I would not jump 1.30 when warming up for JAS (or anything other than a Foxhunter/1.25/1.30 class TBH). It is downright bad manners and not 'in the spirit' of the competition even if it's not specified in the rules. The bounce issue could actually be a real issue from a H&S point of view, imagine if you could build doubles, bounces and combinations in the collecting ring? I am pretty sure that is not allowed!
 
I agree with the place to school being at home, warm up manners seem to be getting worse & worse :(
that said I was at a show once where the oxer was turned into a bounce for a short time. There was only a few of us warming up & the person doing it shouted.
'Guys we would really like to quickly skip through a bounce, I promise I'll put it straight back. Do any of you want to go through it'
and another person did.
The fence was quickly put back & then the helper stayed & altered the warm up fences for other people as well as her friend.

So whilst they did build an illegal fence they didn't pee anybody else off with their actions.

That's the crux isn't it, it's realising the warm up facilities are for EVERYONE
 
JCWHITE said:
Speak to the Judge.
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Haha! Without being rude, I'm not sure she had the foggiest idea what was going on ;)

At JAS I think the most likely person to be able to do something about it was the guy on the gate (can't remember his name...), but he was literally rushed off his feet doing the gate & putting fences back up in the ring.
 
But whose job is it to police these things? You don't have Stewards for things like JAS, do you? Do organisers have the power to warn and discipline? It's all very well to complain but if there is no one there to police the situation, and therefore no official observation/report then what actual recourse is there?

I'm not arguing, I think you have a very valid point! I've just always wondered how the honour system works when it doesn't work!
 
The last event I went to, the person on the gate was someone's mother. . .why is it a volunteer's job to get into a discussion like that? That person can not be expected to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules or the power to enforce them.
 
TarrSteps said:
But whose job is it to police these things? You don't have Stewards for things like JAS, do you? Do organisers have the power to warn and discipline? It's all very well to complain but if there is no one there to police the situation, and therefore no official observation/report then what actual recourse is there?

I'm not arguing, I think you have a very valid point! I've just always wondered how the honour system works when it doesn't work!
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That's why I'm dubious about complaining to BE really, as there really was no one there to do it.
 
I would report it to BE with perhaps a suggestion of what you would like to see happening - maybe a note on the website and in the magazine, plus in the schedule for next year saying 'we were informed of this happening at a JAS event, in the future the collecting ring steward will have the power to ask people doing this to report to the judge who has disciplinary powers including fines and elimination. If any competitor sees blatant flouting of the rules, please inform the ring steward with the numbers of the competitors involved'. Or some such?
 
I always drop the back pole off the oxer to make a vertical before i go in!! BUT this is to not interupt the people using the vertical which is normally at a smaller hight at that point !!

I use the vertical first then go to the oxer where i finish and i want to give my horse one vertical before she goes in the oxer is normally at the height i need so take the back pole off ??
 
SpottedCat said:
I would report it to BE with perhaps a suggestion of what you would like to see happening - maybe a note on the website and in the magazine, plus in the schedule for next year saying 'we were informed of this happening at a JAS event, in the future the collecting ring steward will have the power to ask people doing this to report to the judge who has disciplinary powers including fines and elimination. If any competitor sees blatant flouting of the rules, please inform the ring steward with the numbers of the competitors involved'. Or some such?
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Ok, good plan. I just don't want to seem like I'm going in guns blazing, criticising what BE do, because I so enjoy it... It did just mean that many competitors didn't get a proper warm up.

Tinks81 said:
I always drop the back pole off the oxer to make a vertical before i go in!! BUT this is to not interupt the people using the vertical which is normally at a smaller hight at that point !!

I use the vertical first then go to the oxer where i finish and i want to give my horse one vertical before she goes in the oxer is normally at the height i need so take the back pole off ??
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But is that vertical 20cm higher than what you should be jumping in the warm up? Because this one definitely was MUCH bigger than the height allowed.
 
Tinks81 thats completely different though. At BS we've sometimes used the oxer if theres only another in the warm up jumping and there doing something smaller than we require, and then normally swap over.

Building a bounce and stuff would never be allowed. At some show centres the secretary/organiser has moaned at people. Judges have too if the fences are getting too big in warm up as well (think 120ish for a discovery warm up!)

Been to a couple of BS shows where stewards have been but have no idea about JAS
 
I like Spottedcat's suggested approach. Years ago I had a nasty accident over a practice fence when someone pulled a placing pole out in front of an upright, I jumped it, horse missed and we both went head first into the wet sand warm up. Horse ended up with cut face and I ended up with a shoulder injury which meant I couldn't do the ramp on my lorry. We did though do the jump off and came third in a fairly huge jump off though my mother did go to collect the rosette and apologise for my not turning up for it. The judge asked if by any chance her daughter was the one covered in sand!

Probably shouldn't have jumped horse after going splat, but in those days young and foolish.
 
TarrSteps said:
The last event I went to, the person on the gate was someone's mother. . .why is it a volunteer's job to get into a discussion like that? That person can not be expected to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules or the power to enforce them.
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Urgh, don't! I got roped into 'helping' at a PC Tetrathlon a few years ago. NEVER EVER AGAIN!
 
Building a bounce sounds completely unacceptable, but jumping bigger than "allowed" is pretty much standard and I think that is absolutely fine, nothing to do with anybody else. When you go to decent shows and slightly bigger classes everyone pretty much does their own warm up and have people on the ground doing fences and it is never a problem, people are efficient and usually cooperate with each other. In my experience it is only really the small classes like a British Novice and Discovery that has a chaotic warm up, from then on people tend to know exactly how they need to warm up and have decent people on the ground to help with fences.
 
At BE they usually have the tapes on the wings though to mark the permitted warm up height for each class? If a fence is way above the tapes its quite obvious its an illegal fence. It is dangerous and its not fair on others warming up.
Personally if it was as bad as it sounds I would have popped my head around the office door and said sonething to the organisers. Agree it's not the poor person trying to get everyone in on time to also police the warm up. However the show centre staff do need to be aware and they won't be if nobody says anything. After that horrific accidental fatality of the young girl at the BS show, it goes to show that even in normal circumstances warm ups can be dangerous places. Let alone when some idiot has a 1m30 fence up for a 1m class or whatever.
All it takes is a polite 'thought id better let you know...' moment to the organisers.
Its all well and good saying something to BE but its a bit like closing the stabledoor after the horse has bolted. They may mention something to the show centre but maybe the show centre might appreciate the chance to sort out their own warm up before someone blows the whistle?
 
As long as you're quick and not hogging the fence for too long, and put it back to an appropriate height when you're done, i don't see why it is an issue to jump bigger than the class. My friend for instance has a horse who is spooky and not brave and he really needs to jump big in the warm up so that he thinks it is really easy when he goes in the ring, and plenty of people warm up along this principle. I don't really see how this is dangerous - if you don't like the height of a fence surely you just don't jump it until it's gone down.
 
I don't mind the high fences in the warm ups its the oxers that are so wide they're almost a bounce that terrify me, one time when I'm glad to be the skivvy not the rider!
 
little_flea said:
As long as you're quick and not hogging the fence for too long, and put it back to an appropriate height when you're done, i don't see why it is an issue to jump bigger than the class. My friend for instance has a horse who is spooky and not brave and he really needs to jump big in the warm up so that he thinks it is really easy when he goes in the ring, and plenty of people warm up along this principle. I don't really see how this is dangerous - if you don't like the height of a fence surely you just don't jump it until it's gone down.
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Yes but if your on your own you have a real problem when the fences are left too high...
 
wench said:
Yes but if your on your own you have a real problem when the fences are left too high...
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And in even more simple terms - it is against the rules! There are probably a lot of people whose horses would benefit from a taller upright before going into the ring but they don't do it because they are law-abiding citizens :) !
 
lex2501 said:
And in even more simple terms - it is against the rules! There are probably a lot of people whose horses would benefit from a taller upright before going into the ring but they don't do it because they are law-abiding citizens :) !
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I haven't read through all of the posts but it is definitely against the rules to have a warm up fence higher than the fences in the competition currently running
When I am Official stewarding I put tape on the practice fence at the competition heights so it is easy to see if anyone is breaking this rule.
 
There was no tape on the fences at all stating how high it should be for each class, which was half he issue I guess. But at all high level events I have ridden at and groomed at (up to 3*) we never put the fences higher than the tape.

Yes, we did say something to the guy in the office too, but he didn't seem hugely bothered, which is why we said something to the guy on the gate instead.

It's all about having someone to police it, who definitely has the authority and knowledge to do so.

I know that saying something to BE now is a bit late, but surely it's better than saying nothing at all and it happening again? And god forbid, some horrid accident?
 
I have complained at a BE, a know it all had his protege jumping a huge oxer backwards. SJ steward lady went over and had a stern word once I had spoken to her. Being a wimp I did it right before I went in :D
 
wench said:
Yes but if your on your own you have a real problem when the fences are left too high...
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Yes, absolutely - it would be out of order to leave it at that height, people usually put it down after they've put it up, though mostly the helper of next person wanting to jump the fence will take it and put it at the height they need.

I don't event, so BE might be totally different, but for BS it is absolutely common practise for people to put up a big fence or change it to the spec they need (people want different things, some only want square oxers, some don't, some want a ground line out, some under the fence etc) for a jump or two and nobody seems to mind as they usually do the same thing and everyone if fast and efficient with it. Can't say I've ever really seen tape to mark up what height a warm up fence can legally go up to, would be a bit fiddly and hard to implement correctly with 6 classes plus jump off running and the first horses in the next class warming up etc.

Long as you're quick, cooperative and considerate and change fence back to reasonable spec I think absolutely fine.
 
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